Eh? No, I'm not.
Civ 6 Deity Tier List –– discussing DLC civs now, R&F civs starting 2/19
- Thread starter Ornen
- Start date
Eh? No, I'm not.
Kongo is the most underrated civ in this game, they are German tier if not better (Sumeria and Scythia are just broken right now).
I will copy my post from other topic:
What makes kongo OP is more like:
Neighborhood 2 eras earlier that cost half the price to build and gives 2 food and 4 gold so you don't even lose the tile yields.
It has +100% GPP generation for Merchant, Musician, Artist and Writers. (Brazil gets 20% for everyone IF you manage to get the GP).
Each Great Merchant you get, Kongo gets 2, and merchants are amazing.
Jungle AND Forest start bias, you get higher average starting yields and can chop stuff for days and a more defensive terrain.
And the most stupid broken bonus ever:
The +2 food +2 production +4 gold from some types of Great Works would be fine If it did not Double on theming, Seriously, getting +12 food +12 Production +24 gold +18 culture +18 tourism that don't need to be worked to get the yields, from a single archaeologist is just nuts.
You get like 6 tiles worth of pop working, each giving 2 food 2 production 4 gold 3 culture 3 tourism without needing any extra tiles/population. Just broken.
I think Kongo is right there with Germany if not better, but still < Sumeria/Scythia, just because they can kill you before you get your stuff online.
I will copy my post from other topic:
What makes kongo OP is more like:
Neighborhood 2 eras earlier that cost half the price to build and gives 2 food and 4 gold so you don't even lose the tile yields.
It has +100% GPP generation for Merchant, Musician, Artist and Writers. (Brazil gets 20% for everyone IF you manage to get the GP).
Each Great Merchant you get, Kongo gets 2, and merchants are amazing.
Jungle AND Forest start bias, you get higher average starting yields and can chop stuff for days and a more defensive terrain.
And the most stupid broken bonus ever:
The +2 food +2 production +4 gold from some types of Great Works would be fine If it did not Double on theming, Seriously, getting +12 food +12 Production +24 gold +18 culture +18 tourism that don't need to be worked to get the yields, from a single archaeologist is just nuts.
You get like 6 tiles worth of pop working, each giving 2 food 2 production 4 gold 3 culture 3 tourism without needing any extra tiles/population. Just broken.
I think Kongo is right there with Germany if not better, but still < Sumeria/Scythia, just because they can kill you before you get your stuff online.
Kongo is super late game, the problem is not evaluating the bonuses per se but how the meta is right now, at that point of the game if you can spam culture you win either way and you dont care anymore of production, why would you need production and food when you going for culture? Its a great bonus out of contest but for the meta and the victory condition is not that great.
And same for forest and building kongo residences on there, its too late game, forest is good for other stuff in game pace, you chop, you build lumber mill, keeping indefinitely them there for eventually some more citizen isnt the meta, it does indeed get super great but in a way it doesnt matter.
Kongo has very little sinergy with its bonus if you combine them and how the game is played, while every single bonus is great.
So Kongo is good, but definitely not even remotely top tier.
And same for forest and building kongo residences on there, its too late game, forest is good for other stuff in game pace, you chop, you build lumber mill, keeping indefinitely them there for eventually some more citizen isnt the meta, it does indeed get super great but in a way it doesnt matter.
Kongo has very little sinergy with its bonus if you combine them and how the game is played, while every single bonus is great.
So Kongo is good, but definitely not even remotely top tier.
Ornen
Warlord
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Strongest leader listed for civ
We've discussed this one a fair bit already. Read the thread.
Why super late game bonus?
Forest/Jungle Bias comes as early as you click Start game
Kongo Neighborhood is Medieval era, like feudalism and industrial district. The snowball you get when you start to build the neighborhood earlier is amazing.
Your UU comes at just the right time to make you survive those horseman rush, not a late game bonus.
Double merchant points kicks in with Comercial district and you build a LOT of those, making the 200% GPP even better.
You start with 5 GW slots while other civs only have 1, this alone is huge in the early game to use those artistic GP that are almost always useless for other civs, if you played any civ with bonus GPP for artist/writer/musician (kongo gets 200% on those) you know the GW slots is a pretty hard cap for these GP and how much +4 culture or +4 faith is in the early game.
The only mid to late game ability is Archeologist for theming artifacts, but you can do fine without them earlier by using relics from some martyr apostles (you get one extra apostle each time you build a theater district / neighborhood) or sculptures from Great Artists. The bonus for theming museum is just insanely good.
My point is that I FEEL you are saying:
"Early game domination is the easiest way to win, therefore it's the only valid way. So we should only base the list purely on that criteria."
And if the argument is that only early game aggression is the best way to guarantee a good start, that ignores scenarios where either:
Early game aggression sets you up for a good mid game- then mid game abilities like hanse kick in and you can have your cake and eat it.
or
Early aggression works whatever civ you play.
or
Early aggression doesn't work because too many of the opponents are isolated, which is important because not every game is played on Pangea.
Pericles isn't on the original list, though. You might want to fix that.
So it's really just the combat bonus that edge him just a bit above the lowest tier?
