Civ V Roleplaying Challenge: Iroquois

[slobberinbear]

Hello again to all. I thought with the new game it would be fun to revisit the first RPC I did as Sitting Bull, this time of course with Hiawatha and the Iroquois. I make no claim to expertise and have played a handful of games since its release.

The point here is to play the game with an artificial set of "roleplaying" restrictions to make the game harder and more interesting without actually upping the difficulty. In this game, we are again trying to replicate the "noble savage" polyanna Hollywood version of native Americans ... no offense intended to anyone whose ox is gored here.

Without further adieu, the rules:

* No tree chopping (forest or jungle), except to access resources. In other words, we cannot improve forest or jungle tiles in any respect other than to improve a special resource.
* We will only use roads and harbors when necessary to establish trade between our settlements. We will otherwise rely on our Warpath power.
* May never adopt Autocratic or Rationalism social policies.
* Songhai and Aztec are considered other "native" nations. We will favor them in diplomacy against the non-natives (but see below).
* The first non-native civilization to offer us fair dealings (open borders) will receive our unquestioning loyalty against all others, unless they later attack us, in which case they will receive our undying hatred.
* We will not attempt a space victory. All other victory types are available.

I am of course open to any rule changes or suggestions before we begin. If you choose to play along, please use spoiler tags.

The settings: Prince/Continents/Ancient/Normal speed. I selected Songhai, Aztec, England, France, Germany, Russia, and of course America as the opponents:

Mohawk Warrior: A swordsman with a bonus fighting in forest or jungle. Requires Iron Working and Iron resource. This is useful in the early game but for both attack and defense, and can be also be helpful in mid-game if we have a lot of forest and jungle tiles. Plus, it looks cool and has a neat feathery icon.

Longhouse: A building that gives a bonus hammer to worked forest tiles. Replaces the Workshop and requires Metal Casting. I can see this being either very useful or completely a non-factor depending on geography. I am unclear from the Civilopedia description if the bonus hammer is the sole benefit here or if it also gets the regular Workshop boost for buildings constructed in the city.

The Great Warpath: Forest and Jungle tiles count as roads if within cultural borders. This should save a few worker turns here and there traveling. However, because it only grants its benefits within Iroquois territory, getting cultural expansion will be key.

Here is the start for the Iroquois nation:

Not a bad start, considering that we have two irrigable wheat tiles and a floodplain (actually two if you count the tile three hexes to the east of the start), all of which can be farmed for a decent net food bonus pre-Civil Service. This will allow us to work the marble and ivory, along with a mined hill. With two happy resources, food, and available hammers, this is more than acceptable for a starting location, but I am open to suggestions from the peanut gallery.

Techwise, Masonry and Trapping (and their prerequisites, Mining and Animal Husbandry) are obvious early techs so we can get the happiness online and start to expand. We will also want to get some use out of our Mohawk Warriors, so learning Iron Working and finding Iron will be important. Lastly, since we have Ivory, the capital can build a Circus, which is a very handy happiness building. This requires Horseback Riding and the Wheel, its prerequisite.

So an early tech order might be:

1. Animal Husbandry
2. Trapping
3. Mining
4. Masonry
5. Bronze Working
6. Iron Working
7. The Wheel
8. Horseback Riding

If we have horses, I may move Horseback Riding before Iron Working. Horsemen are very powerful and flexible units. We may also have to get Calendar in the tech order if there are Calendar happy resources nearby.

In terms of production, I will want to build one scout first. In my few offline games I have found scouts to be very useful for exploring ruins and uncovering the map. This will let me save my warrior(s) for barbarians. After that, a worker and a warrior or two are probably in order before starting on a settler around size four or so. I will then get some culture going with a monument so we can get a few social policies going, likely along the Liberty or Honor paths.

Build order:

1. Scout
2. Worker
3. Warriors until size four
4. Settler
5. Monument

Get your comments in, and welcome!

 

[madscientist]

I would settle inplace and head towards trapping first for the jumbos. Riverside wheat and a floodplains means a big bonus of food especially at Civil Service, which means the unchopped forrests are a bir advantage here. Too bad forrests cannot expand like CIV IV or you cannot plant your own for gold (we can buy everything else). NExt is likely mining/masonry as I think you can work a lot of mined hills with all that food.

Are lumbermills Allowed?

 

[slobberinbear]

I'm open to debate on Lumbermills. They don't seem very ... "native american." As I too have found Prince pretty easy, I'm going to say no just for the challenge.

Good to see you again, Mad.

 

[madscientist]

Good to see you again, Mad.

Ditto. WIth no unhealthiness from polution I have gotta think of a different angle on the Iroquois, Pollution Bull won't work this time.

