Civ4 Realism Mod (Extended Gameplay and tweaks)

[AlmightyOrange]

Hmm, are you loading the mod before the savegames? Do you have some other files in your CustomAssets directory?

yes I am loading the mod up first but it still says i need to load it anyway when i open the saved game and gives me the option to restart and load the mod, but that comes up with errors.....

Ido have other files in the custom assests folder (is that whats screwing it up???)

 

[kaeau]

first for all, its a good mod, and it starts making more sense then original civ4 gameplay in my opinion.
i didnt read all the post before, but i ll add my thoughts to the sheet here.

- what i find a lack is the speed, at which the space race is coming by. it almost gives me no chance to fight wars with tanks, infantery, battleships, etc, like the WW II in our history. technologies are researched so fast at this stage of the game, that a long lasting confilict almost never happens.

- unit upgrading: i would like this to be cheap. real cheap. because in my games, i still use archers, for example, as defence in the cities, for sure along with modern defenders like infantery. at least, these archers can hinder the enemy to invade the city for a turn, so they still have a purpose. so, for realism and gameplay reasons, i would lower the upgrading costs dramatically, so i have the financial possibility to upgrade my units. in no army nowadays archers are present. with some balancing it should be possible to do it in a way, where upgrading to the best units is expansive, but upgrading to a level below the last technology units is cheap.

- yes, and add some aspects to religions, as discussed often before..

greetings
ka
www.3dtowns.at

 

[thescaryworker]

everythings great , but I can't load any save file with that mod.

Anyone know how to fix this?

 

[Unspeakable Horror]

yes I am loading the mod up first but it still says i need to load it anyway when i open the saved game and gives me the option to restart and load the mod, but that comes up with errors.....

Ido have other files in the custom assests folder (is that whats screwing it up???)

Try loading the mod BEFORE loading the game, DON´T load the game, wait for it to ask you about the mod and then load, there might be a bug somewhere.

Depending on what other files you are using it might cause conflicts, check if the ones on your CustomAssets are the same as in the mod, if they are remove them and try loading the savegame. If that doesn´t help, remove all of them and then add one by one if you want them back.

Also if your game has cache folder somewhere delete everything inside of it.

 

[Youri]

Instead of loading the game, it is also possible to load your save game directly from windows explorer.

Go to \My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Saves\single and just double click on your save file.

It will automatically start the game with the correct mod loaded (assuming you did not update the mod during a game).

 

[evirus]

im nearly done with a terra game on the new release of your mod... no real big problems(the cities all defualted to building a gunsmith when i got the tech for it, that was annoying) well.... i WAS nearly done with it....... the friggen game crashed when i came back to it after taking a shower.... one more turn you know

 

[JakeCourtney]

Hopefully ICBMs will be made more powerful in the next version. How is the current version playtesting going?

 

[Narcio]

Roads and rails in Civ have always been something that bothered me a little bit.

There always comes a time in the game when you have too many workers to know what to do with them all so you end up paving roads over every square you own. (At least this always happens to me.) Later, when you get the techs for rails, the same thing happens.

I would like there to be some incentive for players to not put down both roads or rails over every tile quite so quickly. And by incentive, I really probably mean punishment. The most obvious ways I can think of to do this would simply be: make it cost x gold per road you build, and y gold per rail you build (maybe on the order of 2, 5, 10 or 20 gold.) With this you'd still probably end up putting those tiles on every square, since its just a one time fee you have to pay, but at least it might slow it down. The other way would be to make the players pay a maintenance per turn for each road / rail you place. That might end up being too costly, but maybe something along the lines of 1 gold per 2-5 rails (and something similar, but lower, for roads) would be a big enough incentive for players not to do that. This would have to be balanced and play tested out. Also, some techs could slowly reduce the cost over time. So when you first get roads, perhaps they will be quite expensive to maintain, but as your civilization grows, you can have lots of roads. In the end game you'd probably have roads over all of your land. Perhaps at this point rails still have a substantial enough cost to make you think twice before just sprinkling down rails everywhere.

Afterall, these improvements all need to be maintained in reality. Roads have to be repaved, plowed, cleaned etc. Rails require locomotives on top of the same sort of long term maintanence that roads require.

