Civ VI Leader Pass 2

What I meant was the Ayyubids aren't representative of the Arabian civilization as a whole – especially of its most important manifestation in the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates. What I would have liked was at least the possibility of the Abbasids/Umayyads being represented alongside the Ayyubids...
I understand. The original Saladin could have easily been another, like Harun al-Rashid for an Abbasid leader.
Of course, as was pointed out earlier, that was him when he was a Vizier, so I guess technically you could view it as the Fatimid Caliphate before he established the Ayyubid Dynasty.
 
Instead of telling what I would like as new leaders for the Leader Pass #2, I want to “predict” what it could be. I think this is a nice game to play. So here are a lot of assumptions!

When we look out the 19 new Leaders of the Pass, most of them (14) are from the Base Game, and then 1 of them are from each DLC: Civilizations & Scenarios (C&S, as Nader Shah / Persia), Rise & Fall (R&F, as Sejong / Korea), Gathering Storm (GS, as Sundiata Keita / Mali) and New Frontier (NF, as Theodora / Byzantium). The only exception being Suleiman the Magnificent, as we all know their bias toward gigantic hats.

The Leader Pass introduced no new Civilizations, had a 2 male for 1 female ratio, was teamed by 3 around a theme. It was free if the Anthology or all DLC had been bought before. Being free was a way to sell the Anthology to players. Being free this time has no leverage. So they have two choices:
  • Paid DLC: Therefore they should have 2 leaders out of 3 available for the base game, as it would be quite frustrating to pay for something that you couldn’t play as because you didn’t have all the DLC. Plus, it needs extra effort and care, as the players would be less tolerant of something they paid.
  • Free to all DLC: Therefore they are more free on who to add to the game, since players cannot complain about not enjoying everything about free content.

They are also not afraid to reuse tired old memes, and tried overly popular characters such as Trade-Elizabeth (wybiiatawe), Onion-Suleiman, or Ramses, neither of adding new characters never seen before like Nzinga Mbande, Sundiata Keita or Ludwig II for example. I will take the route of the paid DLC one, which is the most limitative option to pick.

So here a guess:
Pass 7: League of the Wise
America: George Washington
The Netherlands: William the Silent (require Rise & Fall Expansion Pack)
Brazil: Pedro II, "Venerable" Persona (Older, and friendly)

Pass 8: Shadows of Asia
Khmer: Neang Neak (require Khmer and Indonesia Civilization & Scenario Pack)
India: Empress Nur Jahan
India: Gandhi, "Ambulance Corps" Persona (Younger)

Pass 9: Leaders of the Frozen Steppes
Russia: Catherine the Great
Russia: Peter, "Maritime" Persona (Caped and Armored)
Scythia: Tomirys, "Virago" Persona

Pass 10: Champions of the Faith
Spain: Isabella
Ethiopia: King Ezana (require Ethiopia Pack from the New Frontier Pass)
Kongo: Alphonse I, "Enlightened" Persona (Mvemba A Nzinga)

Pass 11: Empires of the New World
Aztec: Acamapichtli
Inca: Huayna Capac (require Gathering Storm Expansion Pack)
Maya: Pacal II (require Maya & Gran Colombia Pack from the New Frontier Pass)

Pass 12: "Continuators" of the Roman Idea
France: Napoléon
Germany / Hungary: Maria Theresa
Rome: Julius Caesar, "Senator" Persona (require to have access to Julius Caesar)


A lot of the picks are underwhelming. I added new rules I wanted to follow: Target overrepresentation. 6 Civilizations are going to have those rules. The big 3 (America, China and India) would have 3 leaders + persona while the other 3 (England, France and Russia) would have 2 leaders + persona. Dual leaders like Kublai and Eleanor don’t count. That is why Washington, Nur Jahan, “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi, Napoléon, Catherine the Great, and “Maritime” Peter have been added. Sure, some of them are overrated. I wish I was knowledgeable about American history to add a female leader. Napoléon is also a very dividing leader: some absolutely love him, and some wish to not see him again.

It was a challenge to pick which one of the DLC civilizations to include. I settled with the Khmer (C&S), the Netherlands (R&F), the Incan (GS), and Ethiopia (NFP). The Mayan were my Joker, just like Suleiman was an added bonus in the Leader Pass #1, so I could complete the “Empires of the New World” pass.

