Civ: favorites and balance discussion

[Jojo_Fr]

- Hum ok. I did not saw or understood what you said about FoL and Ancient Forest faith.

- It seems whatever I say, whatever games feedback I could report, you will still thing there is no balance change needed with these civs.

Your arguments about the compensation of the massive industry/pop difference of Ljosalfar and Sheaims demons spawn is unfalsifiable as you don't play multiplayer games. You will still think what you thing I guess, unless you start playing games as Sheaims, and being crushed repetitively by a good Lojalfar player. If you want to play games with me or Tasunke, I ll be glad to play with you.

You are the master architect of this mod, so feel free to think this situation is a kinf of "asymetrical balanced situation".

 

[esvath]

It seems whatever I say, whatever games feedback I could report, you will still thing there is no balance change needed with these civs.

No. What I am saying is how I perceive the flavour of Sheaim. They are demonologists, they have free units from Planar Gates. They seek to destroy the world. Of course, they will play differently than tree-hugging Ljosalfar.

If you have suggestion for the Sheaim in line with those flavour, go ahead. Surely you notice that I adopt suggestions in this forum easily?

Your arguments about the compensation of the massive industry/pop difference of Ljosalfar and Sheaims demons spawn is unfalsifiable as you don't play multiplayer games. You will still think what you thing I guess, unless you start playing games as Sheaims, and being crushed repetitively by a good Lojalfar player. If you want to play games with me or Tasunke, I ll be glad to play with you.

I play single player and honestly do not care for "another human player". However, I am willing to adopt suggestion which will balance multi player more if the suggestions are also sound in what I value the most: uniqueness of each civ. Again, if you have suggestions on each and every civ to make it more balanced in multi-player, go ahead.

However, do not force your notion of balance to me, or any other single players here. The best you and me and all of us can do is describing our opinion on certain aspect of the game, then address and engage with others' opinions on that aspect. That is the best way to achieve balance, both in multi-player and in single-player games.

 

[Jojo_Fr]

No. What I am saying is how I perceive the flavour of Sheaim. They are demonologists, they have free units from Planar Gates. They seek to destroy the world. Of course, they will play differently than tree-hugging Ljosalfar.

If you have suggestion for the Sheaim in line with those flavour, go ahead. Surely you notice that I adopt suggestions in this forum easily?


I play single player and honestly do not care for "another human player". However, I am willing to adopt suggestion which will balance multi player more if the suggestions are also sound in what I value the most: uniqueness of each civ. Again, if you have suggestions on each and every civ to make it more balanced in multi-player, go ahead.

However, do not force your notion of balance to me, or any other single players here. The best you and me and all of us can do is describing our opinion on certain aspect of the game, then address and engage with others' opinions on that aspect. That is the best way to achieve balance, both in multi-player and in single-player games.

- I have suggestions on the Sheaims, adapted to their flavour. Even if I am a critic person, I need to say that I entirely stick to your vision of "balancing only if following or augmenting the specific lore and gameplay of the race". It's an excellent thing. Only MoM and Xtended further, really work and developp this idea (maybe Fall Further and Reborn, but far from this point).

- I agree with you, I understand that you feel I force to adopt my vision sometimes. I don't want it. I respect your work and your vision, I am a bit harsh sometimes, but you need to know my respect and feelings (beyond my poor english...).



About Sheaïms, I would like the following effects for balance reason and lore/gameplay features reasons, but I don't think it's possible techniquely :

- The armageddon counter plague effect has no effect on Sheaïms, as they deal with the demons, they are not stricked by this material curse coming from the increasing intrication with the hell plan (it's how I see the Plague). In term of gameplay, it will help them keeping a higher population, stimulate them to increase the armageddon counter, without feeling his effect.

- The apocalypses riders don't attack sheaims, as they are their main and probably only allies in the friends in this idea. I think it's pretty logical, I know riders are here to bring death and destruction, but if they are a functionnal brain, they should not attack the principal responsive of the coming apocalypse, no ?