Yeah but you rush industrial and production, I never rush neighborhood, sure I build it as soon as I need, but I never really need it that fast and most of all not in all cities...
But I never haave a problem with horsman vs AI... xbows are just too good, xbows are like lasers in medieval era...
The rest ok is good but too late to matter as you think it does, I repeat the bonuses are great, but too late to make it OP.
Im
I'm still not sold on the other bonuses other than the +5 although that's good I don't know that it makes Teddy better than France. I've won both a Domination and Science victory with Teddy as well as a Science victory with France. Cathy's double spy is IMO leaps and bounds better than the +5 on Home Continent. If Teddy is C tier I'd make the argument that Cathy is C tier as she is able to focus Commerce/Industry/Theatre before Campus and achieve tech parity with deity AI.
First and foremost this is a tier list.
Regarding your scenarios, early aggression does set you up for a good mid game and those civs who have a stronger early game have a clear advantage by then. Scynthia will have a better cake than Germany for example and this holds true for continents.
Tamir Lenk
Chieftain
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One problem I have with Russia relates to the tundra start. Sure, you can make great use of those tiles, but your start bias comes with extra barbarian problems. Namely, having to allocate resources to deal with barb camps from the nearby ice tiles that even Russia cannot settle or develop.
Also, Rome is amazing. Free roads, early culture boosts, a swiss army UU that rocks until gunpowder and baths
Also, Rome is amazing. Free roads, early culture boosts, a swiss army UU that rocks until gunpowder and baths
Mr. Shadows
Nomad of the time streams
Personally I don't think that I (or anyone, really) has had enough time to rank the civs with real confidence. Having said that Russia is an extremely versatile Civ. Religious victory is rhe most obvious, but they can also generate loads of writers, musicians and artists if they focus on culture. Religious and culture vicotories are the long way around for them though; they can easily buy a huge army using faith in Theocracy. I also think Teddy is vastly under-appreciated. The continental combat bonus is all he needs to dominate his continent early snowball into any VC he wants. I haven't played Germany yet but my intuition tells me that the hansa comes too late for it to be as strong as some are claiming.
CaiusDrewart
King
I think I'd put India Tier D. They compare very unfavorably to Kongo; the Stepwell is a decent source of Housing but I'd rather have the Mbanza.
The Varu is pretty powerful, but also slow. You can stack the -5 combat penalty but with the 120H cost and 3 maintenance you probably don't want to spam these things. The proper comparison is probably with the Legion rather than the Horseman (remember, India can still build Horsemen as well as Varus):
--The Varu and Legion have 40 strength and 2 movement
--The Varu costs 120 hammers to Legion's 110, but the Varu has a 100% production policy card available, the Legion only 50%
--The Varu has -5 strength to adjacent units, which can stack for multiple Varus
--The Varu is more conveniently located on the tech tree
--The Varu gets -10 vs. anticav units, the Legion +10
--The Varu costs an extra maintenance
--The Legion can perform a builder action
--The Legion upgrades smoothly to Musketmen, the Varu has to wait for Tanks
Taken altogether, I prefer the Legion, but the Varu is not THAT far off. A good UU.
But I think India's unique abilities are way below average. A decent amount of Faith and maybe an extra belief or two in some of your cities, if you're lucky, which may or may not be powerful. Tier D for me.
If you want a Civ that can really grow, I think Kongo is much better.
The Varu is pretty powerful, but also slow. You can stack the -5 combat penalty but with the 120H cost and 3 maintenance you probably don't want to spam these things. The proper comparison is probably with the Legion rather than the Horseman (remember, India can still build Horsemen as well as Varus):
--The Varu and Legion have 40 strength and 2 movement
--The Varu costs 120 hammers to Legion's 110, but the Varu has a 100% production policy card available, the Legion only 50%
--The Varu has -5 strength to adjacent units, which can stack for multiple Varus
--The Varu is more conveniently located on the tech tree
--The Varu gets -10 vs. anticav units, the Legion +10
--The Varu costs an extra maintenance
--The Legion can perform a builder action
--The Legion upgrades smoothly to Musketmen, the Varu has to wait for Tanks
Taken altogether, I prefer the Legion, but the Varu is not THAT far off. A good UU.
But I think India's unique abilities are way below average. A decent amount of Faith and maybe an extra belief or two in some of your cities, if you're lucky, which may or may not be powerful. Tier D for me.
If you want a Civ that can really grow, I think Kongo is much better.
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Furycrab
King
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I prefer the Varu mostly because it's cheaper to build and that -5 is kinda huge since it also makes your archers that much better. The double war weariness is also brutal. I put them as a C infringing on B considering how aggressive the meta for deity currently is... I just find it ironic that they once again managed to make India with bonuses you would think make you do something, but really... it makes you do the complete opposite. Warmonger Gandhi is pretty strong... Go beat up other AIs because you have one of the strongest early game units, take religions from them, and then when the war gets a little old, they are begging to end the wars first because they rack up so much weariness.
Ogaw
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I have played with both Varu and Legion. Legion is more cost effective (maintenance) and more versatile (anti-cavalary). At the same time Varu has no upgrade options while Legion has it. I think India is quite poor civilization with current patch.