Some of the picks might be quite… weird. Due to the limitation, there was no other choice possible. Tomyris is the last female leader of the base game without a Persona, while Kongo is the only African vanilla civilization. That is why they both have a Persona. Nonetheless, Tomyris being both a Great General and a Queen, she is suitable for more: there is a reason Cyrus wanted her as his wife. Mvemba A Nzinga could also benefit from having a real ability: currently, there is no real reason to not play as Mbande.

William the Silent is William of Orange. The franchise has been very inconsistent about his name (William or Willem van Oranje), so I wanted to be consistent with that by spelling it differently again. Pedro II is quite disliked as some of us call him Dom Satan. This older and broken persona would be a nice and friendly one. The Shadows of Asia pass is quite… obscure. Neang Neak (or Queen Soma) is credited as the first monarch of Cambodia. Nothing is really known about her or his husband, so you could rightfully say this is a Dido scenario again. Nur Jahan is one of the only Mughal Empress to have and use power, to the point of having coins with her image. Her addition is less than a stretch, and allows to both represent the Mughal period of India, and have a female leader. “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi seems offtopic, until we realize we have “Rough Rider” Teddy. I guess this is better than “Nuclear Warlord” Gandhi. Peter the Great has a famous painting of him in Armor with a cape, perfect for a Persona. As the founder of St. Petersburg and funding the Russia Navy, this is a way to give him a new focus to compensate for his underwhelming ability. King Ezana is famous for his conversion, but as a King of Aksum and builder of Stele / Obelisk, there is quite a lot to work with. Acamapichtli is an Aztec leader at the time they were not dominant. I think he is the best leader to introduce the Chinampa tile improvement. Pacal II used to have a magnificent hat in Civilization V that was trimmed down for performance issues. I guess Firaxis could be tempted to take revenge and give us the most incredible hat they could imagine. For the Pass 12, Napoléon claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire, Maria Theresa was Holy Roman Empress which also claimed it, while Julius Caesar manipulated the Senate that ended up killing the idea of the Roman Republic and replacing it with an Empire. Thus explaining the theme.

Of course, this is not what I would want for the 18 new leaders. But if they took the same spirit of what they gave us for Leader Pass #1, I think we would have something close to this.
 
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Instead of telling what I would like as new leaders for the Leader Pass #2, I want to “predict” what it could be. I think this is a nice game to play. So here are a lot of assumptions!

When we look out the 19 new Leaders of the Pass, most of them (14) are from the Base Game, and then 1 of them are from each DLC: Civilizations & Scenarios (C&S, as Nader Shah / Persia), Rise & Fall (R&F, as Sejong / Korea), Gathering Storm (GS, as Sundiata Keita / Mali) and New Frontier (NF, as Theodora / Byzantium). The only exception being Suleiman the Magnificent, as we all know their bias toward gigantic hats.

The Leader Pass introduced no new Civilizations, had a 2 male for 1 female ratio, was teamed by 3 around a theme. It was free if the Anthology or all DLC had been bought before. Being free was a way to sell the Anthology to players. Being free this time has no leverage. So they have two choices:
  • Paid DLC: Therefore they should have 2 leaders out of 3 available for the base game, as it would be quite frustrating to pay for something that you couldn’t play as because you didn’t have all the DLC. Plus, it needs extra effort and care, as the players would be less tolerant of something they paid.
  • Free to all DLC: Therefore they are more free on who to add to the game, since players cannot complain about not enjoying everything about free content.

They are also not afraid to reuse tired old memes, and tried overly popular characters such as Trade-Elizabeth (wybiiatawe), Onion-Suleiman, or Ramses, neither of adding new characters never seen before like Nzinga Mbande, Sundiata Keita or Ludwig II for example. I will take the route of the paid DLC one, which is the most limitative option to pick.

So here a guess:



A lot of the picks are underwhelming. I added new rules I wanted to follow: Target overrepresentation. 6 Civilizations are going to have those rules. The big 3 (America, China and India) would have 3 leaders + persona while the other 3 (England, France and Russia) would have 2 leaders + persona. Dual leaders like Kublai and Eleanor don’t count. That is why Washington, Nur Jahan, “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi, Napoléon, Catherine the Great, and “Maritime” Peter have been added. Sure, some of them are overrated. I wish I was knowledgeable about American history to add a female leader. Napoléon is also a very dividing leader: some absolutely love him, and some wish to not see him again.

