Civ Unique Ability Elimination Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Leucarum

Emperor
Joined
Dec 21, 2018
Messages
1,408
I had a quick whack at making the two rounds more directly comparable. The thumbnails are the difference between GS and R&F (after dividing by the total number of abilities/units being compared in each round).

So anything above the line did relatively better post-GS, anything below the line did relatively worse.

We were more all over the place with the Civ UAs, but we were still fairly consistent. Looking at it this way, Egypt may have been the biggest improver...

With the UUs the battering ram nerf definitely did its thing, cavalry almost uniformly down, biggest gainers were mostly melee.

Not sure if I should have replied to this thread or started a new one? As these get locked down and it also has some stuff about the UU thread....

Civ UAs
Civ_UA_GS_RF.png

UUs
UU_GS_RF.png
 
Last edited:

Krajzen

Deity
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
3,294
Location
Poland
I had a quick whack at making the two rounds more directly comparable. The thumbnails are the difference between GS and R&F (after dividing by the total number of abilities/units being compared in each round).

So anything above the line did relatively better post-GS, anything below the line did relatively worse.

We were more all over the place with the Civ UAs, but we were fairly consistent. Looking at it this way, Egypt may have been the biggest improver...

With the UUs the battering ram nerf definitely did its thing, cavalry almost uniformly down, biggest gainers were mostly melee.

Not sure if I should have replied to this thread or started a new one? As these get locked down and it also has some stuff about the UU thread....

Civ UAs
View attachment 533653

UUs
View attachment 533654

Great stuff!

So for some reason
- The biggest positive change is Egypt, England, Brazil, Russia, Aztec
- The biggest negative change is Persia, France, Norway, Nubia, Macedon
Rest of civs have mostly very similar placement.

Can anyone reliably explain those 10 anomalies? Besides England UA which obviously got completely changed (although I would never place it that high, hell its high place is one of my biggest shocks). Egypt only got flood immunity and that somehow skyrocketed Iteru like 20 positions forward? I also fail to understand drastic fall of Nubia and Macedon which still seem very good to me.

Another observation: Khmer and India are still trash at the bottom, even after three additional bonuses given to Dharma. I think Indian UA should be simply completely scrapped and redesigned into some new truly unique ability, same with Khmer.

China, Spain and Georgia are still at the bottom as well.

Note how well balanced GS civs are, with only 1 of them in top 10 and 1 in bottom 10 (and at acceptable 33 - Phoenicia).
 
Last edited:

lotrmith

King
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
725
Personal opinions: Georgia ranks low because people really just don't like Religion or pursuing a religious victory, which Georgia excels at by chaining golden ages using Exodus of the Evangelist. It's niche but strong, but understandable that it's not a preferred playstyle and thus ranked low either by preference or ignorance. Similarly the Khmer and using missionaries combined with Reliquaries to spam a relic cultural victory, but that only comes from their unique building. I'd hope that serves them well in a UB threas but won't be surprised if it doesn't.

I'm surprised Nubia and Macedon were ever ranked so high, but perhaps that's a result of trying to consider the Civ as a whole as opposed to objective value of the individual abilities/units. If you were ranking Civs overall Nubia and Macedon surely would be that high.

Persia and Norway almost certainly fell due to relative strength to the new Maori.

I can't imagine how or why Aztec increased. Their relative power went down in RF due to Governors and didn't budge in GS (and personally I've always found them overrated).

Egypt and Russia I can attribute to disaster protection. Russia undeserved, Egypt well deserved. Brazil up for lumbermills on rainforest.

France has always seemed mediocre to me.. perhaps with new civs on the list they are just more mediocre by comparison?
 
Last edited:

Kwami

Deity
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
2,268
I think India was voted down based on the old ability and not the improved one. The comments at the time support this idea. It's too bad, really. India's revised ability is actually quite good.

Egypt is doing much better because Sphinxes are better and because flood immunity is actually pretty great. Also, they have an advocate in The Game Mechanic, who probably has a few fans around here.
 

bbbt

Deity
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
2,549
Besides England UA which obviously got completely changed (although I would never place it that high, hell its high place is one of my biggest shocks). Egypt only got flood immunity and that somehow skyrocketed Iteru like 20 positions forward?
Both are not particularly strong but are thematic and relate to the new features in GS, which I think adds a lot to people's perceptions. I.e. Englands UA is where it is not because it turns England into a powerhouse but because a lot of players enjoy setting up these high adjacency IZs surrounded by green disctricts

I also fail to understand drastic fall of Nubia and Macedon which still seem very good to me.

Well archers are weaker post GS. But I feel like both of these had people repeating "You can't consider the rest of the Civ just the UA in isolation and the UA itself isn't that strong". Was that rule emphasized as much in the first go around?

Another observation: Khmer and India are still trash at the bottom, even after three additional bonuses given to Dharma. I think Indian UA should be simply completely scrapped and redesigned into some new truly unique ability, same with Khmer.

