Civ V Modding

[Aesir Rising]

One of the video interviews described Civ V as being ever better for modding and customization than IV. But with Steam, how is that possible? Unless I'm misunderstanding something the SDK and DLL modifications will be more difficult, if not entirely impossible. (Due to integration of SteamWorks in the game exe, among other reasons).

 

[Sir Ralph]

What companies promise and what they keep are two different things, especially if it's promises that are subjective ("better for ...") and can't be proven.

 

[eireksten]

How many threads are to be made on this subject? Steam does not in any way make modifications more difficult. Steam games can be modded just as any other game. You probably can't make changes to the Steamworks library through your mod (and are likely not getting access to that library's code), but why would you want to do that? You could never change the STL of C++ either, but that was obviously not a problem.

If anything will interfere with modding, that be DLC rights. But if Firaxis/2K decides to release DLC that can't be modded, you should complain to them. That's not Steam's fault.

 

[Commander Bello]

If anything will interfere with modding, that be DLC rights. But if Firaxis/2K decides to release DLC that can't be modded, you should complain to them. That's not Steam's fault.

But Steam-integration is the media for them to do so. Actually, Steam will earn money for their service - which, to be exact, is a service for the publisher, not for the gamer.

Therefore, Steam is very closely related to that issue.

 

[eireksten]

But Steam-integration is the media for them to do so. Actually, Steam will earn money for their service - which, to be exact, is a service for the publisher, not for the gamer.

Therefore, Steam is very closely related to that issue.

So, you're saying that since Steamworks provides Firaxis with a platform for distributing DLC, we can blame Valve for any legal issues arising between the Firaxis DLC and mods?

Valve doesn't say anything at all about what kind of DLC the platform should be used for. As already stated a million times around here by Steam "haters", this kind of DLC could have been released outside of Steam (and even might be, for all I know).

Basically, if Firaxis wants to make the most moddable game ever, they can do so even when using Steamworks.

I don't see any reason to complain to Valve about allowing Firaxis to distribute DLC using their framework. At least not for the sake of modding.

 

[Aesir Rising]

How many threads are to be made on this subject? Steam does not in any way make modifications more difficult. Steam games can be modded just as any other game.

You must be new to Steam. You might have something in theory, but in practice there are a large number of games in my Steam library that don't play well with mods.

Civ IV is one of them.

Go ahead and document the steps required for Blue Marble or RoM to get installed for Steam users please. Thanks.

 

[The_J]

So, you're saying that since Steamworks provides Firaxis with a platform for distributing DLC, we can blame Valve for any legal issues arising between the Firaxis DLC and mods?

He didn't say that .
But that we have an observation method is still related to the topic, even when Valve has nothing to do with it.

 

[eireksten]

You must be new to Steam. You might have something in theory, but in practice there are a large number of games in my Steam library that don't play well with mods.

Civ IV is one of them.

Go ahead and document the steps required for Blue Marble or RoM to get installed for Steam users please. Thanks.

Blue Marble
Copy the Blue Marble installer into the beyond the sword folder. edit: I realize now this is not really necessary)
Double-click the installer.
Choose your settings and click install.
Note: As the Blue Marble mod was created without Steam in mind, it looks for the original Civilization executable. You therefore need to copy this file from the vanilla civ folder to the bts folder. As Civ5 will be Steam based as standard, this problem will obviously not arise there.

I haven't installed RoM. I'll do it now and return to this thread.

 

[eireksten]

He didn't say that .
But that we have an observation method is still related to the topic, even when Valve has nothing to do with it.

So we all agree that he went aside topic. Good to know. My claims were directed at this topic, which is Civ5 modding.

 

[Aesir Rising]

I haven't installed RoM. I'll do it now and return to this thread.

Hey, that's awesome, thanks! Since you're on a roll, if you don't mind I'll go ahead and compile the list of games I have in Steam that have problems with custom content and mods, in particular those that rely on non-default paths, binary changes to executables or DLLs, and so on. You can then sort thiose issues out and lend support to your original statement that:

Steam does not in any way make modifications more difficult. Steam games can be modded just as any other game.

We'll start with Sid Meier's Railroads! and the SMRI project.

 

[eireksten]

Then I'm pretty sure we can attribute problems with those mods to the developers. And the fact that most mods for games have been made for non-Steam versions. Again, if Firaxis wants to make Steam Civ5 moddable, they can. That does not mean that all Steam games are just as moddable (as not all developers have made this design choice).

edit: Unless I'm mistaken, Civ5 will even have an in-game mod-browser (probably closely related to the DLC browser). It wouldn't surprise me if downloading a mod includes installation of it (at least optionally). Either way, I'm sure even less geeky gamers will be able to follow installation instructions. Sadly, for Civ4, most of these have referred to the non-Steam version.

 

[Aesir Rising]

Ok so now that we've successfully completed the derailment, can we get back to the original topic?

But with Steam, how is that possible? Unless I'm misunderstanding something the SDK and DLL modifications will be more difficult, if not entirely impossible. (Due to integration of SteamWorks in the game exe, among other reasons).

 

[Commander Bello]

I don't see any reason to complain to Valve about allowing Firaxis to distribute DLC using their framework. At least not for the sake of modding.

I just assume that both we take it for granted that Steam will "protect" the content of the DE? (Which, by the way, comes at costs of 1/5th of the whole "standard" version with just providing 1/18th of the "standard" no. of civilizations and a map and - based on the majority of interpretations - maybe an additional scenario. In any case, compared with the former add-ons, this means significantly higher prices).

In case we would agree about this, I want to stretch it even further and will predict, that any other DLC (in case of being sold - and in that case it will be done via Steam) will be similarily "protected"?

Which of course is all good and fine, I am not going to deny a company's right to sell stuff to their customers.

Yet, in case of 2k it is Steam to provide them with the necessary means to do so.
Actually, I have to admit that I heavily doubt 2K would do such a thing if not empowered by Steam. Seems to be proven by the sheer fact that they did not do so in the past.

 

[Thyrwyn]

sigh. and here I thought we would finally have a thread that wasn't about Steam.

They have said that it will not be a problem and that mods will be able to be distributed through sites other than Steam (such as civfanatics.com). They have said that Steam will only be required for activation. They have said that the game will be more moddable than Civ IV.

Yes, they could be lying - but if you are going to go that route you would have to conclude that anything they have said could be a lie - including the fact that the game will require Steam at all.

 

[eireksten]

I just assume that both we take it for granted that Steam will "protect" the content of the DE? (Which, by the way, comes at costs of 1/5th of the whole "standard" version with just providing 1/18th of the "standard" no. of civilizations and a map and - based on the majority of interpretations - maybe an additional scenario. In any case, compared with the former add-ons, this means significantly higher prices).

No, I do not agree to that, actually. Firaxis/2K is the owner of the DLC, and are in fact free to distribute it through any other channel. If anyone are "protecting" the DLC, that would be them.

Of course, they could still do this, and have the DLC interfere with mods. But as they've stated Civ5 will be the most moddable game in the series, I'm still hoping there won't be any conflicts (though slightly worried, I have to admit). I read somewhere that other games had released freely moddable DLC, so the possibility is not entirely gone (in fact, I still think a lot of gamers would rather have the "official" version).

The deluxe edition costs 5 euros more than the standard edition at 50 (49.95), btw, so that would be 1/10 of the price (not 1/5). To me, it's more about supporting the developer than recieving as much stash as possible from the game, though.

Yet, in case of 2k it is Steam to provide them with the necessary means to do so.
Actually, I have to admit that I heavily doubt 2K would do such a thing if not empowered by Steam. Seems to be proven by the sheer fact that they did not do so in the past.

Civilization Revolution had DLC. Both free and at a cost. I feel confident that this is due to where the gaming industry is moving, and not Valve forcing 2K to do this.

 

[Commander Bello]

They have said that it will not be a problem and that mods will be able to be distributed through sites other than Steam (such as civfanatics.com). They have said that Steam will only be required for activation. They have said that the game will be more moddable than Civ IV.

Yes, they could be lying - but if you are going to go that route you would have to conclude that anything they have said could be a lie - including the fact that the game will require Steam at all.

Sorry, but you are missing the point.

Let's stay with Babylon for the moment.
May we assume that Nebuchadnezar will be a different leader from the ones in the standard version?
Most probably, the answer will be yes.

So, what about re-skinning Nebu and issuing a "mod" called "Ancient Babylonia"?
I mean, we are promised to get unprecedented modding abilities.
Do you think, this will be allowed, when "Babylon" will be sold for $10.00?

I for my part heavily doubt that it would be allowed.

Now, let's take it a bit further.
In WL, the Great Wall and the Warlord was invented (and some additional civilizations and so on).

Since DLC has been announced, what would happen if the Civ5 equivalent of the Warlord would be sold as a DLC? Let's call it DLC_2 (DLC_1, for that purpose, has been Babylon).

Would any modder be allowed to make use of that unit?
Most probably, the answer will be yes - since Steam seems to be the right means to ensure that only purchasers of that DLC will be allowed to make use of that modification.

Now, the next DLC may provide you with the Great Wall. Let's call it DLC_3.
The same principles will apply.

And finally, there will be a DLC with the Mongols (AFAIR, they have been invented with WL). That will be DLC_4.

What does this mean for the modders?
You may have the standard installation.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_2.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_2 and DLC_3.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_2 and DLC_3 and DLC_4.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_2 and DLC_4, yet without DLC_3.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_3 and DLC_4, yet without DLC_2.
.....
You see the picture?


In Civ4, we were facing add-ons every 18 months, which have set a new base for the modding community.
Chances are good that this may drastically change.

The community of civ players (under the assumption of sold DLC, since these will come with protection) will be split and segmented, thus making the former big modifications (FFH, RoM, and so on come to mind) less likely to be played by a major audience.

 

[eireksten]

@Commander Bello: You don't think they've actually thought of this issue?

 

[Commander Bello]

@Commander Bello: You don't think they've actually thought of this issue?

Actually, I think that Firaxis as developers are trying hard to make Civ5 the best game of the series - including moddability.

In addition, I think that 2K as publishers don't care about such things, as they try to make the most money ever possible.

Third, I guess that Steam as distribution service is very much interested in making sure that as much DLC as ever possible actually will be sold, since that is, what they get money for. I am even guessing that such things have already been fixed in the contracts between Steam and 2k.

And finally, I think that Firaxis has no vote in this whole matter.

 

[Vordrax]

Sorry, but you are missing the point.

Let's stay with Babylon for the moment.
May we assume that Nebuchadnezar will be a different leader from the ones in the standard version?
Most probably, the answer will be yes.

So, what about re-skinning Nebu and issuing a "mod" called "Ancient Babylonia"?
I mean, we are promised to get unprecedented modding abilities.
Do you think, this will be allowed, when "Babylon" will be sold for $10.00?

I for my part heavily doubt that it would be allowed.

Now, let's take it a bit further.
In WL, the Great Wall and the Warlord was invented (and some additional civilizations and so on).

Since DLC has been announced, what would happen if the Civ5 equivalent of the Warlord would be sold as a DLC? Let's call it DLC_2 (DLC_1, for that purpose, has been Babylon).

Would any modder be allowed to make use of that unit?
Most probably, the answer will be yes - since Steam seems to be the right means to ensure that only purchasers of that DLC will be allowed to make use of that modification.

Now, the next DLC may provide you with the Great Wall. Let's call it DLC_3.
The same principles will apply.

And finally, there will be a DLC with the Mongols (AFAIR, they have been invented with WL). That will be DLC_4.

What does this mean for the modders?
You may have the standard installation.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_2.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_2 and DLC_3.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_2 and DLC_3 and DLC_4.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_2 and DLC_4, yet without DLC_3.
You may have the std installation plus DLC_1 and DLC_3 and DLC_4, yet without DLC_2.
.....
You see the picture?

Modding with DLC is impossible, my friends. This is why The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion has no mods but a bunch of DLC, and Fallout 3 as well. I mean, who the hell can get around DLC these days? Pfft.

 

[eireksten]

@Commander Bello: So you are in fact afraid that 2K will ruin modding. That still does not make Valve the bad guy here. Also, as they've publicly have announced unprecedented modding capabilities, I still have my hopes up that they won't go to those lengths.

Go ahead and document the steps required for Blue Marble or RoM to get installed for Steam users please. Thanks.

Rise of Mankind

• Download the RoM files (use a torrent to ensure the download is not corrupt)
• Follow the instructions in the readme file from the downloaded archive:
  1. Locate your Civilization 4 installation folder from your hard drive.
  2. There go to subfolder named Beyond the Sword and under Beyond the Sword go to subfolder Mods.
  3. Unzip (edit: actually unrar) the mod to this Mods folder. Zip (rar) file contains the needed folder structure for the mod files so make sure your archiver program is set to unzip files with the folders.
  4. Start your Civ 4: Beyond the Sword normally and from start menu click "Load a mod". Choose Rise of Mankind mod from list and click ok.
  5. When game has reloaded itself with the mod, you can start playing.

Were you kidding me? I kind of expected it to slightly differ a little from non-Steam version. Seeing that you pointed out this mod and all. And yes, I've tried running and playing it (that's why it took so long ).

Ok so now that we've successfully completed the derailment, can we get back to the original topic?

Until proven otherwise I'll stand by my statement about modding, even when binaries are considered. It would seem really strange if this has not been accounted for. Even if Steam binaries were harder to mod, Firaxis could develop those as a wrapper around other binaries that are relevant to modding. That way we wouldn't have to enter those "pesky" Steam executables.