It was a challenge to pick which one of the DLC civilizations to include. I settled with the Khmer (C&S), the Netherlands (R&F), the Incan (GS), and Ethiopia (NFP). The Mayan were my Joker, just like Suleiman was an added bonus in the Leader Pass #1, so I could complete the “Empires of the New World” pass.

Some of the picks might be quite… weird. Due to the limitation, there was no other choice possible. Tomyris is the last female leader of the base game without a Persona, while Kongo is the only African vanilla civilization. That is why they both have a Persona. Nonetheless, Tomyris being both a Great General and a Queen, she is suitable for more: there is a reason Cyrus wanted her as his wife. Mvemba A Nzinga could also benefit from having a real ability: currently, there is no real reason to not play as Mbande.

William the Silent is William of Orange. The franchise has been very inconsistent about his name (William or Willem van Oranje), so I wanted to be consistent with that by spelling it differently again. Pedro II is quite disliked as some of us call him Dom Satan. This older and broken persona would be a nice and friendly one. The Shadows of Asia pass is quite… obscure. Neang Neak (or Queen Soma) is credited as the first monarch of Cambodia. Nothing is really known about her or his husband, so you could rightfully say this is a Dido scenario again. Nur Jahan is one of the only Mughal Empress to have and use power, to the point of having coins with her image. Her addition is less than a stretch, and allows to both represent the Mughal period of India, and have a female leader. “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi seems offtopic, until we realize we have “Rough Rider” Teddy. I guess this is better than “Nuclear Warlord” Gandhi. Peter the Great has a famous painting of him in Armor with a cape, perfect for a Persona. As the founder of St. Petersburg and funding the Russia Navy, this is a way to give him a new focus to compensate for his underwhelming ability. King Ezana is famous for his conversion, but as a King of Aksum and builder of Stele / Obelisk, there is quite a lot to work with. Acamapichtli is an Aztec leader at the time they were not dominant. I think he is the best leader to introduce the Chinampa tile improvement. Pacal II used to have a magnificent hat in Civilization V that was trimmed down for performance issues. I guess Firaxis could be tempted to take revenge and give us the most incredible hat they could imagine. For the Pass 12, Napoléon claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire, Maria Theresa was Holy Roman Empress which also claimed it, while Julius Caesar manipulated the Senate that ended up killing the idea of the Roman Republic and replacing it with an Empire. Thus explaining the theme.

Of course, this is not what I would want for the 18 new leaders. But if they took the same spirit of what they gave us for Leader Pass #1, I think we would have something close to this.
I like the idea behind your game, but I hope your list never comes true, it sounds horrible, – especially 'Ambulance Corps' Gandhi and 'Virago' Tomyris
 
The Shadows of Asia pass is quite… obscure. Neang Neak (or Queen Soma) is credited as the first monarch of Cambodia. Nothing is really known about her or his husband, so you could rightfully say this is a Dido scenario again. Nur Jahan is one of the only Mughal Empress to have and use power, to the point of having coins with her image. Her addition is less than a stretch, and allows to both represent the Mughal period of India, and have a female leader. “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi seems offtopic, until we realize we have “Rough Rider” Teddy. I guess this is better than “Nuclear Warlord” Gandhi.
Might I suggest instead of "Ambulance Corps" Gandhi, we do a "Zen" Hojo Tokimune, like I presented? I've always felt that Hojo had a lot of bonuses going on and could easily be split like Teddy. "Zen" Hojo could focus on his life after the failed Mongol invasions where he was instrumental in the spread of Zen Buddhism throughout Japan by building his Encampments, Theater Squares, and Holy Sites faster, while the original "Shikken" Hojo could focus on the coastal combat strength bonuses, and the hurricane immunity.
Peter the Great has a famous painting of him in Armor with a cape, perfect for a Persona. As the founder of St. Petersburg and funding the Russia Navy, this is a way to give him a new focus to compensate for his underwhelming ability.
I never thought of a Peter persona, until now. I like this idea, though I'm not sure how much it would synergize with the rest of Russia's ability. Not that original Peter did anyway though.
 
Instead of telling what I would like as new leaders for the Leader Pass #2, I want to “predict” what it could be. I think this is a nice game to play. So here are a lot of assumptions!

When we look out the 19 new Leaders of the Pass, most of them (14) are from the Base Game, and then 1 of them are from each DLC: Civilizations & Scenarios (C&S, as Nader Shah / Persia), Rise & Fall (R&F, as Sejong / Korea), Gathering Storm (GS, as Sundiata Keita / Mali) and New Frontier (NF, as Theodora / Byzantium). The only exception being Suleiman the Magnificent, as we all know their bias toward gigantic hats.

The Leader Pass introduced no new Civilizations, had a 2 male for 1 female ratio, was teamed by 3 around a theme. It was free if the Anthology or all DLC had been bought before. Being free was a way to sell the Anthology to players. Being free this time has no leverage. So they have two choices:
  • Paid DLC: Therefore they should have 2 leaders out of 3 available for the base game, as it would be quite frustrating to pay for something that you couldn’t play as because you didn’t have all the DLC. Plus, it needs extra effort and care, as the players would be less tolerant of something they paid.
  • Free to all DLC: Therefore they are more free on who to add to the game, since players cannot complain about not enjoying everything about free content.

They are also not afraid to reuse tired old memes, and tried overly popular characters such as Trade-Elizabeth (wybiiatawe), Onion-Suleiman, or Ramses, neither of adding new characters never seen before like Nzinga Mbande, Sundiata Keita or Ludwig II for example. I will take the route of the paid DLC one, which is the most limitative option to pick.

So here a guess:



A lot of the picks are underwhelming. I added new rules I wanted to follow: Target overrepresentation. 6 Civilizations are going to have those rules. The big 3 (America, China and India) would have 3 leaders + persona while the other 3 (England, France and Russia) would have 2 leaders + persona. Dual leaders like Kublai and Eleanor don’t count. That is why Washington, Nur Jahan, “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi, Napoléon, Catherine the Great, and “Maritime” Peter have been added. Sure, some of them are overrated. I wish I was knowledgeable about American history to add a female leader. Napoléon is also a very dividing leader: some absolutely love him, and some wish to not see him again.

It was a challenge to pick which one of the DLC civilizations to include. I settled with the Khmer (C&S), the Netherlands (R&F), the Incan (GS), and Ethiopia (NFP). The Mayan were my Joker, just like Suleiman was an added bonus in the Leader Pass #1, so I could complete the “Empires of the New World” pass.

Some of the picks might be quite… weird. Due to the limitation, there was no other choice possible. Tomyris is the last female leader of the base game without a Persona, while Kongo is the only African vanilla civilization. That is why they both have a Persona. Nonetheless, Tomyris being both a Great General and a Queen, she is suitable for more: there is a reason Cyrus wanted her as his wife. Mvemba A Nzinga could also benefit from having a real ability: currently, there is no real reason to not play as Mbande.

William the Silent is William of Orange. The franchise has been very inconsistent about his name (William or Willem van Oranje), so I wanted to be consistent with that by spelling it differently again. Pedro II is quite disliked as some of us call him Dom Satan. This older and broken persona would be a nice and friendly one. The Shadows of Asia pass is quite… obscure. Neang Neak (or Queen Soma) is credited as the first monarch of Cambodia. Nothing is really known about her or his husband, so you could rightfully say this is a Dido scenario again. Nur Jahan is one of the only Mughal Empress to have and use power, to the point of having coins with her image. Her addition is less than a stretch, and allows to both represent the Mughal period of India, and have a female leader. “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi seems offtopic, until we realize we have “Rough Rider” Teddy. I guess this is better than “Nuclear Warlord” Gandhi. Peter the Great has a famous painting of him in Armor with a cape, perfect for a Persona. As the founder of St. Petersburg and funding the Russia Navy, this is a way to give him a new focus to compensate for his underwhelming ability. King Ezana is famous for his conversion, but as a King of Aksum and builder of Stele / Obelisk, there is quite a lot to work with. Acamapichtli is an Aztec leader at the time they were not dominant. I think he is the best leader to introduce the Chinampa tile improvement. Pacal II used to have a magnificent hat in Civilization V that was trimmed down for performance issues. I guess Firaxis could be tempted to take revenge and give us the most incredible hat they could imagine. For the Pass 12, Napoléon claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire, Maria Theresa was Holy Roman Empress which also claimed it, while Julius Caesar manipulated the Senate that ended up killing the idea of the Roman Republic and replacing it with an Empire. Thus explaining the theme.