 

[feelotraveller]

Like the techs (until at least Masonry) and the build order, except

"3. Warriors until size four"

I'd be wary of building more than one Warrior early on (at least until the settler's done it's thing) as the maintenance can quickly add up.

 

[slobberinbear]

Round One (32 Turns)

Hiawatha had gathered the people along the shores of the Great Water. Though he was known as a cunning orator, he had few words this day.

"Our home is here. Our days of wandering are over. Our children will grow the wheat and run with the mammoths!"

Hiawatha sent his one party of braves to scout the surrounding area. In the end, he decided to settle in place. The capital is coastal, with river access and sufficient food, production, and happiness.

As it turned out, there is another irrigable wheat and flood plain in the BFH ... for a total of 3 each ... meaning plenty of food for growth. Plus four mineable hills, the quarry, and the elephants for production, and whatever production I get from the forests. I am really liking this start.

As planned, Onondaga started building a Scout and researching Animal Husbandry, but as fate would have it, the Iroquois party of braves learned it first by searching some ancient ruins ...

"We can now harness the power of our animal brothers," Hiawatha said, nodding in satisfaction. "Let us learn more from the Earth Mother and study the ways of the Mammoth."

So on turn 2, we began to research Trapping.

As the braves explored eastward, they spied a strange cloud of smoke and foul odor in the northern hills ... exploring, they found many active air and water spirits within the ground ...

Meanwhile, a party of fast braves scouted to the south, whereupon they met an old hermit living in the ruins, who taught them the ways of the bow and arrow.

These tools of war were powerful; as a small tribe neared Onondaga, the swift scouts shot them with their vulture-feathered arrows. None survived.

The exploring braves and scouts met many others during their travels; small encampments of isolated tribes, and larger, more vigorous nations that rivaled the Iroquois in ambition and might.

The first, and friendliest were the Songhai tribe, who offered their cooperation to the Iroquois nation:

"I greet you, Askia. May you see with the eyes of the hawk," Hiawatha said, smiling.

"Your words are clever," Askia replied. "But I would rather have the strength of the bear. We are surrounded by other men, not of the Earth. These other men -- they cannot be trusted. They will destroy the land and take our women as slaves."

"Let us judge them by their actions, brave Askia. Until the day of war comes, the Iroquois and Songhai will work together."

Feasts were held, and bonds of brotherhood were made that day. Would the newborn pact last?

As Askia mentioned, there were others on the continent from distant places: the Americans, the English, and the Germans. All were cordial.

As of turn 32, the Iroquois had completed AH > Trapping > Mining > Masonry and had built a scout, worker, warrior, and settler. Onondaga's worker had farmed a wheat tile and built a camp on the elephant tile by the end of the Round. Here's a close-in view of the capital:

I may let the culture grow onto the northwestern wheat tile while I buy the marble tile to the east.

As a placeholder, I started to research Calendar via Pottery, due to the presence of nearby Calendar resources (see below). This non-military path seemed logical, given the large amount of available good land to settle. This also dictated my choice for the first Social Policy:

This appears to be a great map for a good old fashioned REX. Lots of land and sufficient happiness to make it work. Here is a clean overview, along with some close up maps of the eastern, southern, and western frontiers:

There is a lot of land to settle. I see 7-8 city sites within easy reach. So the Iroquois face several decisions.

1. Where to settle first?

I love the floodplains/sugar/incense are to the west. Great resources, cash flow, and it also blocks Askia. My only decision is whether to split that area into two cities (one on the coast, one inland) or have one uber-city there.

The fish and wheat area further to the west would also make a great GP farm, but I think I want to get the two happiness resources online first.

2. Techpath?

Getting Calendar seems the logical next step, though perhaps I should pick up Archery first, just to be safe. So maybe something like:

Archery > Pottery > Calendar > Bronze Working > Iron Working

3. Build Order?

To embrace the REX strategy, Onondaga needs to pump out settlers and military units. I will probably alternate between settlers, warriors, and workers. I will use the warriors to fogbust since I am delaying my military techs a bit.

Onondaga: Worker > Warrior > Settler > Monument > Worker > Warrior > Settler

4. City State Interactions?

I have four nearby City States: 1 Cultural, 1 Military, and 2 Maritime. I am reluctant to spend gold enhancing those relationships at the moment, though that may change once I get the heavy commerce city (sugar/incense) online. I will try to befriend them by doing their quests. In particular, I would like to ally with the cultural CS (Kuala Lumpur), but that CS is between Askia and I and may get targeted for early conquest by the Songhai.

