[Civ 5] Rise of Mankind design discussion

[JDexter]

Let's hope you're getting along with it well, zap. Civ V will be hopefully pretty cool, but compared to RoM it'll be a small, "simple" game

Exactly, it's really a pathetic view to look at the Civ5 tech tree when playing RoM on Civ4. There's just sooo much missing from vanilla Civ! I'm very much looking forward to play your first "expansive" mod of Civ5!

 

[NBAfan]

Hay Zappara, are you going to finish 3.0 before you move on to Civ 5 modding?

 

[Civ Fuehrer]

One technology that I think was never even thought of to be put in the tech tree is the electron to photon energy transfer for means of powering machines. Since computers is one of the most helpful and entertaining pieces of hardware invented in the past few decades, people are always trying to make it run faster and make it smaller. Recently physicists and engineers alike have foretold of a limit on computer chip size & speed. Reason for this is that electronics require transistors and resistors that can litter a computer chip and make it only be able to be oh so small. One proposed solution to making computer chips smaller and slightly faster is to ditch electricity for light. As photons don't require as much regulation in the form of transistors/resistors, it would be possible to make a computer the size of a piece of dust with over a few petabytes of RAM/hard drive and a few petahertz of processing speed (over simplified and slightly exaggerated yes, but I get my point through).

Another thing about using photons in replacement of electricity, is that it is overly abundant from the sun and photons don't suffer the same distance penalties as electrons do over wires. So it would be considerably safer (and blinding if a power line breaks) and less expensive to maintain.

 

[fox456]

I'm sorry, but I can't figure out how to delete this post. Where is the delete button!?

 

[fox456]

I would definitely like to see religions added in the official Rise of Mankind mod for Civ 5.

Also, I'm not sure of the different ways a person can win the game in Civ 5, but methods involving religious expansion, financial success, and scientific prowess would be awesome to include in ROM if not already in the game.

(One other thing since it was mentioned above)

Hay Zappara, are you going to finish 3.0 before you move on to Civ 5 modding?

... I was wondering about this too. My hard drive failed and I lost all my modded files for Civ 4. I decided to just wait until 3.0 came out before downloading anything again. But I got the impression from something that I read that 3.0 is a dead project. Does anyone know for sure?

 

[Hydromancerx]

We're getting just about every day more info about Civilization 5 features so I guess this will be good time to start the designing phase of Rise of Mankind -mod for Civ 5. At this point it is irrelevant who will make the mod but I'm sure it will be made.

As you may know I originally spent 7-8 months in designing the tech tree for Rise of Mankind and when redesigned it 1 year later it took another 2 months to make. Now for Civ 5 this task will be much simpler since we can use the stuff from RoM's BtS version but there's many techs that I discarded because I didn't have stuff to fill them but since there's so many RoM modmods we could get some ideas for new techs...

Phase 1: Designing new tech tree

Some things to think about:

• What techs should be included?
• Tech amounts for all eras should be in balance
• Unique Civ specific techs?
• Hidden techs (found through wonders or random events)?
• If you suggest techs, think about what objects those would hold, units, buildings, wonders, etc. We don't want to include empty techs (first draft will probably hold some techs that will be deleted before mod release).
• How important was this tech for humankind's progress?
• Multiple tech trees vs. One tech tree?
• Transhuman era should be like in RoM - not too much scifi / unreal stuff, rather stuff that has prototypes in our world and what most likely will be discovered in next 30 years

If I'll make the Civ 5: Rise of Mankind, then I'll reserve the veto right to include/exclude whatever techs I want but I'll heavily base the techs on discussions here.

Phase 1 ends when Civ 5 is released as then we actually can see what's possible with that game.

Ok I have through a lot about this and I think we need to think big from the get go. There was so much that could have been done before and after the eras that were in RoM so I am going to suggest we use good old Empire Earth eras since they not only cover the entire scope of Civ but beyond. Here are the eras in order ...

Prehistoric (500,000 - 50,000 BC)
Example Techs: Hunting, Gathering

Stone Age (50,000 - 5,000 BC)
Example Techs: Stone Tools, Cave Painting

Copper Age (5,000 - 2,000 BC)
Example Techs: Agriculture, Animal Domestication

Bronze Age (2,000 BC - 0 AD)
Example Techs: Bronze Working, Currency

Dark Age (0 - 900 AD)
Example Techs: Iron Working, Smiting

Middle Ages (900 - 1300 AD)
Example Techs: Heraldry, Chivalry

Renaissance (1300 - 1500 AD)
Example Techs: Gunpowder, Invention

Imperial Age (1500 - 1700 AD)
Example Techs: Navigation, Matchlock

Industrial Age (1700 - 1900 AD)
Example Techs: Industrialization, Railroad

Atomic Age (1900 - 2000 AD)
Example Techs: Fission, Space Flight

Digital Age (2000 - 2100 AD)
Example Techs: Computer Networks, Virtual Reality

-----
Possible Future Ages
Biotech Age (? AD)
Trans-Human Age (? AD)
Nano Age (? AD)
Glactic Age (? AD)

These are just some ideas. Let me know what you think.

 

[strategyonly]

I agree with the above, also Johny Smith is working on an era/tech for Civ 5 also in a different thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=375930

 

[Arakhor]

The Copper Age was just a different name for the later Neolithic era in some parts. You certainly don't need the Prehistoric era, considering that any technology at all (pretty much) will boost you into the Stone Age.

 

[zappara]

I think we shouldn't put the game start further than 10 000 BC ie. about the time when last Ice Age finished. Another point is that around 70 000BC the human population suffered from some kind of cataclysmic event(s) that reduced the population to couple thousands (they survived in Africa, somewhere on Ethiopia's areas) and we all are descendants of those people - so 70k BC is the absolute limit but I still think 10k BC is better choice when thinking about the fun factors and gameplay and when thinking about human history (when first "cities" appeared, 10 000ish people in one spot etc).

The amount of eras depends really on how many techs we add. If Civ 5 tech tree works the same way as Civ 4 then each era should have equal/similar number of techs and thus the techs really decide how long the eras are and how many eras we'll get.

I've been thinking that the tech tree should be made this time in such way that it supports expansion ie. there's enough room on each era for various misc techs that can be distributed with optional modules (if the module system is available).

As a side note, it will take probably a year or longer before we actually have enough new graphics (units/buildings etc) available for all the RoM stuff that we'll add to the new techs...

 

[strategyonly]

I think we shouldn't put the game start further than 10 000 BC ie. about the time when last Ice Age finished. Another point is that around 70 000BC the human population suffered from some kind of cataclysmic event(s) that reduced the population to couple thousands (they survived in Africa, somewhere on Ethiopia's areas) and we all are descendants of those people - so 70k BC is the absolute limit but I still think 10k BC is better choice when thinking about the fun factors and gameplay and when thinking about human history (when first "cities" appeared, 10 000ish people in one spot etc).

The amount of eras depends really on how many techs we add. If Civ 5 tech tree works the same way as Civ 4 then each era should have equal/similar number of techs and thus the techs really decide how long the eras are and how many eras we'll get.

I've been thinking that the tech tree should be made this time in such way that it supports expansion ie. there's enough room on each era for various misc techs that can be distributed with optional modules (if the module system is available).

As a side note, it will take probably a year or longer before we actually have enough new graphics (units/buildings etc) available for all the RoM stuff that we'll add to the new techs...

Have you looked yet at my Prehistoric RoM/AND/NWA? Its actually pretty good, and i have all kinds of extra room in the beginning (just incase)

 

[Soddball]

I would definitely like to see religions added in the official Rise of Mankind mod for Civ 5.

If it is possible to get religions in to the game, what'd be a 'nice to have' is a schism system. Just as religions split now, so they should in the game. For example, the great schism between east and west led to the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox church. The RC later schismed, of course, and produced Protestantism. Sunni and Shi'a variations of Islam are another example.

Since the various factions of a religion would much rather fight each other than someone else, it could lead off in exciting directions.

 

[Soddball]

I think we shouldn't put the game start further than 10 000 BC ie. about the time when last Ice Age finished. Another point is that around 70 000BC the human population suffered from some kind of cataclysmic event(s) that reduced the population to couple thousands (they survived in Africa, somewhere on Ethiopia's areas) and we all are descendants of those people - so 70k BC is the absolute limit but I still think 10k BC is better choice when thinking about the fun factors and gameplay and when thinking about human history (when first "cities" appeared, 10 000ish people in one spot etc).

The earliest you would want to go, I'd guess, would be about 8000BC. The reason I say that is that cities were extremely scarce before that date. They could only survive in extremely fertile areas. I would be inclined to stick to the 6000BC start date, simply because it's impossible to pick out any significant powers before that date.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The Copper Age was just a different name for the later Neolithic era in some parts. You certainly don't need the Prehistoric era, considering that any technology at all (pretty much) will boost you into the Stone Age.

Well the prehistoric would be more of a nomadic part where you would have to like discover techs from "goody huts" that could led you to the stone age and then in turn lead you to making a city that would allow you to research techs. In short the beginning part of the game (prehistoric) you would not even get a city to found or be able to research anything yet.

As a side note, it will take probably a year or longer before we actually have enough new graphics (units/buildings etc) available for all the RoM stuff that we'll add to the new techs...