Of course, this is not what I would want for the 18 new leaders. But if they took the same spirit of what they gave us for Leader Pass #1, I think we would have something close to this.
Pass 7 - We don't need George, how about Tommy Jefferson or JFK or MLK?
Pass 8 - I'd rather Zen Hojo than the Gandhi persona.
Pass 9 - Nice! How about Alexander Nevsky instead of one of the Russians?
Pass 10 - Amazing (chef's kiss!)
Pass 11 - same as above
Pass 12 - Napoleon? Nah, how about Phillip II Augustus or someone else for France. Maybe a Justinian (but then again we have Theodora)
 
Pass 7 - We don't need George, how about Tommy Jefferson or JFK or MLK?
I don't think America needs a new leader, but I'd rather one of these than George again. Well maybe not MLK.
Pass 9 - Nice! How about Alexander Nevsky instead of one of the Russians?
Wouldn't he lead Russia, though? Unless you mean Alexander instead of Catherine or the Peter Persona.
 
The Twitter canceling device will be activated in 5...4...3...2...1...
Well, I don't ever get on my Twitter, so I don't care. :p
He never was President of the U.S., so never officially lead, which is why I wouldn't really consider him as an option, personally.
 
Well, I don't ever get on my Twitter, so I don't care. :p
He never was President of the U.S., so never officially lead, which is why I wouldn't really consider him as an option, personally.
Gandhi is in these civ games, and yet he never officially led India. So, MLK would be a fair choice to add. Also, you wanted Evita Peron to be leader of Argentina - she never officially led.
 
I like the idea behind your game, but I hope your list never comes true, it sounds horrible, – especially 'Ambulance Corps' Gandhi and 'Virago' Tomyris

Feel free to play the game yourself. Impose yourself your own limitations, and explore the choices you can do, and the compromise you will have to do. This is a lot more fun than one can expect.

About "horrible" choices: I agree. With the limitations I imposed myself, the choices were limited. I wanted all Personas applied to Base Game leaders, and ideally 2 female leaders. Sadly, the base game doesn’t have a 1 female to 2 male ratio (1:4 instead). Out of the 20 base leaders, there are only 5 female leaders: Catherine de Medici, Cleopatra, Gorgo, Tomyris, Victoria. As we have the Magnificent, Ptolemaic and Age of Steam Personas, there remain two possible choices: Gorgo and Tomyris. I forbid myself to pick Gorgo: I don’t want to break the balance in the Sparta / Athen duality. Furthermore, a lot of people complained about Greek overrepresentation. So Tomyris was my pick. She is the “Warrior Queen”, and we currently have the “Warrior” side with a Leader ability geared toward offense. She could have another ability around the “Queen”, focused more on economy and/or Faith.

For Gandhi, as I made the choice to put India in the big 3 with America and China, it needed 3 leaders and a Persona. As I limited myself to give Persona to base game leaders, Gandhi was the only choice. Sure, the Ambulance Corps is very underwhelming, but I don’t know which unique costume he could have been wearing.

Might I suggest instead of "Ambulance Corps" Gandhi, we do a "Zen" Hojo Tokimune, like I presented? I've always felt that Hojo had a lot of bonuses going on and could easily be split like Teddy. "Zen" Hojo could focus on his life after the failed Mongol invasions where he was instrumental in the spread of Zen Buddhism throughout Japan by building his Encampments, Theater Squares, and Holy Sites faster, while the original "Shikken" Hojo could focus on the coastal combat strength bonuses, and the hurricane immunity.

I never thought of a Peter persona, until now. I like this idea, though I'm not sure how much it would synergize with the rest of Russia's ability. Not that original Peter did anyway though.

You are free to try yourself to pick whatever leaders you want. As I wrote to the previous reply, I was “forced” to pick Gandhi because of the limitations I imposed on myself. Hojo Tokimune is a good choice, but a choice I couldn’t make because of the rules I made for myself.
Hojo Tokimune has a really powerful ability, and is needlessly long. They could have shortened to something like this: “+5 Combat Strength to Naval and Land units in shallow water tiles or adjacent to Coast. +100% Production toward Encampment, Holy Site and Theater Square districts. Hurricanes deal no damage to your districts, improvements and units, and deal double to warring enemy units within your territory.” but he could clearly be split into two halves, as you said. He probably needs additional bonuses to complete, as Bull Moose enjoys Science and Culture from breathtaking tiles, while Rough Rider have some Diplomatic Favor bonuses.

Or… Hojo Tokimune could be the 19th leader, just as Julius Caesar was a free leader if Steam was linked to 2K.

