Civ-specific ranks collection thread

[trexeric]

I also wouldn't include Rurik as he is a semi-fictional figure with no clear evidence of his existence.

I wouldn't include Rurik on the Russian list anyway because he fits somewhat better on the Viking list (which, by the very nature of a Viking leader list, already has other legendary or semi-legendary figures, or figures with generally unclear historicity, so he fits right in). As for the Kievan Rus list, the earliest I'd go would be Oleg. Russian list should probably stick to Muscovy and later.

 

[Leoreth]

That's true. I guess whatever you have will be preliminary, but you should be able to make a pretty good guess.

 

[stormogulen]

If we're willing to slightly relax the Viking-era focus of the Viking list then Vidkun Quisling seems like an obvious candidate for the bottom place.

Also, although the spreadsheet already has a proposed list for Sweden I'll share my hastily compiled proposal below for comparison.

1. Gustav II Adolf
2. Gustav Vasa
3. Karl XI
4. Axel Oxenstierna (Never really the #1 leader proper. But massively influential and considered a giant as a statesman.)
5. Karl XIV Johan
6. Birger Jarl
7. Per Albin Hansson
8. Kristina
9. Oscar II
10. Gustav III
11. Karl XII
12. Ulrika Eleonora
13. Karl XIII
14. Fredrik I (Considered a listless regent. Quote from wikipedia: "He did not even sign official documents; instead a stamp of his signature was used.")
15. Gustav IV Adolf
16. Erik XIV (Downright insane in the last years of his regency)

 

[Dracosolon]

My go at a Vikings list:

1) Ragnar loðbrók / Ragnar Lodbrok / Ragnar Shaggy-breeches (quintessential semi-legendary Viking king)
2) Knútr inn ríki / Cnut the Great (united the crowns of England, Denmark, and Norway into a "North Sea Empire")
3) Haraldr hárfagri / Harald Fairhair (united Norway, gained a reputation for harshness that drove people to settle Iceland)
4) Sveinn tjúguskegg / Sweyn/Sven Forkbeard (ambitious King of Denmark, ruled Norway by proxy and England briefly before his death)

5) Haraldr harðráði / Harald Hardrada / Harald Hard-ruler (last great Viking king; good King of Norway, less good at claiming other kingdoms)
6) Hrøríkr / Rurik (supposedly invited by Slavs to rule over them in Novgorod; founder of the long-lasting Rurikid Dynasty)
7) Haraldr blátönn / Harald Bluetooth (King of Denmark, converted the country to Christianity, ousted by his son)
8) Óláfr skautkonungr / Olof Skötkonung / Olaf the Swede (king of both Svealand and Götaland in Sweden; first Christian Swedish king)

9) Óláfr Tryggvason / Olaf Tryggvason (short-lived reign spent violently converting Norway to Christianity)
10) Auðr djúpúðga / Aud the Deep-Minded (Norse-Gaelic settler of Iceland; most respected chieftess in Iceland's history)
11) Þorgeirr Ljósvetningagoði / Thorgeir Ljosvetningagodi (Lawspeaker of Iceland who made the controversial decision to convert to Christianity)
12) Eiríkr rauði / Erik the Red (outlawed from Iceland for murder, founds/leads the Greenland colony; tricks people into joining him with the name)

13) Þorfinnr karlsefni / Thorfinn Karlsefni (tried to establish a colony in Vinland... this didn't work out very well)
14) Eiríkr blóðøx / Erik Bloodaxe (only briefly King of Norway, quickly fell out of favor for his despotic tendencies; later career in Britain also fraught)
15) Blót-Sveinn / Blot-Sweyn/Sven / Sven the Sacrificer (propped up as King of Sweden in an unsuccessful pagan revolt against Inge the Elder)
16) Fjölnir / Fjolne (though apparently a decent ruler, this legendary king is most famous for drowning in a vat of mead)

Obviously I stuck to the Viking Age, since the civilization is the Vikings and there's quite enough material in medieval Norse written sources to fully occupy the list. The UU, UB, UP, and UHV are all pretty specific to the Viking Age, so I figured that would be the preference.

My goal was to represent as many corners of the Viking world as possible - Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Greenland, Vinland, British Isles, Rus', etc. If/when Sweden is introduced in the future, that list should probably restrict itself to Swedish rulers after the Swedish start date.

Bolded are the versions of the names I would probably go with, but that's just personal preference.

I'd be interested to hear any critiques! A lot on here is definitely debatable, particularly given the (sometimes conflicting) sources that we have.

If "mostly remembered for dying in a funny way" makes you viable for bottom spot, then I vote Felix Faure for France.

 

[Steb]

If "mostly remembered for dying in a funny way" makes you viable for bottom spot, then I vote Felix Faure for France.

I went with Marie-Antoinette for the bottom spot

 

[trexeric]

If we're willing to slightly relax the Viking-era focus of the Viking list then Vidkun Quisling seems like an obvious candidate for the bottom place.

I don't really see a point in doing one modern leader and the rest Viking Age, especially since we have enough material for an all Viking Age list.

Also, although the spreadsheet already has a proposed list for Sweden I'll share my hastily compiled proposal below for comparison.

I whipped up the one on the spreadsheet. This list is good - I will note that Birger Jarl will only really work if the start date is 1250. If it is, 100% he should be on it. If the start date is 1523, then it'll have to start chronologically with Gustav Vasa.

I'll try consolidating our lists on the spreadsheet. My philosophy was to have a few more non-monarch politicians (at least 4/16) like prime ministers or Dag Hammarskjöld. Axel Oxenstierna is a great choice. As is Erik XIV for the bottom.

 

[Dracosolon]

I went with Marie-Antoinette for the bottom spot

I'm not a fan of that option, both because her story isn't really funny and because Louis XVI is already there. My picks (trying to space them out relatively evenly and to give representation to female and Republic leaders):

RANKING​	NAME​	START​	END​	NOTES​
1​	Louis XIV​	1643​	1715​	One of the most famous and powerful monarchs in European history.​
2​	Charlemagne​	768​	814​	Could be swapped with Louis XIV.​
3​	Napoléon I​	1804​	1815​	Gets third position due to his fall from grace.​
4​	Charles de Gaulle​	1959​	1969​	Not as iconic as the other leaderheads.​
​	​	​	​	​
5​	Henri IV​	1589​	1610​	One of the greatest kings France has ever had.​
6​	Philippe II Auguste​	1180​	1223​	Ditto; mostly remembered for the battle of Bouvines.​
7​	Blanche de Castille​	1223​	1235​	Regent of Saint Louis, probably the best candidate for a female leader.​
8​	Léon Blum​	1936​	1947​	Important socialist figure. Mostly here to represent Republic leaders amidst all these monarchs.​
​	​	​	​	​
9​	Hugues Capet​	987​	996​	Started a new dynasty, but poor reign.​
10​	François I​	1515​	1547​	Great Renaissance figure, but faced important military defeats.​
11​	Napoléon III​	1848​	1870​	Contrasted international legacy, reign ended in crushing defeat against Prussia.​
12​	Maximilien de Robespierre​	1793​	1794​	Leading figure of both the Revolution and the Terror.​
​	​	​	​	​
13​	Catherine de Médicis​	1547​	1553​	Reputation tainted by her role in the Wars of Religion.​
14​	Louis XVI​	1774​	1792​	Lost his throne and then his head.​
15​	Charles VI le Bien-Aimé​	1380​	1422​	Went mad, recognized an English king as his successor.​
16​	Félix Faure​	1895​	1899​	Gag option, mostly for how he supposedly died.​

 

[Steb]

I'm not a fan of that option, both because her story isn't really funny and because Louis XVI is already there. My picks (trying to space them out relatively evenly and to give representation to female and Republic leaders):

I think Marie-Antoinette's reputation as an out-of-touch figure who represents everything that was wrong with pre-revolutionary France is hard to beat, at least internationally! If you fumble your France game so much that you get compared to Marie-Antoinette, that seems much funnier to me than being compared to some president who died in an unusual way.

Otherwise your list looks good, I'll rework my list to take it into account

 

[Dracosolon]

I see what you mean, she's certainly more famous. Still, I think it should be either her or her husband, not both.

 

[Steb]

Yeah I guess it's worth pointing out that fame, or at least recognizability, is probably a good thing to take into account here. It's not going to be particularly fun to get compared to some leader from the 8th century you've never heard about. Doesn't mean fame is the only thing, but if we can avoid having people google the name of their score, that's usually good.

