Civ4 to Civ3

[mystikmind2005]

I love the Call to Power 2. Yes the AI sucks but go to Aployton site, download the greated MOD\Patch witch makes the game really great. Graphically a bit hard to go back wards to, but game play is great.

No placing workers in tiles for food, coins or shields. No workers to develop the tiles, you use Power Works, like infrustructure, plus so many units, and techs to research. Different play style as well.

I love Civ 4 BtS, didn't like Civ 4 vanila so went back to Call to Power 2. Lost my cd now, and glad Bts came out. Hoping to find anthour copy of Call to Power 2.

A good lesson why you should always make backup disks, not that i do it either - too lazy and the fact that i have the orriginal disk in hand, there is a kindof 'apathy' that nothing will happen to it. And i didn't even learn my lesson after my civ2 disk got dammaged,,, have i made backups for anything else after that happened? No!

Edit: Ah wait, i remember now, i tried using backup disks before - i wanted to keep all my originals safely boxed away and just use the backup disks but i found the backup disks very unreliable indeed, half of them simply refused to run at all so i gave up.

 

[King Flevance]

Can't see how King Flav missed correcting this

Actually, I never used the cycle arrows in 3 either. I always prefered the domestic advisor sceen. I am pretty sure Civ 4 didn't have this ability until one of the expansions. But can't be positive and dont want to load up vanilla to see. I have that screen back and I am happy.

 

[mystikmind2005]

I saw that Apolyton website, it has some good stuff!

Then i noticed smac alien crossfire for sale, clicked on it, link gone! Looked on Ebay and saw it for sale there - cheapest price was $90.00 bucks!! Thats pretty dumb, obviously if i was going to spend that much money on a game i would go and buy a new one in the shop!! Then there was smac + crossfire in one for sale $56.00 but i already have smac and $56.00 is still way to close to the price of new games in the shop.

 

[Desert-Fox]

When I first played civ3, it seemed me awesome but after played civ4 for a while it was annoying because :

* 50 turn research to get first tech.
* AI moves his units into my territory when we have no RoP.
* Attack/Defense value, I do not like it. Pikemen for example were good in defending overall but when you want to kick a knight unit then you cannot because knight defense was 2 but pikeman offense was 1.
* Civ3 was too much of REX in early time and after that too much corruption in far away cities. If thy don't REX thy will be dead.

 

[T.A JONES]

Actually, I never used the cycle arrows in 3 either. I always prefered the domestic advisor sceen. I am pretty sure Civ 4 didn't have this ability until one of the expansions. But can't be positive and dont want to load up vanilla to see. I have that screen back and I am happy.

Ya the domestic adiver menu is much more streamlined in civ3 but really I'm not seeing a difference using the cycle arrow on the city screen when it comes to avoiding a tedious ritual.

Instances I gave were the < > is best suited was Gov change and lose of a luxury. If you don't make the changes nation wide multi city's will cease to produce a return the following turn.
This sum in the course of 540 turns adds to a significant amount, especially as I mentioned, when you patched the human exploit holes making strict adherence to cost saving more a practical measure and a valuable asset to game play

With your way (based on examples shown) its much different as this can make a lot excess clicking on each city especially y on real sized simulation epics (game boards with more city's) Exiting and repeating the process down the list takes way to much time and runs the risk of you neglecting your finances here and there as result. Again as I stated, not a big deal when you have a few invisible and invincible army units that can take place of a 200 unit support charge

SO really I wonder whats the dif between having these arrows on the city screen or the domestic adv menu. Once you activate the cycling its motion has movements cut drastically so the difference is only one addition click after mass changes have been made just so you can see the new cash/shield tally in the Domestic adviser menu

ARMY PATCH: In this mod aka Buric-like patch, army's where made with one unit. This makes sense in straight terms as a unit is a group of in itself. To represent the greater chance in battle the 'units' would exp when resources are invested to organize these 'Great warlord' lead battalions, the life bar is extended to higher degree.
Now we are breaking a massive game play altering glitch where AI would not attack a land transport (army) so artys could be stacked with them. Also AI would not wait to fill a 3 or 4, the level the human would.

