Civ VII Post-mortem: Crafting a redemption arc

Part of what makes it so fatal is that the entire game is designed around it, like a core mechanic.
See the Era system in Civ6 was like loosely attached. If you wanted to make the most of it, you could, but you didn't have to. And it was interesting but not game breaking. Even if the point accumulation was weird.
Though you have to play ball with Civ7's system, and there's actually no game without it. So this makes it difficult to untaggle. And yes, this means play testing couldn't have fixed it.

If Civ7's system was more like Civ6's, then at least the play testing could come back and tell them to tone it down, and it would be easier to do because of the impact of that system.
 
The crazy part is that if Firaxis had not done age transitions and civ-switching, I think civ7 could have been the best of the franchise. Sure there are systems like religions and governments that need more fleshing out (expansions?) but a lot of the other mechanics like slottable resources, merchants trading resources, commanders, attribute trees, civ specific policies, are pretty great imo. And graphics are good. I think the base game is pretty solid. I find myself sad when the Antiquity Age ends because I had a good time. I don't want to change civs and skip time and jump into a new Age. I want to stay with the flow and see where the game continues with this civ.
 
The crazy part is that if Firaxis had not done age transitions and civ-switching, I think civ7 could have been the best of the franchise. Sure there are systems like religions and governments that need more fleshing out (expansions?) but a lot of the other mechanics like slottable resources, merchants trading resources, commanders, attribute trees, civ specific policies, are pretty great imo. And graphics are good. I think the base game is pretty solid. I find myself sad when the Antiquity Age ends because I had a good time. I don't want to change civs and skip time and jump into a new Age. I want to stay with the flow and see where the game continues with this civ.
I don't see this at all.

If Civ 7 didn't have age transitions and civ switching I'm not sure what there really is about the game to differentiate it from Civ 6. Sure there are some elements that seem like improvements, like commanders and scouts. Almost everything else in the game, from city states, diplomacy, religion, upgrading your settlements, feel like mostly downgrades or hardly massive upgrades. There is potential to many of the systems they introduced, for instance I think Towns is a really good idea, but ultimately these feel inconsequential and incomplete.

I honestly can't see what the selling point of Civ 7 would even be without Ages and Civ Switching, the game simply doesn't have enough else going for it right now. How would you convince someone to buy it? 'Hey, do you want Civ 6, but with most of the stuff you liked missing, but hey there are some minor tweaks that are improved, oh and it has nicer graphics.. even if you can't tell what anything is'
 
I don't see this at all.

If Civ 7 didn't have age transitions and civ switching I'm not sure what there really is about the game to differentiate it from Civ 6. Sure there are some elements that seem like improvements, like commanders and scouts. Almost everything else in the game, from city states, diplomacy, religion, upgrading your settlements, feel like mostly downgrades or hardly massive upgrades. There is potential to many of the systems they introduced, for instance I think Towns is a really good idea, but ultimately these feel inconsequential and incomplete.

I honestly can't see what the selling point of Civ 7 would even be without Ages and Civ Switching, the game simply doesn't have enough else going for it right now. How would you convince someone to buy it? 'Hey, do you want Civ 6, but with most of the stuff you liked missing, but hey there are some minor tweaks that are improved, oh and it has nicer graphics.. even if you can't tell what anything is'

I guess I don't see it that way. I think trade, resources, city-states, diplomacy, towns are all big improvements over civ6. Plus, I find the graphics to be much better than civ6. I find civ6 graphics to be too "cartoony" for my taste. So imo, if civ7 fleshed out governments, religion, legacy paths, it would be a better experience than civ6. Age transitions and civ-switching are the only parts of civ7 that I really "hate".
 
