Civ4 too PC?

[arcane assasin]

I recently started playing Civ4, and I find it very enjoyable, strategically challenging, and historically deep in scope. But one thing that I immediately noticed in the choice of leaders was the absence of Adolf Hitler as a choice for Germany.

Now I am definately no fan of Hitler, but I wondered why he had been left out. If it was because he was considered not important enough, then that may be understandable, but I find it hard to agree that Hitler was any less influential in the 20th century than Winston Churchill, in fact without Hitler, Churchill may have been just a footnote.

Now if Hitler was left out because of the atrocities that he committed, again this may be understandable, except for the fact that there are other leaders included in the game who have committed equally horrible acts, or worse. (Unless I'm wrong, Genghis Khan did not conquer most of Asia by riding across the land handing out flowers and candy.) And if his atrocities were considered to fresh on human history, then I would find that hard to explain to someone playing this game today in Russia, who's grandparents or great grandparents may have been murdered by Joseph Stalin.

The point is that, yes, Hitler's holocaust was a horrible crime against humanity, but the fact that it did happen only shows that it is a reality one must face in the coarse of human history, which is what this game is about. I for one would rather see a game as acclaimed as Sid Meier's Civilization be more historically correct, than politically correct.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Hmmm... interesting... I never heard anyone speak of why Hitler isn't in Civ4...

Let's see how fast this thread gets closed...

 

[CCRunner]

You may be interested in this thread

I know it's about Stalin but there's a lot of stuff about Hitler in there too, if you care to look through it all.

I believe that Hitler should be in as well but I understand why they didn't add him.

 

[Wolfshanze]

You're not allowed to say "Hitler"... the thread will get closed if you make a Hitler thread... but it's perfectly okay to talk about Stalin.

 

[arcane assasin]

If the forum censors comments just because they reference "Hitler," even if done in a intellegent, well explained way, then they might as well be added to the title of this thread... too PC. I am an adult, fully capable of forming my own opinions. In this case, that would be a negative one of Adolf Hitler. I just think it's a shame you can't play a game, even with him as your enemy in a sort of "Axis & Allies" type scenario.

 

[ZeroM]

Aren't there legal issues in some European Countries with showing any Nazi related images in any sort of non historical context, like in games and such. I seem to remember that back when I was playing Hearts of Iron.

 

[markieness]

There are laws in Germany that prohibit the use of Nazi related things in games

Hitler, Swastikas, images of high ranking Nazi people etc.

Infact there are pretty big fines that a publisher would face for every swastika, image of hitler or whatever was found in a game.

For this reason if a company wants to sell a game in Germany all this has to be left out.

Publishers do somtimes make two versions of a game, one for Germany and one for other places but its usually not worth the hassle of having two lots of assets and twice the testing.

Hope that answers your question

 

[Davor]

There are laws in Germany that prohibit the use of Nazi related things in games

Hitler, Swastikas, images of high ranking Nazi people etc.

Infact there are pretty big fines that a publisher would face for every swastika, image of hitler or whatever was found in a game.

For this reason if a company wants to sell a game in Germany all this has to be left out.

Publishers do somtimes make two versions of a game, one for Germany and one for other places but its usually not worth the hassle of having two lots of assets and twice the testing.

Hope that answers your question

Yes I believe you are correct. Also too note, for games in Germany, blood cannot be red. If it is, it can't be sold in Germany. They do have tough laws for what can be and can't be in a game.

 

[pesgores]

Call of Duty 2 (for example, lots of wargames do the same) includes the swastika in various buildings across the game.

 

[BakingTheArt]

That's in historical context. This, however, is not historical. At all.

Really, I'm not against Hitler being in the game for his atrocities, but for his horrible leadership. He built up a war based economy that could not last after the wars were over. Stalingrad was a mess of horrible leadership. I could go on.

 

[Wolfshanze]

That's in historical context. This, however, is not historical. At all.

Really, I'm not against Hitler being in the game for his atrocities, but for his horrible leadership. He built up a war based economy that could not last after the wars were over. Stalingrad was a mess of horrible leadership. I could go on.

I could say that about a lot of Leaders already included in Civ4... let's get real... his censorship from the game has absolutely nothing to do with anything but political correctness and German laws...

There are laws in Germany that prohibit the use of Nazi related things in games

Hitler, Swastikas, images of high ranking Nazi people etc.

Infact there are pretty big fines that a publisher would face for every swastika, image of hitler or whatever was found in a game.

For this reason if a company wants to sell a game in Germany all this has to be left out.

Publishers do somtimes make two versions of a game, one for Germany and one for other places but its usually not worth the hassle of having two lots of assets and twice the testing.

Hope that answers your question

Just because there is a law in one country doesn't make it right... for instance, some countries make it illegal for women to have any rights. Also, I'm pretty sure German laws only work in Germany... If Company-X were to publish a game in America they could include all the Hitlers and Swastikas they want and Germany can't do a damn thing about it... they can't fine Company-X for releasing a game in America. Funny thing... German laws only apply to Germany. The rest of the world doesn't have to hide their head in the sand about Hitler... they can actually discuss his evils without fear of prosecution. In fact... the very censorship Germany places on history is kinda fascist if you ask me. Something Hitler himself would allow.