Now army's at equal and more effective you saw a great increase in AI effectiveness in battle. They could now bust up deadlock on massive maps where many civ's have over 50 cities and troop supply steer wars to stalemate
Once a AI civ got into a another civs front line city defenses He could heal his units and creaet a zone of control perimeter that slowed the counter strke plus advance the offensive much easyier.

All of sudden this simple change compounded into huge benefits to overall game play. Games becoming more unpredictable. A Civ who's forces wheres depleted could revitalize if they lucked out with great battle leadership. A few AI army's spawning could increase the % of a 'turn of the tide' .
This is not a small thing. From the start of the series you could usually always predict the point of AI decline .
Now by way of a few minor adjustments to the BIC one became more enthralled by a stronger feeling of needing to be more involved. Civ3 always enjoyed this aspect over civ4 due in part by fact In civ3 you don't need spy's to see AI vs AI war reports, but now issues away from home were making you think before you made a move to ally or attack another nation

ON the flip side You can imagine the unfairness when civ3 HOFers, many who helped play test or design civ4, used the old army cheesiness to make a name for themselves as master "strategists' here at Civfan. What a joke.

This is why we discredit guys like Sulla who cushy'ed up in the office with civ4 staff after half the civ3 makers had gone home. (left, like the other half eventually did) They though it was a good idea to do away with an editor, something which was frowned upon by them as a way cheating in their elite HOF ranks . How ironic lol.

BAck to real strategy, The best thing about this change is it takes only a few clicks in the "Conquests" editor. A 10 year old with no mod experience could do this without needing to download from the net in accordance to a special set of file structures
Its my opinion that with the combined ease and necessity of these patches there is no relevance to anyone criticizing civ3 based on mistakes the Pro designer made when a fool could correct them thanks to years of innovation by insightful programmers like Embyodead who volenteer their skills when Civ4 failed to meet their standards. These guys refused to choose the way of arcade high score obsessive. Nothing wrong with those who do till they get on these vs threads and realize they've been the fool.

Its the same as If choose to play Civ4 pre patched and went on a knocking areas to an audience who have many epic long ago refined them
Yet you don't hear me ripping those flaws on comparison threads. I would only look dumb like They do to thousands of Civ3 players who read this

 

[King Flevance]

Man I hope armies come back into civ. Sounds like they are playing with the idea in CIv Rev. Perhaps in 5 we may see a new army mechanic.

* AI moves his units into my territory when we have no RoP.

I think this is a problem in Civ 4 maybe. I think they should be able to, but I think being able to 'block' people out of your territory should be an early civic. (Possibly an ability for barbarism.) Civ 4 seems to be about flexing your military might instead of using it to me.

 

[Smidlee]

Man I hope armies come back into civ. Sounds like they are playing with the idea in CIv Rev. Perhaps in 5 we may see a new army mechanic.

Again armies are a mixed blessing. In Civ Rev you can have unlimited amount of armies thus armies basically becomes the normal units. Again armies heavily favors the human player since I use nothing but armies after I get a few cities started. The AI often have a single unit (tanks,planes and ships) to attack my grouped armies late in the game. This in turn give my armies easy experience so I can take their cities even faster.

P.S About the "Army patch" (not much of a patch) it is very simple since all you have to do is change the army from carrying 3 units to one and then increase the army unit hit points. The Civ3 editor is very good at making very simple changes like this one.
Another example you could easily changes all ships transport capacity to 100 (the max) and ship would acts like they do in Civ Rev.

 

[T.A JONES]

When I first played civ3, it seemed me awesome but after played civ4 for a while it was annoying because :
* AI moves his units into my territory when we have no RoP.

What I didn't like in civ4 was being able to keep out AI from the border..even when they dwarfed my size and wanted the same prize I separated them from. I like game thats real and keeps me involved with more facets of empire managment. THis 'magical wall' is like valium making you numb ande more susceptible to onset of the other autopilot charteristics that eventually leads to continual click 'endturn' coma.

Now all I do is throw em a bone once an while as I wait at my leisure till IM ready to force way onto that same nation that holds the resource's we mutually covet.


IN civ3 they walk through your land 100 tanks in hand as say "do something tough guy. Who the hell wanna die?"
If you got balls you tell em to leave and if your stronger they listen. If like in the civ4 scenario I describe, they are twice you number and size, they wipe you out on the way to their intended enemy. Simple.
Im sorry if it makes you uneasy but thats life, eat or be eaten. Civ4 solution was a mess made for MP stabilty. Sharing a Buddha doll(+5) shouldn't make you feel safe from their expansion ambitions . It dosn't keep you from attacking does it?

Using the plain closed civilian (worker) in civ3 you can walk past any border without triggered the get out message. Disguised as a man of international business you can view all the AI ongoings This is real spying not arcade style ninja bs
Its because of these realistic freedoms you can tell where these AI tanks crossing your border are headed and if looks like a good idea to join em, or oppose the nations movement onto your intrests.

Of course they may be going straight for you but their realtions are documeted and might give you clues. In realty elemet of surpise is most desired so let them them have it even if we must go without. A human has a brain, a better advantage, meaning much more tricks an thus deserving of the massive penalty to his economy by way of rep if hes reduced doing the same RP rape.
If a human does this once the other 20 civs will cut off deals giving him worthless surplus inventory. Hardly worth it for him unless like CIv4 theres only 6 other civs on the board lol

Yes the loose border system is how you have fun and expand on maps with empires that have more then 15 cities. Keepin up a good attidudes by way of payin civs cash or maing deals ensures your spies/workers have a lenthgy stay as theri is a greater chance your 'CIA' lol get booted if the Civ becomes annoyed or mad at you.

You walk one armed unit into their borders you set off the trip alarm like it would if a US tank would cruising on my Canadian highway. Next turn they say "get out" and tell your business men to piss off to. There goes all your intel on where troops dwell, who's using what technology and how its fairing.
Don't you realize its sandbox approaches like this that bring you into the game and are essential when you take away exploits (Army) thus let you play levels of dificulty that are less handicapped for AI (unreal) on you?

On a decent level like monarch, exploit patch and on huge maps, being able to detect when a Civs army has lost large potions or how many strong units they still carry is vital to your interests? This is real intell and guess what? It wouldn't been possible without this thing you call a flaw to game play

No Its not a flawless system (they could have refined it not cut it) but its not a safety net that makes you feel secure in the big ocean of large empires viewing for the same resources and land you desire, ether.
Your best bet was to lock down the border and pay the miltary salarys if you really were so annoyed. .

When the AI is weak and they intrude you kick their ass out. You think its a hassle when you have to repeat this the next turn but enjoy hearing when a great leader dies across the globe or the many other annoyances that come with civ4 on any decent sized map?

Ive seen AI workers come help me build transportation routes to their nation I figure my advisor allows this as it saves me resources and is a benefit to trade.
Fact is being able to travel all borders without committing 20 turn RNP agreements or when they aren't available yet is a great reward and added realism compard to the magic shield put in civ4 and enforced with over rated and unlreal influence on things such as shared religion or your pledge in allience agaist a civ so far away you both will never make it their play. (yes its easy to manipulate once you get aquinted with diplo holes)

IM not critizing you but again inexperience shows you opinions as invalid. You just never realized the depth and amount of improvments CIv3 has over civ4 before you walked out the Tacticians door and into the safe confines of the arcade room of civ4

 

[T.A JONES]

P.S About the "Army patch" (not much of a patch) it is very simple since all you have to do is change the army from carrying 3 units to one and then increase the army unit hit points. The Civ3 editor is very good at making very simple changes like this one.
Another example you could easily changes all ships transport capacity to 100 (the max) and ship would acts like they do in Civ Rev.