Techniquelly, would it be possible to do that ? : When Sheaïms gain Infernal Pact, they gain the Peace with the barbarians (so it include the dears apocalypse riders). Ok, it may help sheaims against barbarians, but at this moment of the game, it should be very important.

- If non of these bonus are possible, others things are possible, if we turn around the idea of a more important synergy between the armageddon counter and the sheaims. For exemple, simple things (it's not cumulative. It's the first idea, or the second) :

* Armageddon counter add a mana income. Because Sheaims use the hellish plan to pump magic power. +1 for each AC point. So +100 at maximum (a small but always interesting bonus).
* Armageddon counter increase the faith generated by the AC (so not strictely limitated to the Sheaims civ). +1 % for each AC point, so +100 % maximum (it seems very logical to have more faith into the destruction of the world if the AC raize).



About Ljosalfar, they are and can become very powerfull, but that's can be ok (they are still too powerfull economiquely compared to some "vanilla" civ as bannors). The worst problem to me, it's the Faithfull trait itself what I don't like. More precisely, I don't like the idea to use the Great Prophet to have instantely 1500 faith. If it would be suppressed, any players won't be able to instant use it and reach advanced religious tech as infernal pact civic or fist or, in our case, the Fist of Leave civic.

 

[esvath]

- I agree with you, I understand that you feel I force to adopt my vision sometimes. I don't want it. I respect your work and your vision, I am a bit harsh sometimes, but you need to know my respect and feelings (beyond my poor english...).

Thanks. I really appreciate suggestions and feedback you and other players give me because that truly inspire me to do better things with this modmodmod. So, please keep them coming.

Techniquelly, would it be possible to do that ? : When Sheaïms gain Infernal Pact, they gain the Peace with the barbarians (so it include the dears apocalypse riders). Ok, it may help sheaims against barbarians, but at this moment of the game, it should be very important.

This is possible and already in game to some extent. There is this "Devil" civilization which play as independent demonic barbarian units and the Sheaim is already at peace with them on Infernal Pact. I can put the four horsemen as part of their civilization instead of pure barbarian.

Code-wise, the easiest thing is to make the four horsemen of Apocalypse as Devils, and in peace with Sheaim and Infernals.
Next, give Sheaim some buildings/rituals which gives benefits to offset the hell terrains. Maybe +healthiness or something.

 

[Icezera]

If Sheaim need to benefit even more from hell terrain, you could add unique buildings that would grant bonuses to hammers on hell terrain like heron throne except for hell. I don't think making Sheaim cities grow in hell terrain makes much flavor sense since the civ is about bringing about the end of the world. I don't think people want to grow in population when they want armageddon.

However, I would argue that sheaim already benefits so much from hell terrain because of their planar gates where they get free units while the rest of the civs in the world start to shrink from the spread of hell terrain and can no longer work tiles to provide hammers to make units. As the armageddon counter goes up, gate units spawn more frequently and hell terrain spreads faster and further, speeding up into a real snowball as other civs can not produce as many units while sheaim unit 'production' ramps up. Even an ai Sheaim will start to steamroll the map once armageddon counter starts to go up. Giving them even more benefits will just warp the game where the main goal of any game with sheaim in it becomes Kill the Sheaim before they ramp up or the game is over.

 

[Calavente]

on of the not so good aspect of sheaim is that the summoned units arrives with 0 xp.. while the other units ennemy civs build can start (by mid game) with 50xp or more... which can really offset the "greater amount of produced units"

 

[Icezera]

I'm not sure if that would be possible to fix. Units that are spawned don't get any exp bonuses and I've yet to see a mod actually change that. It is indeed a real downside

 

[Jojo_Fr]

That's true. And the worst problem it's as it's not possible to equip rookies units (you need to have the level 3 at minimum to buy equipement).

I don't know what to do.

Giving XP according to the armageddon counter is simplist.