I would be happy if India just got something like "population requires half the normal housing and amenties" or something size focused instead. However, I actually think Dharma should be a bit higher based on the new abilities (the bonus amenity especially) - I suspect a lot people didn't realize it had been revised.
 

Eagle Pursuit

Scir-Gerefa
Moderator
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
16,505
I think India is considered poorly for the same reason as Georgia cited above, namely religious victory just isn't popular.

I recently tried their new ability and I found it hilarious to convert other Holy Cities by focusing about 4-6 Trade Routes against them.
 

DWilson

Where am I? What turn is it?
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
1,967
Location
Milwaukee, WI, USA
Not super useful, because of the additional eight civs. But I like looking at it anyway.

1. Maori - Mana (new)
2. Greece - Plato's Republic (no change)
3. Kongo - Nkisi (+1)
4. Aztec - Legend of the Five Suns (+7)
5. Russia - Mother Russia (+7)
6. Japan - Meiji Restoration (-3)
7. Australia - Land Down Under (-6)
8. Scotland - Scottish Enlightenment (-1)
9. Mongolia - Örtöö (-1)
10. Netherlands - Grote Rivieren (-4)
11. The Ottomans - Great Turkish Bombard (new)
12. Brazil - Amazon (+7)
13. England - Workshop of the World (+13)
14. Zulu - Isibongo (-5)
15. Hungary - Pearl of the Danube (new)
16. Scythia - People of the Steppe (-6)
17. Nubia - Ta-Seti (-12)
18. Mali - Songs of the Jeli (new)
19. Egypt - Iteru (+14)
20. Sweden - Nobel Prize (new)
21. Germany - Free Imperial Cities (-7)
22. Inca - Mit'a (new)
23. Poland - Golden Liberty (+2)
24. Rome - All Roads Lead To Rome (-7)
25. Sumeria - Epic Quest (-7)
26. Canada - Four Faces of Peace (new)
27. Macedon - Hellenistic Fusion (-14)
28. Cree - Nihithaw (-12)
29. America - Founding Fathers (no change)
30. Arabia - The Last Prophet (-7)
31. Indonesia - Great Nusantara (-7)
32. Persia - Satrapies (-17)
33. Mapuche - Toqui (-12)
34. Phoenicia - Mediterranean Colonies (new)
35. China - Dynastic Cycle (-8)
36. Norway - Knarr (-16)
37. Georgia - Strength In Unity (-7)
38. Spain - Treasure Fleet (-10)
39. Korea - Three Kingdoms (-8)
40. France - Grand Tour (-18)
41. India - Dharma (-7)
42. Khmer - Grand Barays (-10)
 

DWilson

Where am I? What turn is it?
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
1,967
Location
Milwaukee, WI, USA
  1. Greece - Plato's Republic (+1)
  2. Kongo - Nkisi (+2)
  3. Aztec - Legend of the Five Suns (+8)
  4. Russia - Mother Russia (+8)
  5. Japan - Meiji Restoration (-2)
  6. Australia - Land Down Under (-5)
  7. Scotland - Scottish Enlightenment (no change)
  8. Mongolia - Örtöö (no change)
  9. Netherlands - Grote Rivieren (-3)
  10. Brazil - Amazon (+9)
  11. England - Workshop of the World (+15)
  12. Zulu - Isibongo (-3)
  13. Scythia - People of the Steppe (-3)
  14. Nubia - Ta-Seti (-9)
  15. Egypt - Iteru (+18)
  16. Germany - Free Imperial Cities (-2)
  17. Poland - Golden Liberty (+8)
  18. Rome - All Roads Lead To Rome (-1)
  19. Sumeria - Epic Quest (-1)
  20. Macedon - Hellenistic Fusion (-7)
  21. Cree - Nihithaw (-5)
  22. America - Founding Fathers (+7)
  23. Arabia - The Last Prophet (no change)
  24. Indonesia - Great Nusantara (no change)
  25. Persia - Satrapies (-10)
  26. Mapuche - Toqui (-5)
  27. China - Dynastic Cycle (no change)
  28. Norway - Knarr (-8)
  29. Georgia - Strength In Unity (+1)
  30. Spain - Treasure Fleet (-2)
  31. Korea - Three Kingdoms (no change)
  32. France - Grand Tour (-10)
  33. India - Dharma (+1)
  34. Khmer - Grand Barays (-2)
Here you are, new civs removed.

(For possible reasons so much could change, I would say a couple things. First, many of these are pretty small changes, more explained by movement around them than the abilities themselves. Next, time of day of this getting started matters, as you will see variability between groups in different time zones. Even further, different voters participating to different extents. Next, meta changes and passionate arguments swaying the crowd in one thread or the other. Changes to existing civs (often in the form of small addition), patches rebalancing things, etc. With all of this said, I'm mildly surprised we saw six without changes, four 1 spot changes, and four 2 spot changes).
 