Amen brother! Well a patch is a term for small solution to something greater so the army patch fits the patch discript to a 'T'
But don't you agree (dont know if you read inbetween before my spell ed lol Ya I admit, My 1st drafts are always rushed up n hard to peice together) its makes the game drastically better?. Before I would just lower the ratio of army's to citys before I discover the Middle age mod where the patch was first implimented and distributed to thousands. AFter that adjusted the Bic of all other mods like Balancer Reloaded, Rhyes, Rise n Rule or whatever. (Not many play vannila conquests at this day n age )

Still thats only one part of the greater 'unoffical patch' You need to see that to understand why the civ3 club has not dwindled in numbers like majority games that get sequeled, tri-queled or quadrup-queled upon. Ya if civ5 contines the downward trend civ3 will still be strong lol

Its much better when all other fixes are added (pollution patch corruption patch for example) ontop the unit roster add ons, increases in cultural diversifty, even the spaceship patch! (requires differnt exotic metals and resources to build each part making late game hunt of these rare resources que wars whereever they are discovered.
THis patch is fantasic as it ALso forces you to consider a strong military upkeep always incase you need to barge in to take what you ain't got to build a lead in the space race or anotehr alternative knock out the competing civ's programs while you drive for the point or cultural win

Bottom line the patches make civ3.5 ..More suspence, more choices, more strategy that the civ4 players must go without.

Add in all the easyier to read pedia script, greater performance on real sized maps and improved graphics over civ4 by way of updated modleing programs and terrain artists and I can't see how anyone plays anything but civ3 unless they are unkowing of the patch (mass numbers) or have played evey mod a gazillion time (2 or 3 guys mybe)

 

[Crowqueen]

Re: the Biology debate - the global population has only ballooned since ~1945 because of cheap mass-produced food. The human population, like many populations, exponentially increased round about that time and in common with many population norms will level off (I believe) somewhere around 10 billion once all that surplus is used up. Therefore Biology is an accurate time to start drastically increasing growth and actually, given reality, is underpowered in the game.

 

[Desert-Fox]

What I didn't like in civ4 was being able to keep out AI from the border..even when they dwarfed my size and wanted the same prize I separated them from. I like game thats real and keeps me involved with more facets of empire managment. THis 'magical wall' is like valium making you numb ande more susceptible to onset of the other autopilot charteristics that eventually leads to continual click 'endturn' coma...

In real life for example if Mexico sends his army into US without any license then US government takes it as hostility. As I remember from civ3 I asked AI that he must leave his soldiers from my territory(usually they were settlers with some military) and they were gone but it was downward spiral in our relations because they did it again and again... they usually didn't want to give up. And when you did the same then again AI attitude towards you went down. So I didn't like the system at all. Now you also have the possibility to go through without open borders, just declare war and go. Maybe the open borders system can be expanded as right of passage for one side(demand).

It would be less problem when AI really cares about your attitude towards him/her but it seems to me that it doesn't matter at all, they may declare war on you 4 times, ask 5 tributes and still think that you may be happy. So each of such thing like violating border rules are advantage for AI but disadvantage for you.

PS : I didn't like the RoP rape too, it is just an exploit not a strategy. I remember posts where you just surrounded every AI city with your military and then took the whole opponent in one turn.

 

[King Flevance]

In real life for example if Mexico sends his army into US without any license then US government takes it as hostility.

And on the other hand if we drop 10m soldiers off on kenyas shore and say "We're walking to France, deal with it." What are they gonna do? Probably not much other than "ignore this disrespectful act this time" and talk trash on America. WIth war decalration now kicking hostile units out, the RoP rape deal has a pretty good kink in it. All you gotta do is add in that if you are ejected (by request) of the other civ you are unable to re-enter their borders for X turns (based on game speed).

Also, I am not sure about this but I think the computer does apply the same modifiers to you. It does in hotseat. If I look at your foreign advisor while playing a hotseat game with me you may see that I am annoyed at someone because they have a different religion.