Ornen
Warlord
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I'm actually playing my first Kongo game now. I think it's fair to say their bonuses are geared to lategame – I'm still focused on settlers, builders, and military units at t120. On a tighter map, they might be more useful to me, but on the current game, I've still got tons of excellent turf to settle, so it's hard to will myself into bonuses that aren't as great as having more cities.
I built a few commercial districts but somehow Rome still beat me to a choice Great Merchant. Next one in line is pretty 'meh' so I'll probably pass.
I think Kongo's biggest bonus is from relics/sculpture/artifacts, and that's definitely a mid-late game bonus. You're not getting early relics as Kongo. Great Artists are a midgame GP. Artifacts don't come until late.
As for neighborhoods, I just unlocked them as Kongo. I'm still amenity-limited, which is always the case when I go wide. I had planned to give tall a try this time around, but the turf just begged me to do otherwise.
I don't think they're a bad civ, but at least on the current playthrough, I'm getting roughly zero bonus from them. Too bad. I do think the housing/amenities issue is a real one, though – wide seems stronger than tall, and amenities become more limiting than housing in that case.
I'm only listing the stronger leader. Pericles is marginally weaker than Gorgo.
US is not in the lowest tier. They are not 'a bit' above lowest tier. The combat bonus is a huge one, especially in the all-important early game. Their other bonuses aren't terrible either. This has been discussed. You're welcome to read those posts.
Sure, but you'd have to allocate the same or more resources if that were a border with another civ.
King Jason
Fleece-bearer
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Which is why you're underrating it.
Bear in mind, I would currently rate it more powerful/snowbally to progress through the culture tree at a faster rate than everyone else - than it is to progress through the tech tree at a faster rate than everyone else. Governments and policy cards make your empire just that much efficient.
Forget relics - Kongo has the capacity to spam writers infinitely better than anyone else; 1 writer requires two cities to be utilized. Kongo can fit 2.5 writers in 1 city. That's 5 cities-worth of writer slots.
If you get lucky with a relic, great. But come Drama and Poetry, there is no civ in this game that will be able to match Kongo's culture output. Even greece who can get their theaters on quicker won't have anywhere to put their writers - a very common problem.
You can deprive every other civ from writers and force them to pay for theirs. The amount of times I've sold great works for enormous sums - thus taking up enemy writing slots and pushing me ahead even further. Use the gold to buy builders, entire buildings, whatever.
All the while, you're still beating your opponents to feudalism, the t2 governments, and of course to guilds, where your district comes online. which translates to the ability to settle anywhere irregardless of water access so long as you have a forest/jungle or two.
To say nothing of the fact that they get Swordsman that don't require iron, can travel across the map faster than regular swordsman, and are strong against ranged attacks. Their UU is quite good - and early.
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SabreNation81
Chieftain
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I'd like to revive the China discussion a bit. I definitely second them deserving to move up a tier. Their builder bonus is REALLY, REALLY strong in the early game. A very strong point that often gets overlooked (until you play them) is how amazing its synergy with the Pyramids is. You basically get to build the Pyramids (one of the better wonders in the whole game IMO) for the cost of one builder charge. It costs 6 charges (1 1/2 builders for China) to rush the Pyramids to 90% but as soon as you finish it you get a free 5-charge builder. So you just built a very strong wonder for, basically, 1 builder charge and your already strong builders get 5 charges all game. Take the +2 charge policy and you have 7-charge builders, that is a LOT of saved production over the course of a game and lets you improve your cities and bring them "online" VERY quickly. It gets even stronger if you nab a good Petra location. Drop a city, rush the Pyramids, then use your free builder to rush Petra. China can settle Petra cities in locations most civs can't because they won't grow fast enough to complete it before the AI does. I settled a Petra city that was 100% surrounded by desert hills with a bunch of mountains for a good Campus site and exactly TWO flatland tiles in its entire radius. That city was an absolute production *MONSTER* by the end game with all the Petra hills mined, Industrial district up, etc. This is just one example of how you can leverage the builder + early wonder boost super powerfully. I've also heard people talk about rushing the Great Library to get an automatic 60% boost (thanks to China's other trait) on every single early game tech which frees you up early game to do whatever you want instead of diverting resources to chase tech boosts. China's super builders and wonder boost can be leveraged in a lot of really strong ways.
I also feel like the Crouching Tiger is really underrated. China's traits make them heavily suited to a turtle up and Sim-City style of play. Crouching Tigers + Great Wall gives you a titanium shell on your turtle. Great Wall bonuses basically erase the melee disadvantage of ranged units and Crouching Tigers hit REALLY hard. So you slam your melee units into a Crouching Tiger on a wall, do minimal damage, and then when they fire back it HURTS. Next turn you either back your unit off (assuming it survived the return fire at all) or make a suicide charge. A small group of Crouching Tigers and Crossbowmen on a stretch of Great Wall tiles can hold the line pretty much indefinitely against a much larger army in the early game. The Crossbowmen soften up units as they move in and take out enemy ranged units, the Crouching Tigers demolish anything that gets close.