I guess I don't see it that way. I think trade, resources, city-states, diplomacy, towns are all big improvements over civ6. Plus, I find the graphics to be much better than civ6. I find civ6 graphics to be too "cartoony" for my taste. So imo, if civ7 fleshed out governments, religion, legacy paths, it would be a better experience than civ6. Age transitions and civ-switching are the only parts of civ7 that I really "hate".
There is plenty of subject matter about what differentiates Civ7 and Civ6 besides the transitions and the civ-switching. But even so, I'm not sure what is the obsession about making every sequel different.
There is plenty to work on already in terms of quality with relation to the series - refining what we have is the way to go, and not endless experimentation.
 
I don't think cities and towns are an improvement. Previously, the difference lay in the terrain and the desire to make it grow. They're just more unnecessary limitations, like the settlement limit.
 
I guess I don't see it that way. I think trade, resources, city-states, diplomacy, towns are all big improvements over civ6. Plus, I find the graphics to be much better than civ6. I find civ6 graphics to be too "cartoony" for my taste. So imo, if civ7 fleshed out governments, religion, legacy paths, it would be a better experience than civ6. Age transitions and civ-switching are the only parts of civ7 that I really "hate".
Yeah I guess it's all a matter of opinion. For almost all of those things you mention, I can see some sort of potential there but the implementation is just dull and uninspired. Just to list it:

Trade - Is there trade? You send a unit by clicking a button.. you get some resources. That isn't trading on any level as far as I can tell, it's simplified in extreme and basically meaningless
Resources - Maybe there is something interesting there, but its basically switching buffs around. I don't find it all that exciting. They have removed resource requirements for units, so resources are mostly not very impactful.
City States - Again, good potential but huge downgrade in current game. There is no city state minigame, no interaction with them once suzed.. they are bystanders.
Diplomacy - Could be good, in reality it's just 'click a button for a buff or debuff'. Its pretty meh.
Towns - The strongest potential, but I mostly just pick mining or farm or hub and forget about it. I don't think thats what they were going for.
Graphics - Yes I prefer the style, but I can't see what is happening, the UI is still bad and there is just urban sprawl making the landscape far uglier.

I'm not even sure if those things actually have potential, almost all of them for me are just straight downgrades from 6. I actually think Civ Switching is by far the most interesting aspect of the game, and I appreciate that they did something new. One of the reasons I'm so against Classic mode is because the rest of the game is flat out beneath 5 and 6 in so many aspect, it would become far more apparent how weak it is.
 
Trade - Is there trade? You send a unit by clicking a button.. you get some resources. That isn't trading on any level as far as I can tell, it's simplified in extreme and basically meaningless

What I like is that you get actual resources rather than just getting yields like in civ6. So I consider it a step up from civ6.

Resources - Maybe there is something interesting there, but its basically switching buffs around. I don't find it all that exciting. They have removed resource requirements for units, so resources are mostly not very impactful.

In civ7, each resource gives a specific bonus. You also have 3 types of resources, empire, city and bonus. And you get to pick where to put the resource. In civ6, you just have luxury resources that just give you amenities or strategic resources that are required for certain units. So I feel like civ7 resources are more interesting than civ6 resources. Also, I love that resources are not required to build units because it was often unfair in civ6 when you were playing Rome and cannot build legions because you have no iron.

City States - Again, good potential but huge downgrade in current game. There is no city state minigame, no interaction with them once suzed.. they are bystanders.

I prefer city-states in civ7 because I like how they start as independent peoples and you befriend them with influence. You can stop them from being hostile with influence. Also, you get interesting bonuses when they become your city-state and you can finally add them to your empire. I feel like they are a nice combo of the barbarian clan mode in civ6 with classic city-states. In civ6, you just send envoys and you would lose a city-state if you did not keep adding envoys to have more than other civs.

Diplomacy - Could be good, in reality it's just 'click a button for a buff or debuff'. Its pretty meh.

I like that it is not just a trade table anymore. You can make aggreements and sanctions and do espionage. In civ6, diplomacy was basically just a trade table and the AI would send you silly trades. And I like the war score mechanic. civ7 could definitely do more with diplomacy but the basics are there.