 

[Smidlee]

I really don't care what is real or not after playing civ over a decade (civ1 -3) with the AI continuely ignoring my borders I'm very happy with the change in civ4. It's got very annoying to continue to tell the AI to stay out over and over. In civ 2 I had to go back often and resign my city workers back on the spot where the AI unit was sitting.
That's the same with "whack a mole" pollution. Over the years it got very old and really didn't add to the game. I'm happy it was finally removed.

 

[King Flevance]

I don't care about the realism either, but alot of people like it on these forums. So I will grab it and throw it in every once in a while. But I also think this should be thrown in for strategic reasons. (If say attached to barbarism.) If it were attached to barbarism, it would make you not only be wary of exiting barbarism, but you may also come back to barbarism at some point. I have always thought that Barbarism, Paganism, Tribalism, etc. should all offer you something although not much due to the fact they are the starting civics. As of right now it is a lie to say that the game offers you a choice of 25 civic because 5 of them are equal to nothing.

But anyways, let me get back on topic. With RoP rape fixed and the ability to put in a time limit of when another civ is able to enter your borders after 'pushing' them out, I don't see a reason this can't come back in. If you don't want your neighbor coming in uninvited either open borders or declare war, or block him off early and settle as much as possible while in barbarism. Right now IMO the human is allowed to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[T.A JONES]

Sorry for the rushed typing of the attached document. Its nice to have a coffee an jot down my complete thoughts on this great game that has taking a good portion of my 'free time' whcih byway saved me thousands in distraction expenses! lol Mybe even spared me a bad relations or to ; ) But Ya, latly working agaist time constrains Ive been forced to edit my ideas and opinions untill a more convient time permits..most the time till just later in the night, not later in the week.

SO ya just want you guys to I know I realize the importance of Due consideration with regards to good spelling and proper prose when writing a Paper of this lengh. I can understand this may be why most's posts are short in nature as editing is not fun but talkin and playin civ is!
For me I think its the amount of hidden layers of strategy the average player is unaware of that gives me the fuel to share the privilaged knowledge of those who dug deeper into the editer not dispair, when 'offical last patch' still left exploit hindered game play.

I may want to come back to lift this 'work in progress' note at later time so I'll proceed to air this in their raw state but I won't hesitate to make corrections if I don't come home to late.
Thanks for you understandin and patience in this matter

In real life for example if Mexico sends his army into US without any license then US government takes it as hostility.

What most forget mybe cause its been a while is the AI only intrudes when they are heading to war or making trade routes.

We can both agree the civ3 system allows more realistic and greater freedoms if the players choose to avoid the HOF ream and repeat guide.
They did it because they were encouraged by a ongoing 'beat the best reamer's reams' contest. Sadly besides making the best' civ3 players bitter playtesters by civ4 it made lesser 'civfanatics' in the sence they watered down end result for 'hands on' strategy and an the actaul Civ expience (10 citys civ?) compared with what the term used to entail in the series

Lets dig deep with this one example.
In all seriousness this is a game and what game can cover a complete simulation while still being fun to play? With this case I mean a set of 100% realistic diplo negotiotions or Civ behavior to Border threats

The Key to coming the closest to acheving a comprimise is to impliment open ended areas for entertaining and realistic concepts to develop from. SAdly this also makes ways for players to go the other way, forcing them to use higher handicaps for challenges which compound the cheeze even more till it stacks up to Mt formage proprtions! SO best solution was civ'3 letting it be up to a player to choose how far into this realism world he wants.
This is why the Civ3 player has a 'easy to use' editer and a wide sandbox to play in while civ4 the game tested by world class reamers with the '1st to conquer Multi player' ambition and influences of giant Parent company to control more youth,.... rolls on autopilot past tiny mini version maps while magic sheilds and red out options guide you into a "end turn' com' .
Go bigger and things fall apart for gobs of consumers. This is proven with a tech support rap sheet double the size of civ3 and in only half same time!. Also Important to note, Civ'4 numbers in modding are still greatly behind, even when their make up represents the current influx 's of players who can't play the mod due to patch conflcts or performace issues!

