Civ 4 VS Civ 6

if the only way to make a game good is by modding it to the point of changing or removing every major game mechanic in it is it really the game that is good? I mean, how much of CIV5 is even left after that mod gets done with it?

Yes, I judge a game based on how it plays once I add the appropriate mods to it. With Civ4, I judge the game based on how well Perfect World (actually, Totestra, my fork of Perfect World 2) makes maps; I would not have bought Civ4 if I was stuck with its default map generators, since they make maps which do not feel realistic enough to appeal to me.

(except that about using hex tiles)

Hex tiles is the standard for strategy games like Civilization. Indeed, Sid Meyer used a hex grid in his mid-1980s game Crusade in Europe, and he seriously considered using Hex grids for Civilization I.

The problem with square grids is that we either need to give units a movement penalty for moving diagonal (this is what C-evo does), or we end up giving units an unfair “bonus” for moving diagonally.

I wish Sid Meyer had stuck with hex grids in the original Civ.
 
Sorry. But I fail to see how a unit is given an unfair bonus when it moves diagonally. Unfair to whom????

Fx 10 move"points" doesn't allow neither a human nor an AI to move more than 10 tiles. Not one single tile more.....


However I do recon that using a square-grid might "hurt" the eyes of the human player. But nothing more than that.
 
Sorry. But I fail to see how a unit is given an unfair bonus when it moves diagonally [...] using a square-grid

To quote the Wikipedia, “The primary advantage of a hex map over a traditional square grid map is that the distance between the center of each and every pair of adjacent hex cells (or hex) is the same. By comparison, in a square grid map, the distance from the center of each square cell to the center of the four diagonal adjacent cells it shares a corner with is greater than the distance to the center of the four adjacent cells it shares an edge with. This equidistant property of all adjacent hexes is desirable for games in which the measurement of movement is a factor. The other advantage is the fact that neighboring cells always share edges; there are no two cells with contact at only a point.”

When moving diagonally in Civ 4, a given unit moves 41% farther than when moving orthogonally (i.e. North, South, East, or West) but both moves only use one “movement point”. This is unnatural. Also, Civ 4’s pathfinder has this annoying way of choosing a “zig zag” path between two points when a straight path uses the same amount of movement. (Hex grids have the issue that moving east-west takes a little more time than moving north-south, but the error factor is around 16%, i.e. smaller than the 41% error we get on square grids; if more accuracy is needed, C-Evo makes diagonal moves use more movement points on a square grid, and the Heroes of Might and Magic franchise out right invokes Pythagoras when calculating movement distance).

There’s a lot I don’t like about Civ 5, but I believe they fixed a long standing annoyance with the Civilization series when they finally gave us a hex grid. Also, it’s easier to visualize a “fat hex” than a “fat T” for determining what tiles a given city can get food and resources from. Then again, I believe Civ 5 and/or Civ 6 no longer use a 2-square fixed distance to determine what tiles a city can work, but I haven’t played them enough to actually know; someone please correct me here.

I think limiting hexes to have only one unit in them in Civ 5 was excessive; I understand classic paper and cardboard war games tried to avoid stacking units for practical logistical reasons, and I think there should be a stacking limit, but it should probably be a number higher than one (I would had made it a number which modders can change and, if desired, make as small as one for simulations of small-scale tactical battles), especially since the Civ 5 and Civ 6 AI can’t handle 1 unit per tile very well. The reason Civ has traditionally had those “stacks of doom” is because one square represents an area hundreds of miles long (e.g. Perfect World’s huge map is 144 units east to west, so each square is about 170 miles long at the equator), and can fit an arbitrarily large number of military divisions.

Since it gets brought up when we have these kinds of discussions: The reason why Civ has never used an actual sphere for the map is because there isn’t a really good way to consistently tile a sphere. There is always going to be some point on the sphere where the tiling changes, altering the local tactics at that point on the map. One solution I have seen to this is to make the tiling inconsistent everywhere, but my favorite solution is to allow one to go north at the north pole, but when one does this, they end up halfway across the world at the north pole (and likewise, halfway across the southern edge when going south at the south pole). This is the same as a sphere in the sense that a coffee mug is the same as a doughnut.
 
Last edited:
What's written in Wiki about distance is surely right. - just it doesn't matter.

Because both the human and the AI have the same "background". I don't believe the human is able to use the squaregrid better than the AI (if the programming of the AI has been done in a decent way).


If something here is "unnatural" - well so be it.
 