Maybe giving a "feed" spell to the demons units (they can eat population of a city and gain XP up to a maximum of 30 XP ?).

Or giving simply 30 XP when infernal pact has been researched. Having some XP would not be logical as it's not true military center city. But not been able to buy equipement, is a true problem.

 

[esvath]

on of the not so good aspect of sheaim is that the summoned units arrives with 0 xp.. while the other units ennemy civs build can start (by mid game) with 50xp or more... which can really offset the "greater amount of produced units"

Which summoned units are these?

- if demons from Planar Gates, their starting xp = AC. Os Gabella's Gatemaster trait doubles this.
- if summoned units through magic, there are techs which increase summoned units' xp:
--- Soul Siphon (Death magic GE) increases summon's xp by 30.
--- Astral Mastery (Magi Circle guild, ultimate tech) increases summon's xp by 50.

I can give Sheaim starting tech which increases their summoned units' xp but not sure whether that will make Sheaim OP or not.

 

[Linvega]

I don't know if this is the right thread, but could anyone tell me what's the mid/lategame "goal-state" is of the mazatl? I don't mean their epic destiny or some other win state, but I'm talking about the economic situation. For example, with Marakim, I spam trading centers and get huge amounts of free specialists, while the trading centers are pretty sweet themselves. With Aos Si, you just spam cottages inside of forests, which is quite strong to begin with and becomes extremely strong with eternal forests.

With Mazatl, the strongest thing you can have is a town with lost lands inside a deep jungle. The problem is that you spread swamp terrain so fast there that you don't even have the time to build a cottage! And everything else is mediocre. Swampdwellings are not much better than regular farms on plains, and much worse than civic-"pimped" farms.

 

[Icezera]

The Mazatl always needed work. Even in MoM they weren't a great civ to begin with. You can get rid of swamps with your lizardman shapers and build improvements there but the civ itself is in need of rebalancing.

 

[krakonosh]

Hi, im not sure where to post this, but In my last game, turn 211, some skeleton barbarian units are much stronger than others. Is this intended? For example, near one of my cities is barrow with 8 skeleton units. Theis strength score is 56, 56, 56, 43, 43, 43, 43, 17. Few tiles away is another barrow with 3 skeletons str 11. 56 str is big problem for my troops with str around 12.

Edit: Turn 237. Skeletons with 56 str increased to 67. Magic abuse needed...

 

[esvath]

Did you sell weapons or slave to them? That might increase their strength.

 

[Ombatur]

Hi, im not sure where to post this, but In my last game, turn 211, some skeleton barbarian units are much stronger than others. Is this intended? For example, near one of my cities is barrow with 8 skeleton units. Theis strength score is 56, 56, 56, 43, 43, 43, 43, 17. Few tiles away is another barrow with 3 skeletons str 11. 56 str is big problem for my troops with str around 12.

The same thing also happens in my games. There were 2 goblin camps 4 tiles away from each other, one with strength 14 units, the other with strength 30. I always choose "Threaten" as an option.
Is it possible that the AI-civs sell slaves or weapons to them or are only human players threatened by barbarians?

 

[krakonosh]

Did you sell weapons or slave to them? That might increase their strength.

Selling weapons and slaves? That is something new for me If i did, i dont know about it. I have threatened them several times, when that menu appeared.

 

[esvath]

It is possible for AI to sell them weapons, making them grow stronger but ignoring AI's cities. Code wise, the option is there but I am not sure whether the AI Is smart enough to do so.

Threaten should result in the barbarian lair producing extra units and set mission to pillage your land.

Taunt should result in they get upset and launch invasion to your nearest city.

 

[Calavente]

I noticed that threaten and taunt creates units with increasing str.
so the "normally spawned units" stay at 7/9/11 depending on global tech/unit
while the additional units, added to the stack each time you taunt/threaten, get more str... and that "more str" increase each time you taunt/threaten;

so for example (bogus values) the 3 units of the first threaten are at 14str instead of 11, the next 5 units of your next event: taunt, are born with 16 str, the next 5 units are born with 21 str...Etc

and sometimes they don't charge directly to your civ.

