Civ 6 diplomacy is the same as civ 5 vanilla

[narmox]

It looks like in the particular version sent to the Youtubers, there is a bug that would make the valuation of a certain resource unbounded (no value for relic/unreasonable value for a luxury). Probably a matter of clamping a value to a certain min/max valuation, if so it's easy to fix. On the other hand, if the AI is built using neural networks and deep learning...

Yeah, this is also the same version where, when Marbozir re-captured or liberated the Geneva city-state, the city name was changed to $CityName$ and he couldn't do anything with it. Definitely an unpolished build.

 

[Balkans]

It looks like in the particular version sent to the Youtubers, there is a bug that would make the valuation of a certain resource unbounded (no value for relic/unreasonable value for a luxury). Probably a matter of clamping a value to a certain min/max valuation, if so it's easy to fix. On the other hand, if the AI is built using neural networks and deep learning...

I don't think it's a bug. I fear it's a feature of the new game. Because this problem was noticed at least a month before the youtube version. It wasn't fixed because obviously there are modifiers that allow that kind of insane flexibility in trading to make it more alive. And more broken. If you can say - easily fixable - you can say that for bunch of features of the new game - meaning you will get a decent game couple of years down the line...again.

 

[rreebb]

Definitely an unpolished build.

I have no idea concerning the in-house testing for large game companies - what % increase do you think the Youtubers made in the amount of game testing (in hours, not persons)? Seeing how they're seemingly putting in days on end (and who would blame them...)
On the other hand, the build seemed to be quite stable. Yes, people will point to Marb's crashes, but a single bug triggered by specifics in his save can easily be the cause of every one of them. (Hope they all have an easy way of producing and submitting crash logs.)

 

[Lights]

1 Modifiers were not visible
A lot of modifiers aren't visible in civ 6 notice the -6 for unknow reasons. You have to use espionage to find out what it is...

2 AI civs were focused only on winning
In civ 5 vanilla wanted to win the game so bad it destroyed diplomacy. In civ 6 they dont want to win the game but just act randomly thats probably worse.

3 No agendas
Not completly true certain Ai get angry for you based on their personalities askia and egypt building wonders, england greece for competing city states. There was a certain personallity in civ 5 that effects behavior.

4 Warmonger penalties dominated everything
It does in civ 6 even more then civ 5. In brave new world they fixed warmonger penalty by only implying to capturing cities now you olso get a penalty for declaring war. In some lets plays of civ 6 on youtube you see the Ai denouncing you for declaring war ONE TIME. That only happend in civ 5 vanilla where you would get a penalty for declaring war.

you need certain civics to get a warmonger penalty reduction.. Its worse then civ I am dissapointed with that a lot. In brave new world they at least changed the game mechanics so a decleration of war doesn't cause the world to hate you only taking cities will in civ 6 IT DOESNT

Notice in the lets play at 24:15 he says that its best to keep at war with Ai if they declare war because if you declare war you get a huge penalty for it. same bad programming like civ 5. Remember the old vanilla civ 5 where you are just poking the Ai to declare war on you so you could take their stuff. And prevent you from decarling war its back in civ 6 and its a bad thing in brave new world they actually removed decleration of war penalty only taking cities does it.

There's a difference between having hidden personalities and not having any way to uncover them. And having a spy system build in game to help you and not using it. If you are that bothered, play France.

 

[pietro1990]

That's a fair point though, indeed.

It seems in civ 6 every single Ai does it even though who are friendly.

The problem is that they didn't simplify AI but they tried again and failed miserably to make AI human like. Even Jon Shafer wrote about that problem. If you try to make AI to think like human, you get totally insane AI. Unpredictable AI. In a game that's not so fun. You build a relationship thousand years and you get back stab. We like to do it. But if AI does it all systems seems broken.
I don't care about that. What i want to know - how is it that they publish a version of a game where AI gives a city?!, luxury, gold, and gold per turn for a LUXURY??? That's what i want to know about the new and powerful AI.

+1 Great post. Thats exactly my point civ 4 had the best diplomacy yes it was predictable but it worked and thats the most important part.

Now you have AI who acts agressive and random. I thinx the biggest problem in civ 6 are the hidden agenda's. the normal agenda's would just be fine and there should be a option in the game mechanic randomised personalities that gives every leader a different one each game..

Ai gets angry for no reason things that you do automaticlly heaving great person's and so on.