 

[trevor]

If "mostly remembered for dying in a funny way" makes you viable for bottom spot, then I vote Felix Faure for France.

Should Nelson Rockefeller be at the bottom of the American list for, ahem, similar reasons?

 

[Steb]

Should Nelson Rockefeller be at the bottom of the American list for, ahem, similar reasons?

Sorry, I agree with previous commenters that Dan Quayle must always remain the last American rank

Also, while dying in a funny way is certainly a way to be famous on the ridiculousness axis, I'm not sure it's really what we're looking for here? Unless the funny death was a significant factor in making the rule of that leader bad/short/ridiculous.

 

[trexeric]

Also, while dying in a funny way is certainly a way to be famous on the ridiculousness axis, I'm not sure it's really what we're looking for here? Unless the funny death was a significant factor in making the rule of that leader bad/short/ridiculous.

Only reason I chose Fjölnir for the last place in the Vikings list was because there really aren't any famously bad Viking Age rulers (that I can think of, anyway), so a ruler known only for having drowned in a vat of mead might be a decent joke option. If anyone has any better ideas I'll gladly replace him on the sheet. I've been thinking about it for a while now, as I'm not completely satisfied with him.

I definitely don't think it should be a trend, especially in civs with better options.

 

[Krieger-FS]

I don't think most of us are in a position to choose, so which one should it be?

Giving how the last one is the joke one, I'd prefer Quaresma, which is more known than Paraguaçu. The first is from a famous novel from Lima Barreto, one of the greatest Brazilian writers, while the latter is from a popular soap opera.

Ok, sorry. I forgot it was a list of only 16, my mistake. I will fix it now.


I really liked your list too. I missed putting Princess Isabel on the list, because her decision to sign the Golden Law that ended slavery cost her, what would be her third reign, as this is a measure of extreme relevance in the history of Brazil, and still that at great cost she made a decision that was good for her people (particularly black Brazilians), and that is the definition of statesmanship. I believe that due to the greatness/courage of making this decision, she deserves to be on the list and in a prominent position. So I think he could come in as 3rd and put Juscelino Kubtischek in 5th.

As for Vargas and Dom Pedro II there are no discussions, they are too important for the history of Brazil. 1st and 2nd places are agreed.


As for the end of the list, I agree. I think names like Tiririca and Collor can leave, to join Policarpo Quaresma and Delfim Moreira. So I think we can leave Odorico Paraguaçu as last, and then Policarpo as 15th

As for Dom Pedro I, I agree with you he had merit for independence, but after that it was just disasters.


So @Krieger-FS I think we could reach the final list that way, do you agree?

1. Getulio Vargas
2. Dom Pedro II
3. Princesa Isabel
4. José Bonifácio de Andrada

5. Juscelino Kubitschek
6- Joaquim Nabuco
7. Visconde do Rio Branco
8. Marquês do Paraná (preferably) or Campos Sales.

9. Deodoro da Fonseca
10. Floriano Peixoto
11. Dom Pedro I
12. Arthur Bernardes

13. Jânio Quadros
14. Delfim Moreira
15. Policarpo Quaresma
16. Odorico Paraguaçu

Honestly, I’m not a fan of Princess Isabel inclusion on the list, particularly in such high position. Sure, she was really important for the abolition of slavery and became indeed popular for lower classes during some years. Besides, she is probably the only woman that, considering the guidelines, could fit here for the Brazilian list. Nonetheless, she wasn’t really interested in politics and was much more focused on family life; even her father didn’t believe she would rule giving the sexist society then and basically everyone, including Pedro II, considered that the “real” monarch would be her unpopular husband, the French prince Count of Eu.

I’ll suggest some alternatives (with the proper justification) on the spreadsheet.

 

[Steb]

Nonetheless, she wasn’t really interested in politics and was much more focused on family life; even her father didn’t believe she would rule giving the sexist society then and basically everyone, including Pedro II, considered that the “real” monarch would be her unpopular husband, the French prince Count of Eu.

That doesn't seem that big of a deal? If she did rule (and she did, as a regent), and is remembered as a popular and good leader, then that's sufficient to go high on the list IMO.

In fact, the most relevant question is, if someone played a Brazilian game and then their score got compared to "Princess Isabel", would they think: "oh, nice, I played well" (in which case put her high on the list), "wow my score sucks" (in which case put her low on the list), or "what?" (in which case take her off the list).