Towns - The strongest potential, but I mostly just pick mining or farm or hub and forget about it. I don't think thats what they were going for.

Yeah, I agree the town specializations need work. But I like the concept of towns. It is nice that not everything is a city now. And towns add gold so they are important for your economy. There is a question of how many towns/city you need.

Graphics - Yes I prefer the style, but I can't see what is happening, the UI is still bad and there is just urban sprawl making the landscape far uglier.

UI definitely needs work. And urban sprawl is ugly. But I like the more serious tone.
 
What I like is that you get actual resources rather than just getting yields like in civ6. So I consider it a step up from civ6.
True, but the problem is they don't really do much. Outside of camels I have never even noticed what a civ has given me, its totally inconsequential.
In civ7, each resource gives a specific bonus. You also have 3 types of resources, empire, city and bonus. And you get to pick where to put the resource. In civ6, you just have luxury resources that just give you amenities or strategic resources that are required for certain units. So I feel like civ7 resources are more interesting than civ6 resources. Also, I love that resources are not required to build units because it was often unfair in civ6 when you were playing Rome and cannot build legions because you have no iron.
Related to the above, resources are almost entirely inconsequential. They don't really have any real effect on your performance, nor do they really change how you approach the game. What was so good about resource requirements in previous games was it actually meant you needed to plan for how to get them, that might be attacking another civ, befriending them, suzeing a CS. But they meant something. Now they don't. You can pretty much ignore them
I prefer city-states in civ7 because I like how they start as independent peoples and you befriend them with influence. You can stop them from being hostile with influence. Also, you get interesting bonuses when they become your city-state and you can finally add them to your empire. I feel like they are a nice combo of the barbarian clan mode in civ6 with classic city-states. In civ6, you just send envoys and you would lose a city-state if you did not keep adding envoys to have more than other civs.
There are elements that are decent with CS in 7, but they are still less impactful than those in 6. There is little planning or changing your approach midgame because you met a certain city state, you don't compete for them.. they are just there. There is potential I think if they allow you to interact with them in more interesting ways, but its pretty shallow right now.
I like that it is not just a trade table anymore. You can make aggreements and sanctions and do espionage. In civ6, diplomacy was basically just a trade table and the AI would send you silly trades. And I like the war score mechanic. civ7 could definitely do more with diplomacy but the basics are there.
Yeah, i like the concept, but really it just comes down to clicking a button for a buff. Some cool ideas, but implementation is so weak and uninspired.

These are some reasons I am hopeful about the game, there are lots of areas where this game could be great, but its very far away right now
 
I don't see this at all.

If Civ 7 didn't have age transitions and civ switching I'm not sure what there really is about the game to differentiate it from Civ 6. Sure there are some elements that seem like improvements, like commanders and scouts. Almost everything else in the game, from city states, diplomacy, religion, upgrading your settlements, feel like mostly downgrades or hardly massive upgrades. There is potential to many of the systems they introduced, for instance I think Towns is a really good idea, but ultimately these feel inconsequential and incomplete.

I honestly can't see what the selling point of Civ 7 would even be without Ages and Civ Switching, the game simply doesn't have enough else going for it right now. How would you convince someone to buy it? 'Hey, do you want Civ 6, but with most of the stuff you liked missing, but hey there are some minor tweaks that are improved, oh and it has nicer graphics.. even if you can't tell what anything is'
They tried out leader switching first, but to them it didn't work and was less immersive in their opinions because it seems like Firaxis liked to identify with leaders, rather than civs.
As someone who likes to identify as the civ, and not the leader, I think I might have much preferred that. I wonder how many more people would have preferred leader switching to civ switching?
 
I wonder how many more people would have preferred leader switching to civ switching?

Leader switching is probably easier to rationalize since we know civs/empires change leaders in history. It would also allow players to keep the same civ which many want. And you could pick from a pool of leaders that are tied to their historical time period so the leader would always match the Age you are in.