About Russia, it is extremely thematic to have a leader to not align with its Civilization. The Civilization is religious with the Lavra and additional Faith from Tundra. The leaders are the complete opposite: Peter wanted to “modernize” the country, to “destroy” traditions like forbid traditional attires or create a beard tax. He wanted his country to venture into the sea, something completely new. Catherine the Great was heavily anti-Church during all her reign, and was the first vaccinated Queen and proponent of Science progress despite her entourage being quite against it. Stalin was extremely anti-Religious to the point the USA made the opposite move and made its government openly religious (in god we trust…). Having Russian leaders with abilities not aligning with the religious side of the civilization is extremely thematic.

Pass 7 - We don't need George, how about Tommy Jefferson or JFK or MLK?
Pass 8 - I'd rather Zen Hojo than the Gandhi persona.
Pass 9 - Nice! How about Alexander Nevsky instead of one of the Russians?
Pass 10 - Amazing (chef's kiss!)
Pass 11 - same as above
Pass 12 - Napoleon? Nah, how about Phillip II Augustus or someone else for France. Maybe a Justinian (but then again we have Theodora)
Pass #7: JFK? Uw... Why not Nixon? To be fair, I would love to find a female leader for America, but I couldn't find one. With a "cultural" Bull Moose, a "diplomatic" Rough Rider, and a "domination" Lincoln, the game could enjoy a scientific leader. At first, I wanted to put Franklin, which fit the "Wise men" theme. But people would say he is not a president. So I went with Washington, who could have been a dictator but didn't want to.

Pass #8: See above.

Pass #9: Well, I wanted to have a female leader. My first pick was Olga of Kiev, but due to recent event, it would be a bad taste to do it. So I settled for Catherine the Great, a much more obvious leader, sadly.

Pass #12: I picked Napoléon because he is overrated, both highly requested even if highly despised by some. This is due because France has obscure leaders. I am all for Philip II Augustus, but we have Eleanor, a contemporary. Louis XIV is kind of represented with the Magnificent persona, while Henri IV is contemporary of Catherine de Medici. That is how I end up with Napoléon, which fit the "Roman pretendor" theme. Yet, as America, France could enjoy an Scientific or a Religious leader.

About Justinian, I would love the game having couple as leader. Like Justinian & Theodora as a single leader but both appearing on the leader (you cannot pick one: you play both). Or the Trưng Sisters for Vietnam. Even for the Khmers, I would love to have Preah Thong & Neang Neak. It could help a lot to add powerful women in the game, because some consort Queen where more regnant than the actual regnant King.
 
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Gandhi is in these civ games, and yet he never officially led India. So, MLK would be a fair choice to add. Also, you wanted Evita Peron to be leader of Argentina - she never officially led.
True. However, they to me feel different because I believe they might have eventually become actual leaders of their nations if things hadn't happened, like assassination or dying of cancer. There are very few exceptions to where I'd want someone who wasn't in political power, and these two to me fit the criteria, at least more than MLK does. That being said, I wouldn't mind it if Gandhi also took a break, and we got other leaders for India.
For Gandhi, as I made the choice to put India in the big 3 with America and China, it needed 3 leaders and a Persona. As I limited myself to give Persona to base game leaders, Gandhi was the only choice. Sure, the Ambulance Corps is very underwhelming, but I don’t know which unique costume he could have been wearing.
Now I'm wondering what his playstyle would be? Would his units heal quicker outside of friendly territory, including religious units?
Hojo Tokimune has a really powerful ability, and is needlessly long. They could have shortened to something like this: “+5 Combat Strength to Naval and Land units in shallow water tiles or adjacent to Coast. +100% Production toward Encampment, Holy Site and Theater Square districts. Hurricanes deal no damage to your districts, improvements and units, and deal double to warring enemy units within your territory.” but he could clearly be split into two halves, as you said. He probably needs additional bonuses to complete, as Bull Moose enjoys Science and Culture from breathtaking tiles, while Rough Rider have some Diplomatic Favor bonuses.
Yes. My rough idea for Zen Hojo is "Encampments, Holy Sites, and Theater Squares are built in half the time. Cities gain+1 Amenity when completing these districts and each of their buildings. The original one would have a reworked "Divine Wind" which would have the other components.
About Russia, it is extremely thematic to have a leader to not align with its Civilization. The Civilization is religious with the Lavra and additional Faith from Tundra. The leaders are the complete opposite: Peter wanted to “modernize” the country, to “destroy” traditions like forbid traditional attires or create a beard tax. He wanted his country to venture into the sea, something completely new. Catherine the Great was heavily anti-Church during all her reign, and was the first vaccinated Queen and proponent of Science progress despite her entourage being quite against it. Stalin was extremely anti-Religious to the point the USA made the opposite move and made its government openly religious (in god we trust…). Having Russian leaders with abilities not aligning with the religious side of the civilization is extremely thematic.
Well, that's a good point. Russian leaders not doing what the general population of Russia wants seems to be a recurring theme. :shifty:
 