Hex tiles are better from an equidistant movement perspective. The analysis really can't stop there though, because tiles were so intimately tied to many of the game's systems. Most importantly, city border pops, 1st ring, 2nd ring, etc., stopped making sense with hexes since now a full ring was more tiles than seemed reasonable. So they started adding one by one, based on a priority list that wasn't transparent (unless later patches made it clear, I only vanilla'd). So either you didn't know that priority list and were just left with ??? as to when you'd gain the tile you wanted, or you DID know the priority list and were frustrated that the game wanted to give you three crap tiles before the tile you really wanted. So then they let you buy tiles as well to try to mitigate this frustration, but buying tiles opens an entirely other can of worms. Too expensive, and it's meaningless. Too cheap and it supplants the normal growth and instant pops can feel very gamey. Tying the cost of buying a tile to other variables made this even harder to balance.
The other big problem that ties into this change is if cities are adding culture one tile at a time, then it's no longer this consistent tile culture spread emanating from the center. Without that, there was no culture warring with other civs in place, where you could both share culture on a tile and the one with more culture banked into the tile currently owned it. So they locked borders into a first come first serve system (sans great artists/generals later). That was pretty upsetting, dynamic borders basically gone. But what's worse, having first come first serve in place AND allowing you to buy tiles is begging you to lock in border tiles ASAP regardless of whether those tiles are immediately useful, justifiable based on your cultural output, or intuitively make any sense at all. There exists a motivation to make a border city look like this: |---o (of course those wouldn't be straight lines, because they're hexes - an aesthetic downside with hexes that no one ever mentions)
This may have generally been too expensive, but I think that varied from 5 vs 6 or by patch, and by civ, and it may have been cheaper to buy tiles earlier in the game than later :crazyeye:

So I would disagree on the one change generally cited as definitely an improvement. Going from square tiles to hex tiles overall made the game worse. The gains made by eliminating the diagonal problem were more than offset by needing to entirely rework the culture system.
 
Yes, I judge a game based on how it plays once I add the appropriate mods to it. With Civ4, I judge the game based on how well Perfect World (actually, Totestra, my fork of Perfect World 2) makes maps; I would not have bought Civ4 if I was stuck with its default map generators, since they make maps which do not feel realistic enough to appeal to me.
Thing is, we modders can mod pretty much any game to be pretty much anything you or I want it to be. Just look at the weird and wonderful world of DOOM mods. They literally made a Sonic inspired cart racer out of it. Why? Because they could. So judging a game based on what mods can do with it is honestly pointless. You might as well be invoking god and saying that if god can fix it than its a good game.

Now, I will agree that the mere existence of a strong modding community is an indicator that the game has potential. A game that can not stand on its own without any mods it is unlikely to ever get the sort of vibrant modding community in the first place. But still, I can't agree with judging it by anything beyond that which was envisioned by the actual game developers when they made it.
 
cities are adding culture one tile at a time

I haven’t played Civ 5 or Civ 6 enough to comment on its culture system. What I am proposing is Civ 4 rules, but with hex tiles. Culture will be simpler than it is in Civ 4; every time we get a culture boost, the city simply adds another outside ring of hexes to its culture. I would keep the “fat T”, but I would make its shape a large hex (a 5x5 hex-shaped hex grid) consisting of all tiles 1 or 2 spaces away from a city, which is more intuitive than the “fat T”.

You might as well be invoking god and saying that if god can fix it than its a good game.

There’s a big difference between a mod which could potentially be made and a mod which actually has been made and is readily available for download. I judge a game based on the mods it actually has, not on imaginary mods which could in theory be made for it.

And, yes, I am a fan of Doom mods. I like FreeDoom and the Oblige random map generator.
 
There’s a big difference between a mod which could potentially be made and a mod which actually has been made and is readily available for download. I judge a game based on the mods it actually has, not on imaginary mods which could in theory be made for it.

And, yes, I am a fan of Doom mods. I like FreeDoom and the Oblige random map generator.
Case in point: https://mb.srb2.org/threads/srb2kart.25868/

Would you judge DOOM based on that?
 

Yes. It shows that DOOM is incredibly flexible, and can do all kinds of games the original creators did not envision.

Every mod out there only adds value to a given game (even if a given mod were rubbish, there’s nothing making you play a rubbish mod, and a mod doesn’t stop you from playing the original unmodded game. That said, this mod does not look like rubbish at all).

I would love to see you make some mods for CIV4. Even if they aren’t perfect, they would enhance the game.
 
Yes. It shows that DOOM is incredibly flexible, and can do all kinds of games the original creators did not envision.

Every mod out there only adds value to a given game (even if a given mod were rubbish, there’s nothing making you play a rubbish mod, and a mod doesn’t stop you from playing the original unmodded game. That said, this mod does not look like rubbish at all).

I would love to see you make some mods for CIV4. Even if they aren’t perfect, they would enhance the game.
Well you have my art packs. That's a start.
 
Top Bottom