How did things go so wrong? An absence of voice for the greater community untill it was to late. Now civ3's stubbern mod resistance to a civ4 general 'better version acceptance ' takeover speaks volumes

SO Thats the most imortant thing to realize when understanding this hotly contested CIv3 vs Civ4 debate. THe most vocal civ3 critics choose to play the arcade way, finding a unreal weakenss and repeating it so they could brag about beaing SID or better be called to CIv4 testing sessions based on their Civ hall of fame board dominance.

Most civ3 upgrades to performance and gameplay have been around for only a few years. Its to late for these people that are hoplessly jaded by now to ever take the find the army patch or that turns that took 5 minutes now take 5 seconds with their updated 'civ4 small map suited' computers

So to topic:
I said being able to cross borders for more conviential spying during anytime of the game.(AI vs AI war reports) is worth the cost of a few extra pop up delay.
Really You could have just made a border with more troops like USA should do with Mexico if it wern't so expensive. LIke real life in Civ3, it would cost maintence but if it saves you the grief so be it.

Civ'3 free access for plain clothed workers to move about without RP is a portal to more historical simulation as early tribes would have done this aswell not wait for "spy" to be invented . AI adheres to this aswell as majority of border trips they send workers but troops are seen only when a world event is happening. Followin these is key to land expansion in ways im sure you can imagine (hit em when they ain't home, ambush, allie.. etc) I admitted the syatem wasn't perfect but it does give the massive edge to gameplay involvment and realism to civ3

Think of all the other intel you can gather. From AI loses in AI vs AI war to army strengh in numbers and unit makeup. Comes to stoe bought qualty mods with 1000 units done on modern rendering machine, its fun to just see the Avero Aero bombing and not being the target

Thats just some realism and invlolvement thats impossable to recreate in civ4 .Add in 18 civ's on a map majority each with 40 or more cities and you see how entreched one becomes with worker spy reports. Add in the "space race patch" and its even more vital to watch world events

But All this info is gone If you place one miltary unit in a nation with where you league of spys reside. If you observed AI attidude and took care of diplo relations like you should Your "workers could have been there for 300 turns but next trun after any '1 atck' unit crosses the line, The gig is up and hightened security makes it time to get your ass out of their country (by way of them or your phoney CIA cover excuse that up to you )


that this border sytem gives without hot broads in black leather. A bunch a hot ninjas in catsuits would stop tanks in their tracks


But Hey, I didn't come on to say civ4 is garbage for being so unreal. No I mearly defend the system being called down for a minor annyance at best. " Having to repeatidy banish a nuisence civ for you border".

So PLease understand why I fail to see whats wrong with this milli second hassle based on civ4 spec rigs, if it also gives a stonger AI the freedom to take what he righfully has built up to aqquire.
RP or not, if you don't want him there but are afraid to ask them to leave then he obviously holds the power. In real life US wouldn't need a RP to take Venezuela's oil. WHat they need is POWER and INFLUENCE. Thats exactly what AI civs have when they decalre war if you intrude in their plans


In civ4 a same scenario of life or death for their economy has AI controlled US sit dormant all because Mexico as a human has the same religion mybe a few deals? If USA your tryin to seel off a real big civ from a prize your not ready to take for yourself then Mybe you both have an enemy thats to far away to you any harm. Thats the key if their weak(like Mex) they will leave. ONe extra click per turn thats you cost for this freedom

CAll it a Mexico miscommincation and faulty GPS. If you let them stay and they are weaker mybe its cause you wanted them, even encouraged them to take on another nation as with your freedom of international 'eyes ' this allows at point duting the game, you will know if their operations are mutually benificial
Bonus, you while not opening showin cooperation (sim of real) and avoiding a commitment of twenty turn where you can't attack( realgame)

Whats more flip the equation and if USA wanted to take out Chavez.:

The stronger country(AI as USA) walks into the weaker state inbetween the Oil and Chavez (Human Mexico) avoids bloodshed beacuse of its size but roots into the target and rids the nation of his rule. Now AI has a vassel state(vassel patch) with little corruption and Best NO WEAKER NATION LIKE YOURSELF COULD PREVENT THAT ON BASIS OF RELIGION(cathlic) or other weak influences compared to the prize at stake, by not allowing a right of passage.