Last edited:

Aurelesk

Prince
Joined
Oct 26, 2017
Messages
490
I think India is considered poorly for the same reason as Georgia cited above, namely religious victory just isn't popular.

As much I do agree with your point with India, I tend to disagree with Georgia.

+2 Spread for Missionnaries is really useful in early game, allowing to quickly kill newborn enemy religion right inside the capital. Furthermore, the bonus Amenity add up really quickly, and if you playing on large map, you will not bother about Amenity problem anymore (your own religion works too). And of course, having Follower Belief of all religion is really really good. Well, I end up to just have 4 Faith/per wonder and be allowed to buy Warrior Monk, but still.


What does Georgia ability have that help for religious victory? Nothing. Does it help to get the first Golden Age? No. Does it help to get the second Golden Age? Yes, but only if you were in a Golden Age in the previous era, and you are not guaranteed to get a Golden Age anyway. This ability is weak. Confortable, but weak. Yeah, in some games this ability allows you to get in perpetual Golden Age, but in some other, it allows you to get 1 more and you don't really feel a difference or that mattered. In that sense, it does feel the same as France's ability: I don't think the bonus Production or the double Tourism from wonder mattered in my cultural victory, or saved me so few turns that it didn't matter.
I am not here to judge the whole Georgian civilization, only its ability. And the ability, at least for me, feel very weak.
 

Arraz

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 26, 2019
Messages
70
The biggest positive change is Egypt,England, Brazil, Russia, Aztec
- The biggest negative change is Persia, France, Norway, Nubia, Macedon

Yes mostly expectable.

June update nerfed cavalry & battering ram. But also the ability to make siege with archers. (Nubia).

Thx to June update, .Turtling is far easier this explains Macedon ranking lower while Brasil is higher. (+Lumber mills on rainforests)

For Russia, the death of the harvest pantheon is what helped the most imo.

England & Egypt received buffs. No wonder they are higher.

For France, it's just a guess but I think that cultural victories are now better understood and we no longer value most wonders as we did. I am surprised it was ranked so high to begin with.

I
 

DWilson

Where am I? What turn is it?
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
1,967
Location
Milwaukee, WI, USA
Not just wonders being less valued, but much of the culture meta is influenced by rock bands (which I personally find a bit too powerful- though, to be fair I don't care for culture victories much in the current form as a whole, and I dislike the implementation of rock bands entirely. Generally speaking, I would make national parks and wonders the most potent tools for cultural victories, followed closely be great works, much behind that cultural tiles, then only further supplemented by weakened resorts and performers).
 

Victoria

Regina
Supporter
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
11,883
England’s UA so thematically fits them as well and voting is not based just on strength.
India’s ability to smile more I found subtly very strong, warring in a dark age is possible.

I also think the changes are largely attributed to who is voting. Their playstyle and who they have played with and how they play a civ.
 

KayAU

Emperor
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
1,052
Thanks to everybody who have provided analysis and comparison after the voting ended. I am glad this thread has been allowed to continue so that we can discuss the results. :)

It is interesting to note how differently some abilities score, even where there isn't much which has changed. For instance, I recon Norway's ability is just about as good or bad as it was before, yet it has dropped from the middle of the field to the bottom tier. The only major difference I can see, is that there is now another civ which has early ocean exploration, and who does it a lot better. Still, many argue that you shouldn't even consider abilities in context of the civ's other traits...it seems strange then that another specific civ's abilities should knock you down 16 places.

Similarly, I don't think Persia's ability has changed much...perhaps it could be that internal trade routes are no longer as good compared with international ones? Still, they do get some nice extra value in the early game, where it counts the most.

Having said that, I don't think it is all that easy to consistently rank these abilities. With UUs, you largely just need to consider their military application. With UAs, their value to you will vary more with playstyle, and to some extent, game settings. I think there's also an issue that there aren't really many UAs which are truly bad, and none which are completely useless. It is not hard to make a case for most of these abilities...especially since you are allowed to consider things like uniqueness and fun. Even the lowest ranked ability, Grand Barays, has some benefits, and I kind of like putting farms around Aqueducts.
 

Victoria

Regina
Supporter
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
11,883
Even the lowest ranked ability, Grand Barays, has some benefits, and I kind of like putting farms around Aqueducts.
I loved playing with this ability when I made 10 cities of size 30, completely changed my view on it.
I think we all continue to mature our views the more we play.
It would be interesting to analyse who voted in each and how votes changed between the 2 as that would show interesting results but is probably too sensitive.
New civs change old choices too, Norway being a great example. I love exploring and would have voted Norway in an earlier vote but it would be Kupe all the way now.
I did not vote in the last one and in this one joined late and having just played some games as Australia and been continually let down by them my votes alone may have changed their placement. You need hundreds of people voting to get a result more stable.
 

Browd

Dilettante
Administrator
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
11,999
Location
Rural Vermont
Moderator Action: As the game is done, thread closed. Reminder that moderator approval is required to start a new elimination game thread.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom