Here is the save:
Civ2 in Civ3
- Thread starter Elear
- Start date
1762AD:
20th kills rifle and LB on way to Nineeh.
2nd kills spear and razes town for 1 slave.
19th kills rifle in Akkad.
18th kills rifle in Nippur.
10th starts on another camp.
Galleon from France and Persia come up the slot pat Knossos. I have not bombarded them with artillery as I want them to reach Samaria. There they can be sunk.
The three elite DD's sink Persian galleons near Samaria, no landing. Will send the jet to Samaria next turn as it can do little in Mendes now.
IBT:
Looks like the spice is connected as I see some WLTKD msgs. Xerxes is caught trying to steal tech, rats that is our money he is spending. Well it would soon be ours.
1764AD:
bombers kill a rifle.
10th clears camp.
9th kills LB.
19th kills lb and razes Akkad for 2 slaves. It kills a rifle and a pike.
Custer kills pike in Nippur, 7th IOW.
18th kills a rifle and a pike there and razes for 2 slaves.
20th gets a wandering spear.
1766AD:
Re-base bombers to Samaria.
Bomber sink Persian boat.
Use the lone missile to sink Bab frigate by Eretria.
21st kills pike in Eulbar.
20th kills lb.
17th kills rifle in Babylon. Yeah a tank army finally arrives.
5th kills 2 pikes there.
4th kills last pike in Babylon and razed it for 3 slaves.
13th starts on a camp.
Bombers sink Fr and Persian boats.
2nd kills LB.
21st kills unit in Eulbar and razes it.
20th kills 3 in Nineveh and captures it. I go with the capture as the culture borders are slowing units down.
14th kills pike.
18th kills rifle, 2 pikes and a drafted rifle in some city and razed it for 3 slaves.
1770AD:
Start on Recycle. It was either that or Genetics. May as well get recycle to slap in the towns with factories.
Pollution in capitol.
Bombers sink a boat found by the jet.
16th kills 2 and razes Lzibia.
16th kills LB.
5th kills one.
8th kills rifle, 2 pikes and a draft.
2nd kills 2 spears and razes Zariqum.
4th kills LB and razes Uruk for 3 gold and 2 slaves.
21st kill unit in Shururp.
Gordium sees a lot of units enter it. I guess they are concerned about an invasion. They send out a boat that we sunk with bombers. 1772 should have been listed above this point some place.
In fact bombers get a Persian and a French boat near Gordium.
1774AD:
All those units turn around and leave Gordium.
20th kills barbs and bust the camp.
19th kill rifle in the field.
14th kills rifle in Larsa.
2nd kills 2 units and razed town for 1 slave.
MA bust camp.
1776AD:
Independence for Babylon as they are now gone.
We will have a road connecting end to end in a couple of turns and then can rail it.
Started armies for Samaria to ship over to Persia or France.
1778AD:
Switch army to UN for giggles.
Bombers sink two Persian galleons.
Uprising is way over on a mountain next to the landing point I use for the army shipments. You can see the camp in the fog. It is just behind the MI.
DD sinks Persian boat.
Research set to zero.
Persia has neither oil or coal and France does not even have Salt.
20th kills rifle and LB on way to Nineeh.
2nd kills spear and razes town for 1 slave.
19th kills rifle in Akkad.
18th kills rifle in Nippur.
10th starts on another camp.
Galleon from France and Persia come up the slot pat Knossos. I have not bombarded them with artillery as I want them to reach Samaria. There they can be sunk.
The three elite DD's sink Persian galleons near Samaria, no landing. Will send the jet to Samaria next turn as it can do little in Mendes now.
IBT:
Looks like the spice is connected as I see some WLTKD msgs. Xerxes is caught trying to steal tech, rats that is our money he is spending. Well it would soon be ours.
1764AD:
bombers kill a rifle.
10th clears camp.
9th kills LB.
19th kills lb and razes Akkad for 2 slaves. It kills a rifle and a pike.
Custer kills pike in Nippur, 7th IOW.
18th kills a rifle and a pike there and razes for 2 slaves.
20th gets a wandering spear.
1766AD:
Re-base bombers to Samaria.
Bomber sink Persian boat.
Use the lone missile to sink Bab frigate by Eretria.
21st kills pike in Eulbar.
20th kills lb.
17th kills rifle in Babylon. Yeah a tank army finally arrives.
5th kills 2 pikes there.
4th kills last pike in Babylon and razed it for 3 slaves.
13th starts on a camp.
Bombers sink Fr and Persian boats.
2nd kills LB.
21st kills unit in Eulbar and razes it.
20th kills 3 in Nineveh and captures it. I go with the capture as the culture borders are slowing units down.
14th kills pike.
18th kills rifle, 2 pikes and a drafted rifle in some city and razed it for 3 slaves.
1770AD:
Start on Recycle. It was either that or Genetics. May as well get recycle to slap in the towns with factories.
Pollution in capitol.
Bombers sink a boat found by the jet.
16th kills 2 and razes Lzibia.
16th kills LB.
