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Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy)

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Kaitzilla, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    I think this hidden diplo modifier only affects peace vassalage.

    Nobody knows how vassals trade with each other as far as I know. :dunno:
    I would assume normal rules.

    Yes, a vassal will always be willing to trade anything with their master. :D

    This is even better than Friendly civs who will trade any tech except the ones that unlock space parts.
    Space part techs will make the AI say (we'd rather win the game, thank you very much).
    These techs are Superconductors, Genetics, Fiber Optics, Fusion, Satellites, Composites, and Ecology.

    Interestingly, the AI will also say (we'd rather win the game, thank you very much) if the human tries to broker peace between a much larger AI (2.5 times as many land tiles as the human) and a 2nd AI at war with each other.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...very-much-question-about-ai-reasoning.627629/
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  2. Anysense

    Anysense King

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  3. djdazi180

    djdazi180 Chieftain

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    Set up a game with WB. Louis is 3x my size and Gandhi 3x the size of Louis.

    Just as is:




    After gifting Louis a few MechInfs:


     
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  4. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Let me check.

    Oh!
    Thanks djdazi180 for testing this, I was clearly wrong. :love:

    The amount of land tiles needed for the player to broker a Cease Fire between 2 AI is way more complicated then I thought!

    Check out this test game.
    Spoiler :


    Test #1:
    Human 9 land tiles
    Sitting Bull 27 land tiles
    Huayna Capac 50 land tiles

    When brokering a ceasefire between the stronger HC and weaker Sitting Bull, HC will sign a ceasefire.

    Huayna Capac gets 51 land tiles and then he says "We'd rather win the game." :hmm:

    Next,
    Test #2:
    Human 20 land tiles
    Sitting Bull 27 land tiles
    Huayna Capac 51 land tiles

    When brokering a ceasefire between the stronger HC and weaker Sitting Bull, HC still says "We'd rather win the game."

    The human player gets 21 land tiles, and then Huayna Capac will sign a ceasefire with Sitting Bull. :hmm: :crazyeye:


    I can't make any sense out of these numbers. :dunno:
    The 2.5 times number of land tiles is not showing up in either of these tests.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  5. Whisker

    Whisker Chieftain

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    @Kaitzilla
    On test #2, 2.5*20=50 <51 & 2.5*21=52.5>51, so that agrees with brokerer needind atleast 1/2.5 of the bigger AIs land area. Test #1 is more confusing, maybe there's another rule about absolute power levels where brokerer's size is ignored if warring parties are close enough in power . Was there any difference between test 1 & 2 on soldier couts or land targets?
     
  6. Whisker

    Whisker Chieftain

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    I'm not familiar with the language used in the code, but I may have found the reason:
    int landRatio = ((getTotalLand(true) * 100) / std::max(20, GET_TEAM(eTeam).getTotalLand(true)));
    If I'm right, the bolded part of the code returns either 20 or number of land tiles, whichever is bigger.

    So in example#1 even when our land area is way smaller, value returned (20) is exactly 1/2.5 of Capac's land.
     
  7. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Thanks for figuring this out Whisker. :goodjob:

    Yes, for brokering Cease Fire between 2 AI, the player gets 20 land tiles minimum when calculating if the AI is too big to listen.
    If the AI has more than 2.5 times the land tiles of the player, the AI won't listen and will say "We'd Rather Win the Game".

    The stronger of the 2AI (Power/Soldiers) is the one who has to be bribed to end the war, and the resulting peace is a Cease Fire, not a 10 turn Peace Treaty.
    So war could break out again the following turn.
     
  8. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    Why would Peter open borders at furious? There were no wars and he had no land targets (other than myself).
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0348.JPG


    And now I can bribe him on Boudica and Darius! What is that about:confused:
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0364.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0366.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0365.JPG
     
  9. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    You have vassals. Peter's attitude towards you is the average of his attitude towards you and all of your vassals. So, if he's Furious with you, but Friendly with the Zulu and Byzantine, I believe that would average out to Pleased.
     