 

[Leoreth]

Yes I agree, please don't overthink who "counts" as a ruler. If they are in the public consciousness, they are eligible. And their perception in the popular consciousness should determine their position.

 

[Cacaso]

Giving how the last one is the joke one, I'd prefer Quaresma, which is more known than Paraguaçu. The first is from a famous novel from Lima Barreto, one of the greatest Brazilian writers, while the latter is from a popular soap opera.



Honestly, I’m not a fan of Princess Isabel inclusion on the list, particularly in such high position. Sure, she was really important for the abolition of slavery and became indeed popular for lower classes during some years. Besides, she is probably the only woman that, considering the guidelines, could fit here for the Brazilian list. Nonetheless, she wasn’t really interested in politics and was much more focused on family life; even her father didn’t believe she would rule giving the sexist society then and basically everyone, including Pedro II, considered that the “real” monarch would be her unpopular husband, the French prince Count of Eu.

I’ll suggest some alternatives (with the proper justification) on the spreadsheet.

I agree with you, I think Policarpo Quaresma will be better because he is better known.

As for Princess Isabel, I think she should be present, given the relevance of slavery in the history of Brazil, having the presence of the stateswoman who finalized the process of abolition of slavery would be a great milestone to be achieved.

I changed the list in spreadsheet online and deleted Odorico paraguaçu, to put policarpo.

 

[Steb]

You people necro'ed a 10 year old thread and made me think for a moment I needed to do research on who the best Babylonian leaders in their history were.
Boooooooo!

Hey we still need a ranked list of Babylonian leaders in the spreadsheet if you feel up for it!

 

[Krieger-FS]

In fact, the most relevant question is, if someone played a Brazilian game and then their score got compared to "Princess Isabel", would they think: "oh, nice, I played well" (in which case put her high on the list), "wow my score sucks" (in which case put her low on the list), or "what?" (in which case take her off the list).

And their perception in the popular consciousness should determine their position.

The thing about her popular perception is something that I’m considering. As I said it, she was popular among lower classes in the immediate aftermath of the abolition of slavery, but her popularity dwindle in the next years and decades…. Today she is seen with a minor role, basically just signing the bill, since she wasn’t really interested or engaged in politics. On this issue, for example, Joaquim Nabuco, who wasn’t a ruler and was included on both my and Cacaso list, was much more important for it (he even proposed a bill to include a land reform specifically for the former slaves to ensure that they would be given full-citizenship).

Similarly, I’ve put Kubitschek very high on the list exactly because of popular perception. Having studied that period and his government as part of my academic formation, I’ve always thought he is somewhat overrated, but the common vision put him as the best president during 1945-1964 democracy and one of the greatest ever, given his presidency was marked by intense industrialization, relative political stability (for the period) and the foundation of Brasília as a new capital.

 

[Steb]

The thing about her popular perception is something that I’m considering. As I said it, she was popular among lower classes in the immediate aftermath of the abolition of slavery, but her popularity dwindle in the next years and decades…. Today she is seen with a minor role, basically just signing the bill, since she wasn’t really interested or engaged in politics. On this issue, for example, Joaquim Nabuco, who wasn’t a ruler and was included on both my and Cacaso list, was much more important for it (he even proposed a bill to include a land reform specifically for the former slaves to ensure that they would be given full-citizenship).

Similarly, I’ve put Kubitschek very high on the list exactly because of popular perception. Having studied that period and his government as part of my academic formation, I’ve always thought he is somewhat overrated, but the common vision put him as the best president during 1945-1964 democracy and one of the greatest ever, given his presidency was marked by intense industrialization, relative political stability (for the period) and the foundation of Brasília as a new capital.

Feel free to reorder the list or make other suggestions! I don't really have strong opinions on the matter.

From my uninformed foreigner viewpoint, Princess Isabel seems like an interesting and influential figure, which seems definitely sufficient to put her on the list, but that may not be enough to put her in the top 3-4, I don't know. Uninformed foreigner viewpoints are valuable (most people who play are uninformed foreigners!) but so is the viewpoint of knowledgeable people like yourself of course, so I'm happy to go with whatever you think, keeping in mind that the thing to maximize is fun and not academic correctness.