Another little side idea I've had is the concept of a canal. Its bothered me for a long time that you can never build canals in Civ. If implemented, canals would just be land tiles which allow naval units to pass through. Of course, to prevent the same sort of thing that I mention with roads / rails, I would make an extremely large monetary cost for building a canal, plus relatively high tech level (around modern age, or perhaps just before.) I would probably make it take workers a long time to build a canal plus something like a cost of around 1000s of gold to build a canal.

I'm not sure on the specifics, but I'd welcome ideas on this, and if you guys think something like this would be a good idea for a realism mod.

 

[Narcio]

BTW, I like what you've done so far with this mod.

I like the idea of producible resources. Now, instead of tech dumping to nations that are enemies to your enemies, you can resource dump. This seems much more realistic and fun. For example, England might give muskets to various native american tribes that were at war with the French (or vica-versa), rather than giving them all of the information and ability to make their own muskets. Now, those tribes can temporarily build units with muskets at the whim of the country supplying them.

I could see something similar being implemented for even more units, earlier and later in history. I could also see something like 2 sets of units for each unit present in the original game. Let me clarify: if someone is trading muskets to you, but you don't have the techs to actually make them yourself, you get a weaker version, say -1 strength. This would represent that you're probably not getting the best weapons, you're getting the older weapons that the country selling them to you doesn't want anymore. It would also represent the fact that your society might not clearly understand the appropriate tactics that you should be using with the particular weapon etc etc. The second unit would of course be the regular unit: the one in the original game. If you have the proper techs and aren't just trading for some rusty old guns, you get the full strength unit.

Maybe this is too complicated, but it sounds really cool to me, nonetheless.

 

[Narcio]

On a side note, I don't like the concept of tech trading in Civ very much. I don't think you should be able to simply give a tech to a country. In reality, exposure to the concept of a technology doesn't instantly give your society all of its benefits. Mere exposure to technologies doesn't mean that your society can adapt to, and integrate them instantly. Some might say that buildings in your cities represent this development, but I still don't think thats good enough.

I think the concept of "tech trading" should be more of a passive process that occurs whenever you have contact with another civilization with a tech that you don't have. For example, if you have contact with another civilization with a tech you don't have, you should maybe get a 5 or 10 percent decrease in the tech's cost. This represents the fact that even though the other civilization has the tech, your people still need time to integrate it for themselves. If you have an open border with that country, it goes to reason that there are many people going back and forth between your countries, so the people from the other country will bring that technology with them. In game this might mean a greater reduction in cost compared to just having contact. This could be cumulative with others around you. If EVERYONE around you had a tech, and you had lots of contact with them, it wouldn't take your people long to develop that tech themselves. This might also mean that very small nations might still keep up a little closer in tech to the bigger nations. Poorer nations tend to be good sources for labour, so foreign investment modernizes them far quicker than how they would be on their own.

Again, lots of balancing would be required. This might also not be practical in terms of game play, I don't know. Many factors could modify the amount of benefit you get but I would suggest the main ones being: contact with the nation (you don't get any benefit until you at least have contact with the nation), civics, open borders, and distance (perhaps for simplicity just between your two capitals.)

Under civics, free market would encourage tech flow as you freely allow your businesses to do what they please, and accept foreign investment, etc. Mercantilism might discourage it, as well as reducing the bonus your neighbours get from techs you have.

Open borders obviously allow people to flow between your two countries, and with them those citizens will slowly bring the corresponding technologies.

Distance obviously slows the flow of ideas as fewer people tend to migrate and or trade: You do the most trade (in material goods and ideas) with those you are closest to.

I think in reality technology flowed more like above than by actually 'trading'. I would personally eliminate the current tech trading, period. Whether you might want to allow both 'passive' tech trading as I've outlined on top of the old style 'trading' or just implementing passive trading is of course up to you. With the introduction of producible resources like muskets etc, you can now trade the resources instead of the technologies and it makes a lot more sense in a historical perspective.

 

[mayonaise]

I have absolutely no problem with every tile on the map being paved and filled with railroads... in fact i think its pretty realistic...

 

[Narcio]

This is a common misconception. Germany had all the oil it needed. It was just spread out and within easy reach of allied bombers. Germany had plans to take the north sea oil, and the oil in the cacauses. The oil in north africa and the middle east was well out of allied bomber range, and could produce much faster since it didnt have to worry about all the precautions that are takin due to bombing.

Countries like belgium, and poland, who had no oil of thier own, only trade agreements and stock piles, didnt build tanks at all. They built horsedrawn carraiges, and armoured cars. Which is why germany rolled right over them.