The one downside is that it could potentially make diplomacy confusing since you would see different leaders each Age, representing the same civs. So there would not be that same avatar that the player can associate with a civ. But again, considering that nations change leaders in real life and we have no issue with a different person leading a country, I think players could get used to it.

Another issue could be that leaders don't have as many elaborate uniques as civs do. So changing leaders might not be as consequential in terms of gameplay as changing civs.
 
I don't see this at all.

If Civ 7 didn't have age transitions and civ switching I'm not sure what there really is about the game to differentiate it from Civ 6. Sure there are some elements that seem like improvements, like commanders and scouts. Almost everything else in the game, from city states, diplomacy, religion, upgrading your settlements, feel like mostly downgrades or hardly massive upgrades. There is potential to many of the systems they introduced, for instance I think Towns is a really good idea, but ultimately these feel inconsequential and incomplete.

I honestly can't see what the selling point of Civ 7 would even be without Ages and Civ Switching, the game simply doesn't have enough else going for it right now. How would you convince someone to buy it? 'Hey, do you want Civ 6, but with most of the stuff you liked missing, but hey there are some minor tweaks that are improved, oh and it has nicer graphics.. even if you can't tell what anything is'
Well, if they eliminated ages/switching and 1upt and put in a good strategic combat system they would sell like 50 millions units. And the kind of combat system wouldn't need to be new, any number of systems from 60 to 70 year old wargames would be fine.

This is just sitting out there literally waiting to be picked up from the ground. Not even low hanging fruit. Its laying on the bloody ground for anyone to pick up.
 
I've read the post and the first few replies, and felt a strong impulse to provide a different perspective on Civ 7's issues and how to address them. In particular, if we're speaking about Agency, Balance and Complexity:

I disagree about Agency and Complexity being reduced or taken away from players in the 7th installment. I agree that Balance changed towards symmetric balancing, and the consequences of it are off-putting to most players, and those players feel it very well. I also think that this change ought to be appealing to some players, but due to other issues those players don't get to notice this or can't appreciate it even if they wanted to. In further paragraphs, I'll go over Agency only in more detail, as I don't feel enough energy in myself to elaborate about Complexity as well, but I will do so eventually.

I will construct this comment by going over statements in the original post and providing my thoughts about them. I'll do this not to nitpick and not because I haven't statements of my own; but because I want to start elaborating on the common ground that was laid by the tremendous efforts of OP.

As was mentioned in the post, Agency is the capacity to take impactful actions. So let me elaborate on the capacity first. Just as in previous civ games, capacity to determine the fate of the civilization is in player's hands. To prioritize endeavors vs befriending IPs, expansion vs wonderbuilding, warfare vs trade, alliance vs neutrality - it's all there, and it defines how (or when, or even whether) you achieve your goals. And goals in this context are not just legacy paths (a bit off-topic, but I believe the devs made the wrong decision to advertise legacy paths (mostly via UI) as the primary win conditions for the age, even though achieving them only feels like winning and may actually be suboptimal for long-term game results). And surely, it's possible to go back, load the save file, re-evaluate your game and do better. Given the above, I don't think Civ 7 players lack in capacity compared to Civ 6 players.

Next, the impact. This one is more interesting. Before anything, I'd like to point out that the degree of the impact is relative, i.e. objectively the impact of a single action can only be measured against other possible actions in the game, and objectively it's unfair to compare the impact between Civ 7 and Civ 6 actions. But gaming is a subjective experience (and it's beautiful and fair that it is), so I'll address this subjectivity later in the comment.