Well I don't think that the graphics should limit us. The icons can always be made easily and quickly but the units themselves would be more difficult. However I think we should make units even if they look the same in appearance. So what if say an arbalest looks the same as a musketman or a javelineer looks the same as a spearman. As long as they have diffrent stats, icons and names then they should work.

The same goes for buildings. I actuality prefer that new buildings don't have 3D meshes since it takes up less room in the mod. All you really need is the stats, icons and names in the city for a building.

Once they are made then later people can come in a make meshes for the units or buildings. And by then the units will already be in place, tested and can be balanced.

 

[Arakhor]

And why is that fun, Hydro? I can't build cities or conduct research or basically do anything other than move around.

 

[Hydromancerx]

It would allow you explore your area before starting the game. If anything its more realistic than just plopping a city down at the begging of the game. Perhaps this very early part of the game could shape what type of civilization you become. Such as starting out as a barbarian civ and then when you found your first city you get to become a specific civilization based on which techs you discovered while wandering around.

 

[Civ Fuehrer]

As a side note, it will take probably a year or longer before we actually have enough new graphics (units/buildings etc) available for all the RoM stuff that we'll add to the new techs...

Again, as I've said to Afforess before is that I've been taking and still am taking 3D Animation classes. This means you place the order, I'll model/attach it to the skeleton/texture it and possibly even do the CiV image art that replaces the CIV buttons. The only thing I wouldn't know how to do yet(mostly because I don't know how it's being handled yet) is doing custom animations. Of course I still have my own mods to make and my own models for those mods, but I'll be more than happy to help make graphics for the next iteration of RoM.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Some things to think about:

• Unique Civ specific techs?
• Hidden techs (found through wonders or random events)?

I have been thinking about unique techs and hidden techs. Perhaps you should have era specific techs that will disappear if you go to the next era. Thus players who streamline to the next era will not get all the benefits of that era.

As for hidden or civ specific I have some ideas for those such as ...


(Concept Drawing by Hydromancerx)

This would be an alternative timeline where the South American mega-fauna never went extinct and Inca and other South American civs domesticated ground sloths and terror birds to be their mounts since they don't have horses in South America.

Other ideas would be "Steam Punk" tech, "Da Vinci" tech, no dark ages tech and other alternative timeline situations where existing history takes a slightly diffrent path. For instance in the no dark ages tech you would jump right to the Renaissance and not loose old ancient techs that say the Romans once had. Or "Steam Punk" tech expands upon industrial age technology without going into the modern age yet.

It would also be neat if you could have even diffrent era trees where your not always going down the same linage era path. This could be more interesting for future eras too since history for that is not written yet.

Here is a chart i quickly drew up to show what I mean.



As you can see with the blue that's our normal timeline. The green ones are like the Aztecs where they went into an Obsidian Age and then were conquered and hurled forward to the Imperial Age. Likewise I have ones that go backwards such as Atomic Age to Post-Apocalyptic and then back to like Dark Ages. I think it would be really cool if you not only could take a diffrent era path but possibly have to redo eras because of apocalypses.

 

[strategyonly]

I think it would be really cool if you not only could take a different era path but possibly have to redo eras because of apocalypses.

I have been wanting to do something like this, since the game "Heroes" (I, II, III, IV) which has a "Black" tech tree to follow and a "White" tech tree to follow, each in a path of its own (of course after going through so many tech to get to that point, then you choose which path to take).

Plus it would be GREAT if they had an "OverWorld" and a "UnderWorld."

 

[zappara]

Tech/Building icons are not a problem - we can use existing building graphics for any number of buildings and change the graphics for each building when they become available just like I did first in Civ 4: RoM. For techs I had to make lots of new icons and I converted bunch of Civ 3 tech icons from mods - getting these isn't really problem Only units is the part that will lack graphic choices for new unit types as well as for new ethnic units but then again, we first need the new tech tree before we can add other stuff so units can wait...

@Civ Fuehrer

Before I give any requests, you can check what unit types Civ 5 has and then check what RoM has and start making those unit classes that we're missing in Civ 5.

Some fun new units could be Roman Scorpio and Onegari and Da Vinci's tank...

Edit: I'm still undecided how I want to implement units for Civ 5: RoM... since we're limited to one unit per tile, I might use one idea if it's possible to use in Civ 5...

 

[last skunk]

Tech/Building icons are not a problem - we can use existing building graphics for any number of buildings and change the graphics for each building when they become available just like I did first in Civ 4: RoM. new tech tree before we can add other stuff so units can wait...

Edit: I'm still undecided how I want to implement units for Civ 5: RoM... since we're limited to one unit per tile, I might use one idea if it's possible to use in Civ 5...

I'm excited to get back to old civ, zone of control combat but the rest of civ v is so bad and dumbed down I'm scared. apparently it was designed for a 12yr old, the wii and a 80 inch plasma, still you can finish a game in four hours now, it's sad.




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