Germanys production, even after 1943 and the defeat at stalingrad, and the movement of the 8th airforce to britian, increased almost 50% every year until the wars end. Even when the 8th airforces B17s were dropping 100,000 tons of bombs a day on every target they could find in germany, thier production increased. The entire strategic bombing effort of the 8th airforce, while putting on a pretty show, and eliminating germanys airforce, was completely ineffective at putting a stop to such an industrialized nation.

Socialism was a major reason thier industry was so effective. The government had control over all contruction, public works projects, military production, resource movement, and operational planning. It was very organized and very effective.

If you flat out just dont have oil, you cant build factories, you cant fuel tanks and planes, you cant produce plastics, you cant smelt ore effectively, oil is, for lack of a better phrase, the most important resource on earth. He who controls the oil controls the universe.

Tell the poles, the chechs, the belgians, the algerians, the libyians that you can build tanks, ships, and planes without oil....theyll show you pictures of horsecarts dragging thier wounded away from the onslaught of panzers that just rolled over them.
QUOTE]

I suggest you read over your material a little more, this is one article I just found on short notice in regards to some of your claims:

http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/WW2.html

The Polish army had built and designed some of their own tanks that were quite effective. It was more a matter of numbers and the stages in modernization that Poland was in, coupled with the fact that Russia and Germany simultaneously attacked Poland that caused the German panzer to roll over them, as you say.

This above article says Poland had about 180 tanks at the onset of the German advance. Poland's airforce was 420 aircraft compared to Germany's 2000 that they used. Though they were highly outnumbered, they did still indeed have tanks and aircraft. I'm not sure whether or not Poland actually had her own supplies of oil. If what you say is true, and Poland didn't, the fact that she still built tanks and aircraft would suggest that you are incorrect about a country not being able to build such devices with no supply of their own.

Also, what you imply about the Czechs is inaccurate. Here is a quote from this site:

http://users.swing.be/tanks.edito/edito/3403.html

"The workhorse of the German Panzerwaffe at the start of the war was neither the Panzer III nor the Panzer IV, but the Czech tanks. The Panzer 35 (t) and the Panzer 38 (t) made up one quarter of the total strength in tanks in 1940-41."

Thats a hell of a lot of Czech tanks that the Germans used in their army.

 

[JakeCourtney]

Would it be possible maybe when the SDK comes out to include unit trading in the diplomacy screen. ICBM and Spies should be the next update. By the way where the heck is the Offical Patch? Is anyone else willing to help with this mod in the future, maybe anyone will 3d modeling skills.

 

[Lord_all_Mighty]

An idea for your mod that you could implement once you have all of your others complete. Would it be at all possible to simulate disease in the game? As it stands now, Health is the only thing tjat relates to it and I am sure some don't find that satisfactory. What I was thinking is that the health meter is retained, but for every point of unhealthiness above the city's health, in addition to the current penalties, there would be a chance that disease would break out and kill a portion of your population, growing as the unhealthiness meter grows larger.

I noticed that you have a feature that simulates natural disaster, if an idea like this has been implemented, I apologize.

 

[jaynus]

Hey guys!! Sorry, I've been cranking the mod lately and not respond, but I've been watching the posts! 0.7 is almost ready, it should be good to go by monday morning.

Anyways, now down to it! I love the discussion thats been going on, I've been reading it all very carefully and taking notes along the way Im glad the playtesting has been going overall good, and that everyone is responding well to the changes im making. The next version has more tweaks (of course), but also some of the bigger changes we've all been discussing here. You'll just have to wait and see what I got done this weekend! You would hate to see my working directories, I have 3 copies of civ running multiple sets of python code AND more backup directories

Anyways, down to brass tackles here:

ANYONE HAVING SAVED GAME LOADING ISSUES
Heres the deal. There are some bugs with mod loading, customAssets, and saved games. Here are my recommendations:

#1. If your running another mod in customAssets besides mine, let me know what it is. If some are common, I will include them.

#2. some mods dont mix well. We all edit the same files, and my mod specifically is a major overhaul of nearly every single XML file there is. So, first things first; If your getting errors, backup your customAssets folder, and then delete it (dont worry, civ4 will re-create it empty).

#3. Next, if that doesnt work, delete your Civ4 Cache folder.