5th kills one.
8th kills rifle, 2 pikes and a draft.
2nd kills 2 spears and razes Zariqum.
4th kills LB and razes Uruk for 3 gold and 2 slaves.
21st kill unit in Shururp.
Gordium sees a lot of units enter it. I guess they are concerned about an invasion. They send out a boat that we sunk with bombers. 1772 should have been listed above this point some place.
In fact bombers get a Persian and a French boat near Gordium.
1774AD:
All those units turn around and leave Gordium.
20th kills barbs and bust the camp.
19th kill rifle in the field.
14th kills rifle in Larsa.
2nd kills 2 units and razed town for 1 slave.
MA bust camp.
1776AD:
Independence for Babylon as they are now gone.
We will have a road connecting end to end in a couple of turns and then can rail it.
Started armies for Samaria to ship over to Persia or France.
1778AD:
Switch army to UN for giggles.
Bombers sink two Persian galleons.
Uprising is way over on a mountain next to the landing point I use for the army shipments. You can see the camp in the fog. It is just behind the MI.
DD sinks Persian boat.
Research set to zero.
Persia has neither oil or coal and France does not even have Salt.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Just a matter of mopping up now. I'm still playing in Rod02, but I'd like to get some licks in here, can you hang on with further play so I can go about finishing this off?
ThinkTank
RL Addict
It's almost over, looks like Overseer can finish this game. Good that Persia has no oil (so no planes), I think their only source was near (former) Sardis on the (former) Ottoman island.
Doing this I added 500 bpt at 100% (in 30 turns). MM-wise, it is easier, as you get a town right in one go, so you don't have to revisit towns constantly to see if the farm is "ripe" or can get another scientist. I could have saved the workers for later but on our own continent we had enough, and on the Ottoman island we constantly had some 15 Ottoman infantry wandering around, which I did not feel like fighting as they were not defending anything important, and progress was slow enough. I suppose I could have used 1 army for covering a rail crew, which I did at the end, but could have started sooner.
Doing this I added 500 bpt at 100% (in 30 turns). MM-wise, it is easier, as you get a town right in one go, so you don't have to revisit towns constantly to see if the farm is "ripe" or can get another scientist. I could have saved the workers for later but on our own continent we had enough, and on the Ottoman island we constantly had some 15 Ottoman infantry wandering around, which I did not feel like fighting as they were not defending anything important, and progress was slow enough. I suppose I could have used 1 army for covering a rail crew, which I did at the end, but could have started sooner.
Go ahead Overseer714, yours to finish at your leisure.
ThinkTank, to get 500bpt from the adding in workers would require about 166 workers, which is more than we had in total. Some of the towns would not even be able to use the pop as specialist as they did not have excess food. Some could not even feed them.
You would need about 50 towns at three each, we did not have that many places to add workers. We had 124 towns at 1520 and 140 at 1700.
Now I would agree that adding in workers to a new town can be useful, as long as the tiles are improved. That would not be the case in Ottoman or Babylon areas. Carthage was already improved.
Most of the places would have grown to the full potential during your 35 turns with no additions as they had excess food.
Normally I am no very concerned about increasing my research at that point as I intend to kill everyone. I do not even add workers in to allow cranking out a settler, all that often. Nothing wrong with, I just figure the curve of the game is going to get me to same place either way, but I want rail nets where ever I go.
Anyway I was just a bit shock to see the number of workers so low. Like most things in this game, you can play it many ways and they all work.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
For me, adding workers late is fine, as I usually have tons of slaves by then. I have no problem getting anything done because I have more than enough slaves to tie up the loose ends. Also, less workers eases unit support issues. As you say, there are many right ways to play this game.
ThinkTank
RL Addict
That is correct of course. The 500 bpt came from specialist in the farms, and maybe some 50 of these specialists came from workers. Actually, checking the 1520 and 1700 saves, in 1520 we had 33/90 workers (native/slaves), in 1700 18/57, but that included 26 additional slaves from the Ottoman campaign. This means that I added in about 74 workers into the towns.
I agree that it is not obvious at that stage of the game that increasing science output still helps a lot. But I like to have some money around for rushing things, and for that it is useful that the sci slider does not need to be so high.
Another issue, but that is independent of this particular game, is how you develop your farms in the most efficient way. What I have been doing is develop everything, let them grow, and swith the citizens to scientists. Drawback of this is that you end up with a lot of workers you do not have a need for anymore. And you only get the benefit from a farm town once it has fully grown, as you need the food in the growth phase for fast growth. I think that gradually adding workers to farms in the second half of the development phase must be an improvement. The end result is the same, but you get it faster, and also you get a gradual improvement of science, rather then a sudden step forward.
Agreed!
I would expect that adding workers in sooner is better in a game that is either a score or scientist oriented one. A HoF type effort in a std map for instance. I would probably be the last to expound on those as I don't play that style.
I tend to get into a lot of massive games, where the Map Modifier is raised to 600-700. This makes farms a good thing, but not a huge thing. Modifier of 240 for a std map Vs 650 is going to make a tech cost more than twice as much.