Space race patch (Creds: Ancient Mediterianen Mod and Anno Domini mod )

The "spacerace patch" which makes resources and exotic metals as needed requirments in the manufacture of space parts. For this example it creates more importance for a 20 turn commitment free system of observation. aka the non deportation alarm triggering "worker spy"

You'll need to be able to see when a Civ is amassing an army to steal what resource is vital to their late game space race intrests . ONce you target them a threat its vital to be able to launch a contingency effort agaist them in as fast and powerful way you can ,
Remember One can't wait for the remainder of an RP agreement to expire in all situaions. ONtop, RP rape means all future alliances are harder to come by and this action depending how influcial your TOP RIVAL is, may even encourage other nations you can't afford to side to join them!

 

[Smidlee]

I don't care about the realism either, but alot of people like it on these forums...

I would bet it's actually no more than a hand full of people. Civilization isn't set up to offer any kind of realism especially as a war game, not even on a grand scale. Anyone who's plays war games like Heart of Irons can easily see that.
For example in almost all war games you have to deal with supply lines. Cutting off an army's supplies does more damage than fighting them head on.
(It would be dumb to send your armies across another countries border not knowing they will allow their supplies for this army to get through. In civ you can send your armies across everyone land without any concern about supplies. At least with civ4 you have to have open borders)

 

[T.A JONES]

I would bet it's actually no more than a hand full of people.

I agree
I believe realism is great way to guide new improvments to the BIC as in to justify their presence for the benifit of gameplay. A Corruption system with added jails as improvements and higher maint on previous Gov penal system infratructure isn't there to reflect just greater realism. Its main fuction is to elimate corrupiton but while also dealing with ways to finding strategic balance between higher sheild production or greater cash returns. You've added more strategic elements to the game..thus better gameplay and realism


ITs these considerations and other such as repetivness, challenge. fun, Performance, thats translated in the end can makes realism a decisive facter or not.
If it works out the change compliments the game then Its a change they should have made offical, plain and simple.
Better balance on top of great historical approach or 'added realism' is great. Lets hear you guys say any differant and explain why this is so for a CIv game. .

This is the situation with the civ3 unofficial patches and more then a "handful" of players are into these. To me its just crowns a golden capstone to civ, strategy's great pyramid of wonder in the PC game world . Even if its nothing more signifigant to improved gameplay then an example like say civ3's civipedia. Here this one is easier to link and info digest so moders compliments its success with a wide array of thickly expanded historicaly informative volumes
Some models like the '3rd xpak' type expanded like 'Balancer Reloaded' r have full articles for over 1000 entrys and thats just units and resources!
More real dosn't mean all serious sim and more "fun" dosn't have to mean kiddie arcade ether. Civ3 can be both but civ4 is leaning more to a 'nether' collapse' by the time CIv5 brings us a 2nd xpak

We are talkin about a game thats core is based on a real historical context and geniune principles practiced in the 'real world' are carried over in majorty of areas for both games. Dosn't hurt to feel like you actually running an empire , not chillin map with a bitty 100 city count coated with romper room amusments like bunches of bannana basketcases.... Wait , its coming...Here it is.. Nice! lol

What would you rather have the plain clothes cross civillian worker spy Civ3's border system supports or the ninja spy which translates to unclear reports of AI vs AI and erects the Civ4 saftey (sleeper) wall enforced by overpowered and insignifigant postive influences in diplo transactions to keep threats behind expansion bars.

My examples of civ3 evolution like Army, corruption and defualt core structure like the borders and trade systems, illistrate realism more benifical to the game in more then one aspect.