#4. NEXT, if that doesnt work, again make sure you have no other mods in customAssets If you are using the 'Load mod' option every single time you load the game, edit your Civ4 ini file (My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\CivilizationIV.ini). Replace this line:
Mod = 0
with this line:
Mod = Mods\Realism

if *NONE* of the above works, post here and I we can get together and work it out here, on aim, or via email.


Next up, answers!

To ICBM lovers everywhere - Major nuke havock coming with the next version! YAR!

Lord_all_Mighty - I've been watching the disease thread in the main forum since it first started; I liked the idea and plan on implementing it, but Im trying to keep my plate not-to-full, and have it filed for "when i have time to copy and paste alot" work. Basically, like everyone has said, its a modification to a new religion. Add the religion, make its bonus's negatives, etc; The problem comes in on ridding it, building modifications, and abolishing it with units. This is all custom python code I need to do, so I havn't implemented anything for it yet.

JakeCourtney - I will look into it and see if I need to wait for the SDK for it or not


Narcio & Krafweerk - Im glad you guys are around haha. Historical debates on everything im doing is a good thing. I get a headache from crunching dates and detailed history (history channel ftw), just let me know what the verdict is okay? :goodjob: Narcio, I have some modifications to the civics simulating cross-border technological/cultural influences with the free market civics etc. As for the tech trading, I *totally* agree. I usually play with it off tbh, until I can dink with it.


Thanks for all the great input guys!! After the next version release, we need to get into more detailed simantics of gameplay!

 

[Saarud]

Narcio I totally agree with you both when it comes to roads and what you say about techs. A support cost for roads and railroads would be the best solution, however I'm not sure the AI could handle it.

I've been thinking alot about trading techs and I usually just like jaynus play with the no-trading-tech option on. I think another game called Hearts of Iron 2 has this much better covered. In that game you just trade the blueprint for the tech, you still have to research it at sometime but at a much cheaper price. Perhaps something similiar could be done in Civ4?

 

[Youri]

The way I see it... roads can be made with simple stuff that's everywhere, so it should be possible to build roads everywhere. Railroad on the other hand, requires iron, so with the introduction of expendable recources, it's possible to limit the production.

Jaynus - I'm currently playing a 0.5 game and I find that the industrial and the modern age are still way too fast. I barely had rifleman and grenadiers and then I had to upgrade them already to infantry and machineguns.

 

[Lightzy]

I was with you up to about update 0.3

after that, I dunno, looks like you're adding stuff just to add it.

Changing the religions around could very well be a sore point for religious people (not me, but still), and for those of us not of a religious bent, it can alter the game strategy too much and create preferred religions based on game balance, which I think is exactly one of the things they smartly avoided when creating civ4.

Also, I'm not sure I got this right, but when you write about uploading muskets to a ship and sending it to another place for trade, do you mean we have to do it manually?
If so, what happens when you have 20 such 'trade' items?
Some things are definitely better off abstracted.
Correct me if I got it wrong, yes?

As for natural disasters and finite resources though, I'm definitely with you on this one, as well as making all techs slower after reaching the medievil period (the game seems to positively sprint ahead from there and you hardly get to play in those periods).

Also, natural disasters and finite resources are things I'm pretty sure the AI could actually handle..

 

[SlayerofDeitys]

First off I really don't think he is adding things haphazardly just for the hell of it. Anything that has been implemented that turns out not to work can simply be tweaked or removed. I personally don't agree with not being able to raze cities but I am playing the game that way and deciding whether or not it actually makes sense and works well (just for the record I don't raze cities very often, however I like to have the option just in case).

Religion is a sore point with me and here's why. The designers IMHO were a bunch of *******. If you read the manual they actually have a page note on how they don't want to offend anyone and so the ******* ***** didn't add any advantages or disadvantages to one religion over another. I have been over this with people many times about looking at it from a business perspective and not wanting to lose money. While I can understand that point of view I don't agree with it. So since Jaynus isn't doing this for money but to make the game better if some little zealot doesn't like the way his religion is portrayed then don't play the ******* thing. Sorry, like I said it was a sore point for me.

 

[thescaryworker]

I agreewith Lightzy. It would be nice to play the modern era even slower than it already is. Techs are (in RL) researched faster, but thats why they made the turns shorter in later eras. At about 80%, you should be researching techs in about 10-20 turns through the game, if all the techs will be researched by turn 1125. Mayby more natural disasters in the industrial & modern era, if you put that in