  10. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    I forgot about that! That would explain a lot. I found another picture. My vassals are the five AI's at the bottom. Of course, quite a few things changed (3 more vassals and Justinian adopted a religion). Actually Peter does not have to be pleased towards player for bribing purposes, cautious is enough.
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0417.JPG
     
  11. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    At first I thought you were at war with another AI and Peter was also at war with that AI.
    That way, even if you are the Worst Enemy of Peter, he will still Open Borders with you since you are both at war vs. the same AI.
    For Example:
    Spoiler :

    Squinting my eyes, you don't appear to be at war? :hmm:
    Right!, Anysense has a vassal or vassals that is adjusting Peter's diplo attitude towards the player. :goodjob:

    I've never seen anyone pin down exactly what is going on with diplomacy after gaining a vassal, so I will try it now.

    1st, the diplomacy thresholds are as follows:
    Furious: -10 diplo or lower
    Annoyed: -9 diplo to -3 diplo
    Cautious: -2 diplo to +2 diplo
    Pleased: +3 diplo to +9 diplo
    Friendly: +10 diplo or higher

    Mods were created to allow hidden diplomacy modifiers to be viewed in game.
    Apparently it is possible to view these in debugger mode, but I don't know how.

    Eventually, Buffy 3.19.005 came out and it included all the hidden diplomacy modifiers. :D
    This makes things much easier to test, although the AI to AI diplomacy numbers is occasionally off by 1.
    I've seen a lot of -3 Cautious and +2 Pleased on the AI-to-AI diplo table, but a :) is always genuinely indicating Pleased and :( always indicates Annoyed accurately.

    I see Anysense is running a mod because "we feel threatened by your large civilization" and "a first impression is a lasting one" are not normally viewable in unmodded civ.

    The total relations with Peter is -24 diplo (Furious)
    Peter signs Opens Borders at Cautious (-2 diplo or higher)
    Peter must have good diplo with Anysense's vassal or vassals to be willing to sign Open Borders.
    How much positive diplo is it exactly?


    Let's run a test.
    The player is -100 diplo (Furious) with an AI.
    The AI signs open borders at Cautious.
    The player has a vassal who is +10 diplo (Friendly) with the AI.

    Does Furious + Friendly = Cautious?
    Or is it merely (-100 + 2) / 2 = -49 diplo (Furious)?
    How does the Master + Vassal diplomacy combine when dealing with another AI?

    Using World Builder, make the player -10 (Furious) and the vassal +10 (Friendly) with the target civ.
    The civ with Cautious as the threshold will sign Open Borders.
    Change the player to -100 diplo (Furious) and keep the vassal +10 (Friendly)
    The civ will still sign Open Borders, so the combined diplo is presumably still Cautious or higher
    . :eek:

    Now keep the player at -100 (Furious) and change the vassal to +9 (Pleased)
    The civ who only signs open borders at Cautious or higher will no longer sign open borders, so the combined diplo of Master + Vassal must be below Cautious.

    Master + Vassal do not combine diplomacy numbers.
    They combine thresholds; Furious + Friendly = Cautious. :crazyeye:



    Now for more complex tests.
    We have an AI that signs Open Borders at Annoyed.

    What if the Master + Vassal is Furious + Annoyed? Can the master sign open borders?
    Nope.

    What if the Master + Vassal + Vassal is Furious + Annoyed + Cautious?
    Yes he signs Open Borders!
    Furious + Annoyed + Cautious = Annoyed.

    What if the Master + Vassal + Vassal is Furious + Furious + Cautious?
    Nope.

    What if the Master + Vassal + Vassal is Furious + Furious + Pleased?
    Yes he signs Open Borders!

    ==================
    Basically, the best I can figure out is you start with the diplomacy threshold indicated by Civ Illustrated.
    For the last example, an AI signs Open Borders at Cautious.

    Every threshold below Cautious subtract 1 and every threshold above Cautious add 1.
    If the total score of Master + Vassal + Vassal + Vassal etc. is equal to 0 or above, then the AI will sign open borders.
    If it is less than 0, the AI won't.

    AI signs Open Borders at Cautious.
    AI is Friendly with the player.
    AI is Annoyed with vassal #1 of the player.
    AI is Pleased with vassal #2 of the player.
    AI is Furious with vassal #3 of the player.
    AI is Annoyed with vassal #4 of the player.

    That would be +2-1+1-2-1 = -1, so the AI won't sign Open Borders with the player.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
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