 

[Gali]

Is this some kind of joke. Vanilla civ 5 diplomacy was pacts of cooperation and secrecy. they didn't even have civilopedia entries. The only information you got was the AI popping up and saying random stuff. The system was so utterly broken it was fundamentally rebuilt AFTER RELEASE.

Look at Marbozirs Kongo game. He actually sends out delegations and doesn't accidentally declare a surprise war early. He has full info on Greek and American attitudes except for hidden agendas and exploits their agendas to gain 2 dofs. Greece stays friendly even after he forwards settles. In civ 6 when the AI pops up to say something it is about their agenda and can gaina vital clure about their hidden agenda. Marbozir already knows Pericles hidden agenda by paying attention and watching modifiers. Civ 6 diplomacy needs some bug fixes and modifier weights but the system is there. Civ 5 diplomacy was so fundamentally broken the system wasn't worth saving. There is no comparison.

 

[narmox]

You will see germany declarin war wich is normal because he hates marborzir but you will notice greece joining the war although they have a decleration of friendship and a lot of modifiers.

I advise you to watch the first parts of marborzir lets play you will notice he did a lot of diplomacy to make germany and america friends he even ignored city state so greece won't get mad.

Notice marborzir rant here and who can blame him? This needs to be fixed. I thought diplomacy was going to matter in civ 6 ?

I wonder if this is an unintended side-effects of the AI giving too much value to some things in trade, and too little to other things, like how you can get Great works for 1 gold, or a city for 1 gold? Perhaps Germany bribed Greece WAY too easily in that case?

 

[rreebb]

I don't think it's a bug. I fear it's a feature of the new game. Because this problem was noticed at least a month before the youtube version. It wasn't fixed because obviously there are modifiers that allow that kind of insane flexibility in trading to make it more alive. And more broken.

Well, we'll see. I understand that a lot of veterans were quite disappointed by the initial release of Civ5 - I wasn't playing Civ games at that point so it would be unfair to deny your experience and the resulting pessimism - but for myself I'll remain optimistic for release/early patch. As someone who develops software I'm quite used to stupid bugs creeping in that are uncovered only by final users - although in that case everything is scaled down a few orders of magnitude...

 

[Balkans]

In Marbozir game he has +43 and -6 modifier with Greece and Mighty Pericles dislikes him. Hmm, i guess i didn't pay attention in math classes. I don't get it. Maybe we should build +6 and -43 in order for Pericles to actually like us? Haha, just kidding, but this is problem that won't be fixed for release, and it won't be fun to play diplomacy, i promise you. It's still OK game, but diplomacy is something we had wet dreams for, and we won't get it, not by a long shot.

 

[rreebb]

I wonder if this is an unintended side-effects of the AI giving too much value to some things in trade, and too little to other things, like how you can get Great works for 1 gold, or a city for 1 gold?

That is actually a good point, and very convincing, since declaring joint war is a trade item too. (Assuming AI-AI trade works similar to human-AI trade.)

 

[pietro1990]

I wonder if this is an unintended side-effects of the AI giving too much value to some things in trade, and too little to other things, like how you can get Great works for 1 gold, or a city for 1 gold? Perhaps Germany bribed Greece WAY too easily in that case?

I thinx you just find the problem. Probably olso the reason why AI acts crazy values hidden agenda's a lot more then it should. or values certain things a lot that can cause damage on relationship.

 

[rreebb]

In Marbozir game he has +43 and -6 modifier with Greece and Mighty Pericles dislikes him. Hmm, i guess i didn't pay attention in math classes. I don't get. Maybe we should build +6 and -43 in order for Pericles to actually like us?

Maybe your math is fine, but your attention span is lacking. He peaced out on turn 125, and by turn 130 Pericles is back to "green smiley face" status. I assume that the actual attitude is not simply the sum of all modifiers, but a separate value and cannot jump, but only gradually arrive at the value given by the modifiers. After a few turns of war I'm not surprised by him not liking Marbs (it's mutual).

It's much more irritating to see AIs peacing out with you and instantly being "friendly" in Civ 5.

 

[elitetroops]

I wonder if this is an unintended side-effects of the AI giving too much value to some things in trade, and too little to other things, like how you can get Great works for 1 gold, or a city for 1 gold? Perhaps Germany bribed Greece WAY too easily in that case?

In Marbozir's Greece game he tries to bribe Victoria to a joint war, but she refuses. Then he asks her for joint war and a bunch of gold and she agrees...