I may also throw some money at the military CS nearby (Tyre), who has Gold. I could use that resource and getting some free units will help me keep the ol' power rating up while I'm REXing.

5. Social Policies?

Liberty is the obvious choice for REXing. I plan to take Collective Rule next for the bonus early growth.

Get your comments in!

 

[slobberinbear]

Round 2: the Ballad of Kuala Lumpur

The round involved serious expansion and lots of diplomacy, Hiawatha-style. It was an education for all concerned.

The first order of business, however, was settling the second camp of the fledgling Iroquois Nation. After due consideration and reflection, and ample input from the peanut gallery , we settled in the uber-commerce location suggested by the advisors:

"This land is fertile," his female advisor opined.

"You are indeed wise when it comes to fertility, Skankagawea," Hiawatha replied.

That's right ... 2 irrigable riverside wheat, plus 5 count' em 5 floodplains sugars. And a few regular floodplains and a sheep hex for good measure. Lots of commerce and food, and then specialists at the very high end ...

Shortly thereafter, one of the "newcomers" to the land approached, and became the Great White Father to the Iroquois people, with promises of cooperation.

Hiawatha's instincts were rarely wrong. He sized up the large elder of the German tribe and spoke.

"You honor me with your presence, elder."

"Cooperate vit me, und I vill give you sausages und beer," the rotund rascal replied.

"Yes, I see the wisdom in this, Great White Father. The Iroquois will cooperate with you."

And that wasn't all on the diplomatic front, oh no. For with all the city-states about (the scout-archer had found five, but there were more), there were plenty of opportunites to gain their favor by fighting with each other, disrupting barbarian tribes, and the like. Soon I had many optional missions to pursue.

On a seemingly unrelated note, the techpath for the round was:

Pottery > Calendar > Archery > Bronze Working > Iron Working > The Wheel.

This path enabled Osininka (city #2) to get its sugar up and running quickly, and the gold and happiness really started coming in with the multiple sugar plantations sending every Iroquois kid into insulin shock.

Anyway, this bounty of gold and happiness led to a diplomatic bonanza and civilization-wide chain reaction, as Hiawatha kinda went with the flow. Case in point. The scout-archer dispersed a barb encampment, gaining the friendship of the City-State of Florence in the process:

Well I figured I had the cash, and one good turn deserved another, right? So I went ahead and dropped another 250 gold on Florence to make them my Ally. This in turn got me lots of culture per turn, 4 horses (I had none nearby) and their Whale resource:

The resulting culture let me take a step down the Liberty Social Policy tree:

The worker bonus is nice (since I won't be making as many workers as normal, due to the no-chopping and reduced road rules in the RPC), but I really took it to get to the successor policies down the chain.

Anyway, the diplomatic game continued to unfold. Bizzy went into protective status with Cape Town, which was the target of two of City-States' ire. So my rudimentary war plans against Cape Town were shelved, so as not to aggravate the Great White Father. More on that later.

With all of the happiness and culture coming in, after building settler #2 I decided to go for a Wonder that would enhance the strategy:

As you can see, with Marble in the capital, a production focus, and a happiness-fueled Golden Age about to trigger, Stonehenge (and its 8 culture per turn) made a lot of sense. It also seemed so darned Native American.

Meanwhile, settler #2 went to the incense location between Osininka and Onandaga. This location would get several extra elephants, have good production, and nab another wheat tile.

In retrospect, the Iroquois settlement of Grand River was not in a horrible location (I wanted the incense for more happiness), there were other more pressing locations that would have been better, as will become apparent. At any rate, Grand river started on a Monument and Worker. Soon, a buzz was in the air. The Iroquois were prosperous and fecund. Yes, fecund.

"The middle stone is an image of me?" Hiawatha asked.

"No, warchief. That is the elephant totem."

And there was much rejoicing.

Yes, the cultural bounty just kept on getting better. Gold and happiness created culture, which opened up more social policies and border expansion, which was just a wonderful little positive feedback loop happening there. I was so happy, I almost missed this:

Yes, Askia had settled southward near the food-o-plenty great person farm location I had identified in round 1. I should have put my third city there to block him. After all, the distance penalties seem to be minor if not non-existent. Ah well.

But I was not to be deterred. Seizing the opportunity to expand my cultural output again, and being flush with Golden Age cash, I decided to spin the feedback flywheel again and dropped 500 gold on Kuala Lumpur, a cultural City-State very close to my borders and in between the Iroquois and Songhai. Even though they had no extra resources to give me, I wanted that extra Culture per turn. Alas, this was mistake #2 of the round.

You see, I had failed to note that Bismark had entered into a protective state with Kuala Lumpur. Thus, when I bribed them to be my allies, I angered the Great White Father! Oh noes!

Anyway, the cultural dividend was reaping rewards, which again I decided to parley into more culture:

Yes, the Iroquois were expanding and prospering and happiness was flowing through the veins of every red-blooded mohawk around.

Ironically, Germany later withdrew its protection of Kuala Lumpur. Could I rebuild the relationship with the Great White Father? Washington came calling with an offer for a pact of cooperation, but we Iroquois had made a blood bond with the fat German. There was no backing out. We had bridges to rebuild!

And yet the tale of Kuala Lumpur was not done, for Askia and the Songhai nation decided to pluck that fruit from the vine ...

"The Iroquois had befriended the Lumpur tribe," Hiawatha insisted.

"What do you care? They are weak! We will take their women as slaves and rule their lands. Be careful how you speak, Hiawatha," Askia warned. "The soft ways of the Lumpur's arts and crafts have dulled your warrior spirit!"

The Iroquois warchief left the Songhai camp grim-faced.

Well I had expressed my displeasure, but decided to go ahead and show it by going ahead and grabbing that Great Person farm site:

This was mistake #3. I should have settled to get Iron, which was located to my south and east. Ah well, the emotion of the moment had carried me away. Plus I figured that I was about to finish horseback riding, and I had 4 of Florence's finest horse resources to saddle up some Iroquois horsemen if necessary. Perhaps iron would not be necessary ...

On the theory that war was inevitable, I went ahead and adopted Honor for my next Social Policy. Might as well maximize my military might, eh?

And there I ended the round. Here is a large-view map of the geopolitical situation:

The issues of the round:

1. Attack Songhai?

Lumpur will give me gobs of influence if I kill three Songhai units. I don't have to actually invade him to do this. If I can just wipe out some units in the field, I can probably generate enough cash to rush-buy and produce a few horses (after I finish HBR in two turns) to hurt Askia and punish him for his insolent attack on my allies.

I'm in a good position to go on the offensive, even though I haven't built a significant number of units. But I have a good map position and am in no imminent danger of having my lands grabbed by the AI. I also have gobs of happiness in case I want to conquer the Songhai.

2. Repair relations with the Great White Father?

Or just wait for him to come to me?

3. Tech Order

After finishing Horseback Riding, I am tempted to take Metal Casting so I can build my Longhouses, which will greatly aid production. Construction is probably worth a go as well so I can build Colosseums, which I will need whether I REX or War.

4. Mistakes of the Round:

* settling city #3 for the incense rather than getting the Great Person site to the far west, which would have blocked Askia.
* bribing Kuala Lumpur to become my ally, dropping 500 gold, pissing off Bismark and setting me up for a war with Askia, all for 8 culture per turn.
* settling city #4 to get the (somewhat border-impinged) Great Person site to the far west, rather than getting iron hooked up
* not trading my excess sugar to the AI for cash and resources. I simply forgot to trade my extras.

Get your comments in! Don't make me do this RPC alone!

 

[Gallean88]

THIS NEEDS MOAR COMMENTS NAO.
Anyways, great round so far. I actually like the mistakes, they make this more roleplay and less 1337 strategy with long painful number crunching. I would say definitely pump out a few horses and go to war with askia. Kill a few units for that lumpur influence, and if you can keep your momentum, grab the city he build north of the GP farm.
As for Bismark, try trading with him. Otherwise, he's probably still going to be mad at you for warmongering, so might as well prepare for an inevitable war with him at some point as well.

 

[tokala]

Looking good so far. Some comments:

Great Warpath main benefit is not reduced worker overhead, but reduced trade network maintenance. And you get amazing mobility for units in your territory, so you can get by with very few units for home defence duty. Chariot archers are quite useful for the Iroquois. You should also connect Osinika and Grand River ASAP.

We have Marble and great production potential in Onondaga. This makes it possible to use it as a wonder pump, if you don't want to go the warmongering route. It would probably have been more efficient to skip the monument in the Capital and go directly for Stonehenge.

Don't be afraid to settle on a resource tile if it makes for a better city placement. Recource yields are low in Civ5, so you lose very little if settling on a luxury resource.
We have lots of resource tiles and good city spots, you might need more workers than you thought.

If you don't go for all-out warfare, patronage will be a most useful SP (and be VERY in character for the Iroquois). You could pop either Metal Casting or Currency via GL, you will need these techs in short order anyway

Gao is located in a rather mediocre position for a Capital, so Askia won't be much of a threat.

 

[slobberinbear]

Round 3: War!