I for one am tired of game companies fearing German law... if Germany wants to play hardball, then game companies can too... release a WWII game with Hitler and Swastikas in every country but Germany. Eventually Germans will get tired of playing Pong and Myst... maybe they'll change some laws.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I recently started playing Civ4, and I find it very enjoyable, strategically challenging, and historically deep in scope. But one thing that I immediately noticed in the choice of leaders was the absence of Adolf Hitler as a choice for Germany.

Now I am definately no fan of Hitler, but I wondered why he had been left out. If it was because he was considered not important enough, then that may be understandable, but I find it hard to agree that Hitler was any less influential in the 20th century than Winston Churchill, in fact without Hitler, Churchill may have been just a footnote.

Now if Hitler was left out because of the atrocities that he committed, again this may be understandable, except for the fact that there are other leaders included in the game who have committed equally horrible acts, or worse. (Unless I'm wrong, Genghis Khan did not conquer most of Asia by riding across the land handing out flowers and candy.) And if his atrocities were considered to fresh on human history, then I would find that hard to explain to someone playing this game today in Russia, who's grandparents or great grandparents may have been murdered by Joseph Stalin.

The point is that, yes, Hitler's holocaust was a horrible crime against humanity, but the fact that it did happen only shows that it is a reality one must face in the coarse of human history, which is what this game is about. I for one would rather see a game as acclaimed as Sid Meier's Civilization be more historically correct, than politically correct.

You want to know why Hitler wasn't included in the game? There's a simple reason.

Someone high up, a developer or publisher, determined that if the potential increase in sales due to including Hitler was Y and the potential losses for including Hitler was X, then X > Y. Whether this is due to the amount of controversy, or how this controversy is compared with, say, the inclusion of Stalin is none of my concern.

Maybe including Hitler would be enough to bring the game's rating up to M and that could hurt sales.

In reality most game companies are lead by people who make decisions not based on PC'ness or morality but profits. These people have the power to outright block ideas. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Sid Meier himself was opposed to including Hitler - that would probably be enough to prevent the inclusion.

Another fact for you, arcane assassin:

Spoiler :

Hitler threads are very very common. It looks like you are relatively new here so it is forgivable. Generally the etiquette is to search for threads before creating one. Some people will be frustrated or annoyed that you created this thread and that can easily affect their behaviour towards you. You can probably expect some more negative reactions but don't take them to heart.

 

[arcane assasin]

Thanks for the advice PieceOfMind, and know that I would never take any negativity from a public forum to heart. Yes, I am new to this site, but I didn't think typing Hitler into a search engine was the way to go. Anyway, the thread posted earlier this evening, and already has a lot of discussion, so there are people out there with thoughts on it, even though it has been discussed prior to today, but I appreciate your honest opinion.

 

[Joshua368]

Plenty of fanmade Hitler leaderheads to mod in anyway.

 

[Pluvo241]

There have been so many interesting leaders for all the Civs included in the game and only 1, 2, or 3 leaders are chosen for each one. That one or more interesting leaders weren't chosen should be of little concern. With the meager sampling of leaders the game does include, it must cover every era of our history. Of course it can only do so imperfectly, though more than adequately for a strategy game.

 

[MrPopov]

What Pluvo said. I don't think I've played an un-modded version of CIV (both III and IV) in years

 

[PreLynMax]

Play a mod. That would solve the missing Hitler issue.

 

[arcane assasin]

First I need to say I don't have a Hitler hang-up, just something I took notice of, and PieceOfMind explained perfectly that it was a marketing decision.

Second, I appreciate the small look at the possibilities of Civ4 mods. As I said b4, I am still very new to Civ4, but I can't wait to check out all of the user created material. If someone could maybe suggest a good place to start, not for game mechanics, but for game content only (new civs, leaders, buildings, units, etc...)

 

[r_rolo1]

Marketing? Nah...... Firaxis did a whole diferent PC version of Vanilla for China, with entirely diferent LH and all. No reason for acting diferent for Germany ( where you would only need to plug one more leader and some graphs ), where probably there are more civ IV buyers than in China......

But IMHO any pretension of PC ends when you have ppl like Julius Caesar ( read his own chronicles of the Gaul conquest ), Stalin, Mao or , irony of them all, Genghis Khan ( yup, the guy that burned almost all the cities that dared to not submit ASAP pour encourager les autres .... and that even thinked on killing all the chinese under his hand and transform china in horse pasture..... )

 

[Oatse]

Are there really people who can't understand why people would be offended by Adolf Hitler?

It's not because of the PC buzz word people like to throw around when it comes to issues like sexism and racism, have we forgotten why Hitler was propelled into infamy?

Should ethnic cleansing and concentration camps be added as well? Perhaps as a way to remove foreign culture from your cities?