I wonder if they have slipped in some very basic bug that sometimes makes the AI evaluate deals the wrong way around. That would explain all things like 1 gold for relic, them paying a resource+all the gold they have for another resource, and Vicky thinking it's a better deal to go to war if she also pays a bunch of gold.

 

[rreebb]

I wonder if they have slipped in some very basic bug that sometimes makes the AI evaluate deals the wrong way around.

unsigned deal_value = their_stuff - my_stuff;

As easy as that!

 

[Balkans]

Maybe your math is fine, but your attention span is lacking. He peaced out on turn 125, and by turn 130 Pericles is back to "green smiley face" status. I assume that the actual attitude is not simply the sum of all modifiers, but a separate value and cannot jump, but only gradually arrive at the value given by the modifiers. After a few turns of war I'm not surprised by him not liking Marbs (it's mutual).

You are right. But why in the world would you make the bar lag a few turns a true relation while in the same time all the math modifiers are burning your eyes? But you convinced me, it's me, it's not Firaxis.

 

[pietro1990]

In Marbozir game he has +43 and -6 modifier with Greece and Mighty Pericles dislikes him. Hmm, i guess i didn't pay attention in math classes. I don't get it. Maybe we should build +6 and -43 in order for Pericles to actually like us? Haha, just kidding, but this is problem that won't be fixed for release, and it won't be fun to play diplomacy, i promise you. It's still OK game, but diplomacy is something we had wet dreams for, and we won't get it, not by a long shot.

Ok lets clear something out brave new world (civ 5) had great diplomacy. There where more positive modifiers sharing intrigue of spying same ideology world congress..

AI acts rationally and usally only dows if you are close . accept certain AI like warmongers montezuma and zulus.
AI usally stays peaceful until you do something wrong ingore their request break promise settle near them annnoy them in the world congress. Have different ideology. Make friends with their enemies.
Its pretty easy to get friends on civ 5 brave new world and keep long positive alliances.

backstabs are actually realistic in civ 5 yes they backstab me but there is usally a reason for it my warmongering, i made to many friends with people they hate. or its just their personality like rome.

They improved civ 5 from a Moderator Action: <snip> game vanilla to a amazing game brave new world.

This is why i am so ANGRY . They took a step backwards in civ 6 WHY?. I was hoping they would built on what they learned in brave new world but they don't. They took a huge step backwards

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[rreebb]

But why in the world would you make the bar lag a few turns a true relation while in the same time all the math modifiers are burning your eyes?

I agree, an additional modifier that shows the "lag" numerically would be welcome. Something like "resentment due to war" which diminishes each turn.

 

[King Jason]

I don't think it's a bug. I fear it's a feature of the new game.

Doubt it.

As far as pericles - is anyone talking about the fact that he could have been bribed to join in the war? For anyone in the camp that the weights behind trade deals are still way off, then that means Germany could have bribed the very Friendly Pericles into war with far less than what it should actually take for someone with such positive modifiers to switch sides. Making something that will likely be impossible, possible. Such as trading away most of your stuff for one luxury. Which is likely not a "feature" of the game.

 

[Stilgar08]

not the same game mechanics. Its the same in the sence its "broken"and totally random.

Harsh words from someone who never played the game (presumably) and only watched prerelease LP footage, where evidently even bugs are very vital which certainly will become obsolete before release (trading - bug for instance).

Compared to ciV-vanilla it is a sophisticated diplomatic exchange! (even now) please remember the utterly useless diplo in vanilla ciV - a game that hit the shelves basically broken. Not really a fitting comparison to what I see in CiVI already in this unfinshed state!

And since so many mechanics changed it's just not fair to compare CiVI with BNW. It's not a step back at all, it's a much better base to build upon...
Edit: change from BNW to CiVI paragraph added

 

[Al Bundy]

The problem is that they didn't simplify AI but they tried again and failed miserably to make AI human like. Even Jon Shafer wrote about that problem. If you try to make AI to think like human, you get totally insane AI. Unpredictable AI. In a game that's not so fun. You build a relationship thousand years and you get back stab. We like to do it. But if AI does it all systems seems broken.
I don't care about that. What i want to know - how is it that they publish a version of a game where AI gives a city?!, luxury, gold, and gold per turn for a LUXURY??? That's what i want to know about the new and powerful AI.

Clearly, they have to fix it. It is terrible!