War was brewing in the Iroquois nation. But first, Hiawatha had some economic matters to attend to:

These dealings with the Great White Fuhrer and Washington enabled lots of fun stuff this round, as I previously had lamented my "mistake" for not settling my iron tiles sooner. As it turned out, my "mistake" was a boon of sorts.

The Tech Order of the round: finished HBR (Horsemen, Circus) > Mathematics (Courthouses for conquered cities) > Metal Casting (Longhouses!) > Sailing (workboats) > Writing (Library) > Construction (Colosseums) > Currency (Market) > started on Philosophy. I was a little shocked to realize that I had missed Sailing and Writing and backfilled them quickly so that I could get my Great Person farm going, which had two fish tiles.

But back to the dispute with the Songhai. Basically, Bizzy and Washington's bonus cash, plus American Iron, allowed me to create an army out of thin air. I upgraded two warriors to Mohawk Warriors and went back to Askia for one last shot at peace. As you will recall, he had attacked my ally, Kuala Lumpur and then tried a weaselly apology. I was having none of it.

"The Lumpur tribe has harmed no one. They are our brothers. Leave their lands, brother," Hiawatha said, his calmness belied by the fire in his eyes.

"The Iroquois do not rule Songhai!" Askia screamed defiantly.

I sent an upgraded Mohawk and an archer north to kill some Songhai for Kuala Lumpur, while a lone Mohawk went on a mission of reprisal to Tombuctu, the city encroaching on my GP Farm.

The city was razed in the second round of fighting. That, plus the destruction of Askia's units attacking Kuala Lumpur (I'm not sure they really needed my help, to be honest ... the Songhai assault force consisted of an archer and two warriors) prompted this laugh out loud moment after Askia offered and I accepted peace:

Yep, Askia went into protection mode of Kuala Lumpur not two turns after I forced a peace on his sorry butt. Per the RPC rules, I gave my fellow "native" buddy a break and let him live. Besides, he's a trading partner and I didn't have the spare happiness to conquer him.

The Songhai war was thus brief and decisive. Good thing too, because the Great White Father came calling:

I promptly sent my two Mohawks, an archer, and a horseman I'd finished to the far north in search of Liz's lands, hopefully where they could join up with my scout/archer that was on the far northern end of the continent.

While my attack force was en route, I settled two more cities for some happiness and strategic resources and grabbed two more social policies. My cities were for the most part growing fast and I needed to continually keep an eye on happiness.

In another amusing Songhai moment, Askia resettled Tombuctu in the same location as the city I'd razed at the start of the round. Fortunately, with my pile of cash from my commerce city and my sugar trades, I had previously bought the bordering wheat tiles out of an abundance of caution. And as you can see, I got a nice post-peace trade out of him.

Finally, my assault force found London and was massing for attack. Elizabeth made this offer:

"I must refuse, White Queen, for the Great White Father said we are at war with the English," Hiawatha said regretfully.

"Oh bother."

As it turned out, London was Liz's sole settlement, which I found rather shocking. I'm not sure what she was doing with her hammers, but they certainly weren't going into settlers.

By the end of the round, then, happiness had become an issue due to annexation of London. With more war booty in the coffers, I pulled the trigger on another City State alliance for culture and happiness:

This alliance, along with a circus here and a colosseum there, kept the happy faces flowing.

Here's a view of the Iroquois nation at the end of the round:

In the north, Bizzy has three cities near London. Washington has two cities. Around this time I started to feel bad about Prince difficulty.

Issues for the Next Round:

1. Victory Plan: I have marginalized Askia, Liz is defeated, and both Bizzy and Washington are somewhat hemmed in by City-States. If I can keep the peace, I'm thinking Cultural makes the most sense, but if I go further down the Patronage line maybe I can win Diplomatically with enough City-State allies. Domination will require the Great White Father and Askia to backstab me at some point.

2. Techpath: After Philosophy finishes, I probably need to get Civil Service to boost growth and the naval techs to hook up London to my trade network and get exploring the oceans so I can meet Monty, Cathy, and Nappy. Education and Acoustics will open up wonders and other cultural and happiness buildings.

3. Expansion: I'm going to settle at least one more city on the continent (to the north of Kuala Lumpur there is an absolute profusion of sheep tiles in one concentrated area). Beyond that, I have to be careful about not irritating Bizzy with expansion in his direction. Hopefully there will be some islands to settle too. I'm finally building a trireme to look around a bit.

 

[tokala]

If you don't use the culture win exploit, it will be VERY hard to get a cultural victory with that many cities, and in any case it will take a looong time

And as you have for all intents and purposes already secured your continent, you should prioritize getting a caravel or two and find out how the rest of the world is doing