I'm not sure it the increase in str of those "taunted units" is calculated world-wide, or lair-wide only, and I'm not sur if it depends on the str of units already present (you can get str 54 units only if you have str 50 units, or if it is zeroed once you clear the units in the stack ....

 

[esvath]

Interesting. In my playthroughs, I either destroyed lairs asap so I never noticed that taunting and threatening increase barbarian's str. How many taunts or threaten increase the barbarian str?

 

[Calavente]

I'll say that each taunt/threaten increase the strength.... ? but I haven't tested it recently
I used 2-3 lairs as xp farms... so I always left skellies in there.. .and when I had my higherlevel units nearby, I choose the "taunt/threaten" in order to get more units to farm xp from... and I noticed that in the "stack" defending the barrow, there were always 3 low str skellies, and 3 to 10 high str skellies... and the higher str increased with the time (ie: I clear the lair, then let it refill with low str units, then there is a later "taunt/threaten"... and then, the newly spawned units are stronger than the one spawned for the earlier taunt/threaten / I can't be sure if it is each time, or only one time out of two or whatever.).

so i don't really know the mechanic behind : is it every taunt/threaten cumulatively increase the str ? or is it based on turns ? or is there a variable somewhere where taunt is supposed to spawn +2str units, and threaten spawn +3 str units... (values are bogus) but the variable is stored and re-applied onto itself (so it increase the more you taunt/threaten) instead of being re-zeroed each time ??

I can test next game if you want (but it might take a week or more)

---------------- I'm not good at programming but I'll propose a reason -------------
assume the program says "taunt is supposed to spawn +2str units, and threaten spawn +3 str units"
on "taunt" the programm says "spawn unit str +2"
acquire unit : event skellies
acquire event skellies str value : 7
set new event skellie str to 7+2= 9
spawn skellies of str 9

then for the "taunt" loop, it goes
"spawn unit str +2"
acquire unit : event skellies
acquire skellies str value : 9
set new skellie str to 9+2= 11
spawn skellies of str 11.

depending on what is the "even skellies str" variable is stored, you could get a cumulative of taunt and threaten and Threaten Orthus or not, and that cumulation could be world-wide or localised per lair.
---------------- end of bogus programming reasoning -------------

 

[Jojo_Fr]

I reproduce here, in the right topic, about the reworking of the existent civs, two suggestions I gave about the Jotnars :

Suggestions about Jotnar : Giving them "Firing" walls, or "Gigantic" walls

- Firing walls : Jotnar are a people of giants. When invaders dare to come at their immense cities, they can just take rocks and throw them. When a city as a Stone Rempart building, the ennemies who are at their gate receive -10 % health point per round (with a limit of -30 %) coming from the giants to arms who non stop fire them rocks.

- Gigantic walls idea : Jotnar with a Stone rempart are not a simple fortificied city, it's an immense fortress. High walls and cliffs as thick as mountains. Any invader need to breach hardly the fortification of a giant city with a stone wall, if they want to hope at least enter in the city. Info : If it's techniquely possible, give to the Jotnar wall the Moat faculty : it forbit any attack of the city, unless you downed the fortifications of the city to a certain percentage (zero for exemple). This moat feature exists in the Civ IV mod Rise of Mankind : http://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ4-rise-of-mankind.269/

The problem it's it would make Jotnar city untakable by A.I because A.I rarely use siege units or fireballs. As replacement, we may just double or triple the fortification level of any jotnar city with stone wall, to make it very hard to take the city without a heavy siege work ? What do you think of this idea ?




The problem it's it would make Jotnar city untakable by A.I because A.I rarely use siege units or fireballs. As replacement, we may just double or triple the fortification level of any jotnar city with stone wall, to make it very hard to take the city without a heavy siege work ? What do you think of this idea ?