 

[Greyhawk1]

I tried playing 4 - my comp runs it very well. Unfortunately I couldnt play it long for a number of reasons...

Firstly (biggie) - the AI contacts you every 5 minutes with "please cancel your deals with the hated x" - and I mean every 5 minutes - sometimes two or three times per turn. Its intensely annoying. It gets to the stage where I dont want to make deals with anyone else just so I can stop the damn AI from pestering me so often.

Secondly the world seems absolutely tiny. Maybe thats illusory? It just seems that way while playing. Anyone have a map size compare?

Thirdly I cant do with the 50ft tall units. It makes the world look even smaller than it actually is.

Finally, I cant do with the religion aspect at all. Thats probably no real fault of the game but it makes my teeth grind. To be fair they have tried to deal with it sensibly but I much prefer Civ 3's totally generic unnamed "religion" that doesnt get in your face so often.

Its a shame because overall the game looks absolutely gorgeous - I really wish I could get into it more

Civ 3 isnt perfect by any means but I have a less frustrating time playing that.

Oh and SMAC really is as awesome as people say...I dug it out the other day...memories!

 

[T.A JONES]

That's the same with "whack a mole" pollution. Over the years it got very old and really didn't add to the game. I'm happy it was finally removed.

NAh thats been patched

Kinda like hiring troops to patrol your border to shake of the few "deport' options that come up. LIkewise with Pollution There is a fix to prevent all this micromangment. Like realty it costs money and is done in the real world all the time.

Actually I saw you comained about both these thing here. You know its funny cause its rare that a small enough Civ to where you can feel confidence kicking him out comes along and nags you anyway. AS I said a stronger one has rights towalk on through if you won''t let him. You can quiver in the corner for all he cares. Thats gameplay and realty! lol

But back to this lil annoying civ who can't get the message. Why wouldn't you have taken him out? lol And what the heck, How do you play a game(civ4) that lets you know about everything worthless while dishin a stream of mesages that give you not a speck of real intell? (like even one AI vs AI worker/spy war reports would ). Man crap like 'a warlord's drops dead' in battle , theirs a surprise! or great leader being born!?.. we all have potential! Seriously, hows this strategy related and a need to know window?

Anyway the'pollution patch' destroys @Smidlee's smack a mole pollution complaint.

The cost of sewers and park maintence (what the patch adds and something that should have been in the game anyway ) is well worth the hassle. The other option is to keep a massive crew of workers on hand to prevent a major lose of income from toxic spills.

Using labour may save more money then a broad safty net yet you pay in population (Gov and civ size/ army support total pending) More strategy added more realism obtained, another ailment wiped out. Beats civ4 where the game ignores pollution like it has no effect on Gov resources (

Net Result: Civ'4s increased autopilot approach agaist Civ3's now less micro-intesive yet greater strategy orientated polution patch )
Look at all of civ3's patched ailments to civ4's solutions and their host of ill effects, we see easily what path veered the wrong way on the "Sid Railroad"' tracks
Civ4's shot at improvment was a failed affair while the Civ3 Editer deserves 2006 and 2007 "Game of the Year" lol

 

[Greyhawk1]

I dont think Civ 4 is on autopilot at all. If anything the complexity seems to have increased two or threefold.

I'm playing a game in Civ 4 on Chieftain and, honestly, I'm completely lost in it. I cant tell if I'm doing well, badly or what. I'm not sure if any of my cities are close to rioting since unlike Civ 3's "instant check" its not always obvious how many of the pop are unhappy.

At the moment I cant fight any wars because I'm in a constant battle with the well armed barbarians to the south. The russkies have already lost two cities to them and I nearly lost one a short time ago.

I dont seem to get the same instant feedback I have in 3 with 4. I have to zoom all the way out of the map to tell who is doing what. Often I have units in my territory from the AI I didnt know were there until they are already on there way out...

Settlers move two spaces while all your ground units only move one...this is really counter-intuitive after playing Civ 3.