Not a great incentive to rush to add workers. In a game like that you never run out work, in fact you have so much it is brutal.
So to me, I would think you would want to take care about when and where to add workers. The soonest you can do it, with no big loss the better. Best to add native workers if you can to avoid nationality issue and to reduce support cost, if an issue.
Probably a moving target from game to game. A large continent, an island or a single land mass? Peaceful VC or going for conquest, so many things will have to be considered.
I tend to get into a lot of massive games, where the Map Modifier is raised to 600-700. This makes farms a good thing, but not a huge thing. Modifier of 240 for a std map Vs 650 is going to make a tech cost more than twice as much.
Not a great incentive to rush to add workers. In a game like that you never run out work, in fact you have so much it is brutal.
So to me, I would think you would want to take care about when and where to add workers. The soonest you can do it, with no big loss the better. Best to add native workers if you can to avoid nationality issue and to reduce support cost, if an issue.
Probably a moving target from game to game. A large continent, an island or a single land mass? Peaceful VC or going for conquest, so many things will have to be considered.
ThinkTank said:
VMXA said:
I don't know the particulars of your guys games and we're probably getting off track, but I'll harzard to say it's better to add workers in later in a score or scientist game. In a scientist game, if a city isn't really too far out *and* you have the cash (so it works better with higher level (thought maybe not Sid) games with larger map sizes and max opponents, since you can make vaults of gpt), it's faster to buy a courthouse, a library, and a university, and maybe a police station. I think I had a city with 4 commerce, only 1 non-corrupt, go to 6 or 8 beakers in like three turns, and it maybe got to size 2. You'll still irrigate for growth. Smaller sized maps have less gpt available from the AIs, so specialist farms probably work better in a researched based game... then again war probably comes as a bit tricker, especially if you have scientific opponents you don't want to eliminate. Not adding in workers allows you to have more to irrigate, rail, plant, and chop forests for improvements and more/faster units potentially for more territory for more scientists.
In a score-based (histographic game), you'll only want scientist farms until you get to Replacable Parts. Then you'll want civil engineer farms for markets, aqueducts, hospitals, and maybe mass transit systems, courthouses, police stations and possibly even a temple or cathedral. Even a market, aqueduct (as agricultural), and a hospital combined cost a lot of shields, so forestry probably will help more than adding in workers, as you only get points from happy or content citizens. On top of this, you probably won't have much cash to rush building, as you'll probably want them for units/armies, and you might want more commerce going to research to get to Ecology than cash for a bit. So, you'll want all the shields and growth you can get, and forests and irrigated rails everywhere can help with this.
Or at least that's my take.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Well, it is finished. Official Conquest victory date 1800 AD, final score 5515. After getting everything in place, it was pretty easy. I think I could have moved a little faster, but not much.
Here is my turn-log:
The final save, just before destroying France:
Here is the minimap just after taking their last cities:
And the victory screen:
Great job, everyone!
Here is my turn-log:
Spoiler :
The final save, just before destroying France:
Here is the minimap just after taking their last cities:
And the victory screen:
Great job, everyone!
Looking good. I was wondering about the game, some funny things cropped up. I sometime hate the Internet as it pops culture borders and I have to go around and reset citizen in most of the farms.
Where we close to Domination, not sure, but I suspect not. Many of the expansions would not add to the domination as they would be over tiles we already had. I think we were in the 40's.
Where we close to Domination, not sure, but I suspect not. Many of the expansions would not add to the domination as they would be over tiles we already had. I think we were in the 40's.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Actually, we were pretty close to Domination at the end. The percentage of land was 51% before the Internet, 58% after. When I finished the game, it was 63%. The gain in territory was mostly coastal tiles.
I see you held a lot of towns in the Persian land and some of the French, so you could have abandon them or not even captured them, in a pinch.
We had 5 on the Ottoman land and 5 on the Babylon land, but 20 on the last continent, counting the 2 island towns. So you were in no real danger of Domination, unless you wanted. 63 still leave a lot of tiles left.
Anyway good job. You may want to post the final save for any of the original players, if they stop by. Any that you have should do for them. I would think they would just want to see what the map looked like with all the fog gone.
We had 5 on the Ottoman land and 5 on the Babylon land, but 20 on the last continent, counting the 2 island towns. So you were in no real danger of Domination, unless you wanted. 63 still leave a lot of tiles left.
Anyway good job. You may want to post the final save for any of the original players, if they stop by. Any that you have should do for them. I would think they would just want to see what the map looked like with all the fog gone.
ThinkTank
RL Addict
Good finish. Always amazed at the force and speed of modern armour!
Yup, the big thing is that MA armies take a lot less damage and hence can get back in action sooner compared to cav armies. Often can go on to the next town without healing. Add that cavs are shaky against infantry in cities and MA armies can handle them.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Yeah, I damn near lost 2 Cav armies to regular Infantry, and even took an MA army down to 5hp against a veteran Infantry. Talk about a bad RnG! This wasn't a bad idea, I'd do it again.
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