In Civ 6, achieving certain milestones made a huge impact on player's progress and capabilities. In Civ 7, there's only a few such milestones, and they aren't as impactful (from my experience, it's certain leader attributes, traditions and choosing certain civs). However, Civ 7 is very generously rewarding players who manage to work with multiple gameplay systems towards a particular goal. Let's take a look at few examples:
  • There are so many ways to buff your combat strength, and almost all of them are available early; army commanders, city-states, certain techs and masteries, endeavors, resources, wonders, synergies between leaders and civs - and almost all of them require agency from the player to take advantage of. To name a few: settle near copies of iron and grow towards it, bring out some troops early to attack nearby IP while befriending another military IP to use its suzerain bonus; level up your commander against IP to use him later against another civ; prioritize science to research bronze working and its mastery asap to have very powerful infantry before your opponent.
  • Exploration legacy path in science encourages players to use specialists to their fullest and maximize adjacency bonuses. While I think adjacencies aren't as immediately rewarding as they were in Civ 6, there's a lot of decent combinations with wonders, civ abilities and masteries to have amazing yield porn (even though the UI doesn't present it in the satisfying way it deserves). One wonder that provides spectacular yields is Notre-Dame; while it may not be obvious at first, the wonder provides a huge amount of culture during celebrations and a free celebration on top. If you managed to plant a lot of specialists while maintaining decent happiness in your empire (all of which you had agency for), you can reap a lot of yields from this wonder. There aren't many wonders that have such great effects in Civ 7, but it's definitely one of them.
  • I think a lot of players prioritize urban districts over rural districts because it feels natural to build buildings if they're available; but certain landscapes are better with improvements (like mines), and the food can be obtained from nearby towns, so farms may not be a huge priority. Once the player memorizes what improvements (including unique) are in the game and what synergies (masteries, wonders, warehouse buildings) can buff them, I think the true potential of yield porn lies in stacking those rural tile bonuses, not districts and specialists. However, it's not immediately obvious, and thorough experimentation and engaging with gameplay systems is required to have a feel for it. City-states in each age provide access to a particular unique improvement, and Serpent Mound wonder provides a decent amount of science to each tile with such improvement. Unique improvements are ageless, so you can, for example, build a lot of Potkops in the antiquity and buff them using the Serpent Mound in the exploration. The wonder is available at the start of the tech tree, and you absolutely can rush it if you want to.

Overall, regarding the impact, Civ 7 prioritizes step-by-step and multi-vector planning ahead to achieve greatness; while Civ 6 has a few carefully planted low-hanging fruits across the game's progress, and each of them is tied to a particular mini-game and significantly boosts the empire's results. To name a few: Magnus chops, insane adjacency bonuses (campuses from mountains, IZs from aqueducts and dams), feudalism policy card Serfdom which grants builders extra charges. I'm not claiming it's not fun to master these, but once you do, you wouldn't want to avoid them, because the pacing starts to feel too slow without them. And consequentially, it may become too repetitive to play Civ 6 if you're playing for the win. But Civ 6 partially compensates for that with a huge amount of content it has now.

I promised that I'd get back to gaming being subjective and ways to measure impact. I think it's fair to say that for many people the impact from individual actions and accomplishments in Civ 7 is lacking compared Civ 6, and this is a major contributor to people's dissatisfaction with the game. The difference in the impact is present due to multiple reasons: symmetric game balance, unrewarding UX for accomplishments, inevitable age transitions and crises that bring everyone down. I think in the long term it would be impossible for Civ 7 to win this battle, but at the same time, with more content and polish the game has the chance to become appreciated on its own, not as a Civ 6 successor. In my opinion, Civ 7 has zero chance to become the game that Civ 6 players knew they'd wanted, but it has non-zero chance to become the game we didn't knew we'd wanted. Just not in the state it's currently in.

And last but not least, I want to mention another thing related to how agency feels in the game. It has already been mentioned a few times, and I completely agree with it. I think it's important for players to feel that they are in the lead of their civilization(s) and that the game is interacting with them directly, breaking the 4th wall to a degree. At least once you feel it, it's hard to go back from this feeling, especially if you only have AI opponents. Because of that, I think it's unfortunate that opposing leaders don't look at players in the diplomacy screen, like they did in Civ 6 (instead, in Civ 7 they look to the side, where the player's leader stands). While the player can adjust to this and it's not the end of the world, this design is another contributing factor to Civ 7 feeling like a downgrade, at least while getting used to it.
 
