Civ 6 diplomacy is the same as civ 5 vanilla

[pietro1990]

I have a feeling civ 6 will be a bad game just like civ 5 vanilla because of the diplomacy

diplomacy seems random and Ai has to many negative modifiers where they get angry from

random backstabs
I recently watched a lets play of of marborzir and what i noticed is this There is no diplomacy Ai randoms backstabs you for no reason just like in civ 5 vanilla there is no benefit for positive modifiers :

Look at 3:00
You will see germany declarin war wich is normal because he hates marborzir but you will notice greece joining the war although they have a decleration of friendship and a lot of modifiers.

I advise you to watch the first parts of marborzir lets play you will notice he did a lot of diplomacy to make germany and america friends he even ignored city state so greece won't get mad.

Notice marborzir rant here and who can blame him? This needs to be fixed. I thought diplomacy was going to matter in civ 6 ?

From all lets plays i have watched not only marborzir when i watched quilt18, filthy robot the AI will atack you regardless of modifiers it doesn't make any sence. They olso get angry at you for reasons you can't control hidden agenda's.

At the same lets play notice at 31:13 Ai gets angry randomlly. Because of their hidden agenda's. Seems to break diplomacy a lot.


I have a feeling diplomacy is going to be a big mess. Am i the only one who has this concern after watch those live streams? Share your thoughts.

 

[GeoModder]

Good ol' Pericles! He's still at it!

 

[Ryika]

I would have wished for more diplomatic stability as well.

 

[narmox]

I'm also concerned.

ie on Marb's Greece LP, where he gets England to declare a joint war against (I think it was Germany, in the early game), immediately after he gets backstabbed by England.

More importantly, in another playthrough, I think FilthyRobot's Germany going wide LP, the instant he founded a new religion, before he even had a chance to build a single religious unit or building - yes, immediately once he founded it and pressed "next turn" - Kongo went to him and told him in so uncertain words he was angry that Filthy wasn't spreading his religion to him. Quite impatient!

Hopefully those will get tweaked very quickly!

 

[pietro1990]

I'm also concerned.

ie on Marb's Greece LP, where he gets England to declare a joint war against (I think it was Germany, in the early game), immediately after he gets backstabbed by England.

More importantly, in another playthrough, I think FilthyRobot's Germany going wide LP, the instant he founded a new religion, before he even had a chance to build a single religious unit or building - yes, immediately once he founded it and pressed "next turn" - Kongo went to him and told him in so uncertain words he was angry that Filthy wasn't spreading his religion to him. Quite impatient!

Hopefully those will get tweaked very quickly!

Yes i watched marborzir's lets play of greece olso. This situation olso happened in civ 5 vanilla the Ai would ask you to decalre war on someone and then backstabs you. it was actually programmed to do in civ 5 vanilla.

Another thing i noticed at this greece lets play that the AI will forward settle you like in civ 5 vanilla. And get angry if you settle . Really?

 

[narmox]

Another thing i noticed at this greece lets play that the AI will forward settle you like in civ 5 vanilla. And get angry if you settle . Really?

I think that part is fine, I mean you also get angry when they forward-settle you, right? Creates tensions, which is the desired effect.

 

[pietro1990]

erm, in Civ5 vanilla diplomacy:

• Modifiers were not visible
• AI civs were focused only on winning
• No agendas
• Warmonger penalties dominated everything

The diplomacy might be flawed in Civ6 because of bad AI, but it's hardly the same situation

1 Modifiers were not visible
A lot of modifiers aren't visible in civ 6 notice the -6 for unknow reasons. You have to use espionage to find out what it is...

2 AI civs were focused only on winning
In civ 5 vanilla wanted to win the game so bad it destroyed diplomacy. In civ 6 they dont want to win the game but just act randomly thats probably worse.

3 No agendas
Not completly true certain Ai get angry for you based on their personalities askia and egypt building wonders, england greece for competing city states. There was a certain personallity in civ 5 that effects behavior.

4 Warmonger penalties dominated everything
It does in civ 6 even more then civ 5. In brave new world they fixed warmonger penalty by only implying to capturing cities now you olso get a penalty for declaring war. In some lets plays of civ 6 on youtube you see the Ai denouncing you for declaring war ONE TIME. That only happend in civ 5 vanilla where you would get a penalty for declaring war.

you need certain civics to get a warmonger penalty reduction.. Its worse then civ I am dissapointed with that a lot. In brave new world they at least changed the game mechanics so a decleration of war doesn't cause the world to hate you only taking cities will in civ 6 IT DOESNT

Notice in the lets play at 24:15 he says that its best to keep at war with Ai if they declare war because if you declare war you get a huge penalty for it. same bad programming like civ 5. Remember the old vanilla civ 5 where you are just poking the Ai to declare war on you so you could take their stuff. And prevent you from decarling war its back in civ 6 and its a bad thing in brave new world they actually removed decleration of war penalty only taking cities does it.

 

[Woka]

In episode 1 at 28:00, marbozir triggers greece's hidden agenda for having low gold. That might be why pericles gets angry.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Surely there are bugs, problems and concerns about the diplomacy. But saying it's the same as Civ5 vanilla? I don't get it. They are as opposite as Civ diplomacy could be.

 

[pietro1990]

In episode 1 at 28:00, marbozir triggers greece's hidden agenda for having low gold. That might be why pericles gets angry.

Yeah thats the negative modifier for unknow reason's... But he olso said the negative modifiers where much lesser then the positive. So yeah he got big modifier for it but olso had much positive modifiers so that isn't the case.

Surely there are bugs, problems and concerns about the diplomacy. But saying it's the same as Civ5 vanilla? I don't get it. They are as opposite as Civ diplomacy could be.

not the same game mechanics. Its the same in the sence its "broken"and totally random.

 

[pietro1990]

I think that part is fine, I mean you also get angry when they forward-settle you, right? Creates tensions, which is the desired effect.

Well the problem of me isn't that they get angry at it. The problem is that evey single AI settles cities NEXT TO YOU. on purpose

 

[narmox]

Well the problem of me isn't that they get angry at it. The problem is that evey single AI settles cities NEXT TO YOU. on purpose

Yes, so you get to be angry too Settle quicker, declare war, or accept it.. Just like the AI has to do if you do it.

 

[stealth_nsk]

AI settle on all free spots, it doesn't settle towards player on purpose.

 

[pietro1990]

Yes, so you get to be angry too Settle quicker, declare war, or accept it.. Just like the AI has to do if you do it.

In brave new world a friendly Ai will NOT SETTLE NEXT TO YOU i've seen it happen a lot.

 

[pietro1990]

AI settle on all free spots, it doesn't settle towards player on purpose.

Fine but you have to admit that the random declerations of war and the hidden angenda's break diplomacy a lot in civ 6 early built

 

[elitetroops]

I remember the devs saying in some video that the early game is supposed to be filled with wars, then the world settles down and becomes more peaceful in the later eras. From what I've seen so far in the let's plays, this appears to be the case. Has anyone been declared upon in the Industrial era or later?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Fine but you have to admit that the random declerations and the hidden angenda's break diplomacy a lot

No. There's a range between totally mechanical AI (always act according to clear and predictable set of modifiers) and unpredictable AI. The first is extremely boring, the second means no diplomacy. Optimal choice is somewhere towards the first, with a bit of randomness and hidden things - just like Civ6 does this.

 

[Balkans]

The problem is that they didn't simplify AI but they tried again and failed miserably to make AI human like. Even Jon Shafer wrote about that problem. If you try to make AI to think like human, you get totally insane AI. Unpredictable AI. In a game that's not so fun. You build a relationship thousand years and you get back stab. We like to do it. But if AI does it all systems seems broken.
I don't care about that. What i want to know - how is it that they publish a version of a game where AI gives a city?!, luxury, gold, and gold per turn for a LUXURY??? That's what i want to know about the new and powerful AI.

 

[rreebb]

It looks like in the particular version sent to the Youtubers, there is a bug that would make the valuation of a certain resource unbounded (no value for relic/unreasonable value for a luxury). Probably a matter of clamping a value to a certain min/max valuation, if so it's easy to fix. On the other hand, if the AI is built using neural networks and deep learning...

 

[narmox]

In brave new world a friendly Ai will NOT SETTLE NEXT TO YOU i've seen it happen a lot.

That's a fair point though, indeed.