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True. However, they to me feel different because I believe they might have eventually become actual leaders of their nations if things hadn't happened, like assassination or dying of cancer. There are very few exceptions to where I'd want someone who wasn't in political power, and these two to me fit the criteria, at least more than MLK does. That being said, I wouldn't mind it if Gandhi also took a break, and we got other leaders for India.
MLK was put as the supposed vice president for Robert Kennedy, but both lost their lives too soon for us.
 
Instead of telling what I would like as new leaders for the Leader Pass #2, I want to “predict” what it could be. I think this is a nice game to play. So here are a lot of assumptions!

When we look out the 19 new Leaders of the Pass, most of them (14) are from the Base Game, and then 1 of them are from each DLC: Civilizations & Scenarios (C&S, as Nader Shah / Persia), Rise & Fall (R&F, as Sejong / Korea), Gathering Storm (GS, as Sundiata Keita / Mali) and New Frontier (NF, as Theodora / Byzantium). The only exception being Suleiman the Magnificent, as we all know their bias toward gigantic hats.

The Leader Pass introduced no new Civilizations, had a 2 male for 1 female ratio, was teamed by 3 around a theme. It was free if the Anthology or all DLC had been bought before. Being free was a way to sell the Anthology to players. Being free this time has no leverage. So they have two choices:
  • Paid DLC: Therefore they should have 2 leaders out of 3 available for the base game, as it would be quite frustrating to pay for something that you couldn’t play as because you didn’t have all the DLC. Plus, it needs extra effort and care, as the players would be less tolerant of something they paid.
  • Free to all DLC: Therefore they are more free on who to add to the game, since players cannot complain about not enjoying everything about free content.

They are also not afraid to reuse tired old memes, and tried overly popular characters such as Trade-Elizabeth (wybiiatawe), Onion-Suleiman, or Ramses, neither of adding new characters never seen before like Nzinga Mbande, Sundiata Keita or Ludwig II for example. I will take the route of the paid DLC one, which is the most limitative option to pick.

So here a guess:



A lot of the picks are underwhelming. I added new rules I wanted to follow: Target overrepresentation. 6 Civilizations are going to have those rules. The big 3 (America, China and India) would have 3 leaders + persona while the other 3 (England, France and Russia) would have 2 leaders + persona. Dual leaders like Kublai and Eleanor don’t count. That is why Washington, Nur Jahan, “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi, Napoléon, Catherine the Great, and “Maritime” Peter have been added. Sure, some of them are overrated. I wish I was knowledgeable about American history to add a female leader. Napoléon is also a very dividing leader: some absolutely love him, and some wish to not see him again.

It was a challenge to pick which one of the DLC civilizations to include. I settled with the Khmer (C&S), the Netherlands (R&F), the Incan (GS), and Ethiopia (NFP). The Mayan were my Joker, just like Suleiman was an added bonus in the Leader Pass #1, so I could complete the “Empires of the New World” pass.

Some of the picks might be quite… weird. Due to the limitation, there was no other choice possible. Tomyris is the last female leader of the base game without a Persona, while Kongo is the only African vanilla civilization. That is why they both have a Persona. Nonetheless, Tomyris being both a Great General and a Queen, she is suitable for more: there is a reason Cyrus wanted her as his wife. Mvemba A Nzinga could also benefit from having a real ability: currently, there is no real reason to not play as Mbande.