I highly suggest a Leader switch mechanic that was not mandatory and based itself in gameplay.

So if you want you can play Caesar until the end of time, but it comes with penalties, like he is best for Ancient empires and simply loses strategic potency over time.

I suggest you could improve your Leader over time with traits to make them more experienced. Or you can have the agency to switch them for a Leader who may be better suited for your current goals or current era.

I even think this would pair well with Government mechanics, where for example, certain Government types are better for retaining the same Leader (Monarchy) and some for switching Leaders (Democracy).
 
I highly suggest a Leader switch mechanic that was not mandatory and based itself in gameplay.

So if you want you can play Caesar until the end of time, but it comes with penalties, like he is best for Ancient empires and simply loses strategic potency over time.

I suggest you could improve your Leader over time with traits to make them more experienced. Or you can have the agency to switch them for a Leader who may be better suited for your current goals or current era.

I even think this would pair well with Government mechanics, where for example, certain Government types are better for retaining the same Leader (Monarchy) and some for switching Leaders (Democracy).
This is essentially what I was thinking. I'd also make leader change dependent on if you switch governments, not necessarily progressing to a new era.
Giving each leader a unique military unit, unique infrastructure, unique civilian unit, or a unique civic/tradition would also show what era they would shine in.
 
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I guess I don't see it that way. I think trade, resources, city-states, diplomacy, towns are all big improvements over civ6. Plus, I find the graphics to be much better than civ6. I find civ6 graphics to be too "cartoony" for my taste. So imo, if civ7 fleshed out governments, religion, legacy paths, it would be a better experience than civ6. Age transitions and civ-switching are the only parts of civ7 that I really "hate".
I think a lot of them are decent improvements.

I think precious little of it would be new. And I think that is what people are getting at. Changed, new, and the same. That's the design philosophy. It's hard to get back to doing new once you stop doing it. Then you're suddenly following a 50 / 50 model.
 
I think a lot of them are decent improvements.

I think precious little of it would be new. And I think that is what people are getting at. Changed, new, and the same. That's the design philosophy. It's hard to get back to doing new once you stop doing it. Then you're suddenly following a 50 / 50 model.

You can add something brand new in civ7, just not civ-switching. I am sure the devs could find something else to be the big new feature.
 
The crazy part is that if Firaxis had not done age transitions and civ-switching, I think civ7 could have been the best of the franchise. Sure there are systems like religions and governments that need more fleshing out (expansions?) but a lot of the other mechanics like slottable resources, merchants trading resources, commanders, attribute trees, civ specific policies, are pretty great imo. And graphics are good. I think the base game is pretty solid. I find myself sad when the Antiquity Age ends because I had a good time. I don't want to change civs and skip time and jump into a new Age. I want to stay with the flow and see where the game continues with this civ.

Agree

I would also like to go back to diplomatic trading, but all those things would be relatively easy to add/fix

Going full age transitions and civ switching was a MASSIVE mistake
 
Also, there's certainly a large number of UI people relative to the UI we received, don't you think?
If the UI rumors are true, then maybe they've rehired a UI team who have been working on a total rehaul for a comeback patch. You'd want maximum impact so your major design changes and UI overhaul and a marketing push. Probably coinciding with more DLC announced.
 
You can add something brand new in civ7, just not civ-switching. I am sure the devs could find something else to be the big new feature.

Going full age transitions and civ switching was a MASSIVE mistake
The best proposal I recently heard would have been to add in a "cultures" system. Where a new era triggers, in a similar vein to a golden age, a small set of policy options and maybe a unit or two or maybe a shift in building style.

"The Egyptians have adopted Venetian Culture"
"The Assyrians have adopted Dutch Culture"

It just FEELS civ-y.
 
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