William the Silent is William of Orange. The franchise has been very inconsistent about his name (William or Willem van Oranje), so I wanted to be consistent with that by spelling it differently again. Pedro II is quite disliked as some of us call him Dom Satan. This older and broken persona would be a nice and friendly one. The Shadows of Asia pass is quite… obscure. Neang Neak (or Queen Soma) is credited as the first monarch of Cambodia. Nothing is really known about her or his husband, so you could rightfully say this is a Dido scenario again. Nur Jahan is one of the only Mughal Empress to have and use power, to the point of having coins with her image. Her addition is less than a stretch, and allows to both represent the Mughal period of India, and have a female leader. “Ambulance Corps” Gandhi seems offtopic, until we realize we have “Rough Rider” Teddy. I guess this is better than “Nuclear Warlord” Gandhi. Peter the Great has a famous painting of him in Armor with a cape, perfect for a Persona. As the founder of St. Petersburg and funding the Russia Navy, this is a way to give him a new focus to compensate for his underwhelming ability. King Ezana is famous for his conversion, but as a King of Aksum and builder of Stele / Obelisk, there is quite a lot to work with. Acamapichtli is an Aztec leader at the time they were not dominant. I think he is the best leader to introduce the Chinampa tile improvement. Pacal II used to have a magnificent hat in Civilization V that was trimmed down for performance issues. I guess Firaxis could be tempted to take revenge and give us the most incredible hat they could imagine. For the Pass 12, Napoléon claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire, Maria Theresa was Holy Roman Empress which also claimed it, while Julius Caesar manipulated the Senate that ended up killing the idea of the Roman Republic and replacing it with an Empire. Thus explaining the theme.

Of course, this is not what I would want for the 18 new leaders. But if they took the same spirit of what they gave us for Leader Pass #1, I think we would have something close to this.
If Pedro II were to get another persona, I'd like a version as a homeland volunteer, which comes with the unique unit "Voluntário da Pátria" and a war ability against neighboring civilizations.
 
I'd say that while MLK might be better known now, Frederick Douglass might still be the better fit for getting an African-American leader for the USA.
 
If Pedro II were to get another persona, I'd like a version as a homeland volunteer, which comes with the unique unit "Voluntário da Pátria" and a war ability against neighboring civilizations.
He did emphasize a "friendly" persona though. :p
 
What I meant was the Ayyubids aren't representative of the Arabian civilization as a whole – especially of its most important manifestation in the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates. What I would have liked was at least the possibility of the Abbasids/Umayyads being represented alongside the Ayyubids...
Fixed leaders are wrong for many reasons 1 Gandhi for example. And a type of leader produced by his times does not represent the spirit of civilization: going to war with Gandhi is ridiculous and anachronistic better chandagrupa, asoka, shah knan, Chandra bose, babur, 2 one does not change if a leader is defeated and is placed in charge of a puppet state such as petain , or quisling, it would be better to choose between various great personalities depending on the period and the choices of the game
 
As said before, creating and animating new leaders take significant resources, and represent a significant limitation on how many leaders can be in a game.

If you require a sizeable number of leaders for each civs, you limit - drastically - how many civs the game can have. Which is a just plain bad idea. A multitude of civs bring far more options and choices to the game than some hackeyed leader changing mechanic.

Games do change, but abandoning core central conceits (the immortal leader) when that would result in a drastic loss of player options (far less civs) is not just change, it's horrible change.
 
As said before, creating and animating new leaders take significant resources, and represent a significant limitation on how many leaders can be in a game.

If you require a sizeable number of leaders for each civs, you limit - drastically - how many civs the game can have. Which is a just plain bad idea. A multitude of civs bring far more options and choices to the game than some hackeyed leader changing mechanic.

Games do change, but abandoning core central conceits (the immortal leader) when that would result in a drastic loss of player options (far less civs) is not just change, it's horrible change.
Changing leaders does not mean redoing leaders removing all the animations, having said this, I recommend a review of history for you to better understand the internal and external historical dynamics and being. Less conservative open more to new ideas
 
I'm quite well versed in history, thank you very much.

I'm also somewhat versed in game design, - well enough to know no amount of history justify bad game design.
 
Fixed leaders are wrong for many reasons 1 Gandhi for example. And a type of leader produced by his times does not represent the spirit of civilization: going to war with Gandhi is ridiculous and anachronistic better chandagrupa, asoka, shah knan, Chandra bose, babur, 2 one does not change if a leader is defeated and is placed in charge of a puppet state such as petain , or quisling, it would be better to choose between various great personalities depending on the period and the choices of the game
I am on Evie's side on this argument. We shouldn't be spending a lot of money on leaders.

Message #666. I don't know if I should be happy or not.
 
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