[CIV6] Again, about units per tiles

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I have always preferred "more units per tile" on the "one unit per tile" rule, and I'm searching for possible solutions to make it more balanced and fair, in comparison with the Civ4 implementation.

In Civ4, when a stack in a tile is attacked, the best defender defends against the attacker.
But what if the defender is picked as the WORST defender in the tile?

I think that this would change enormoulsy the game play.

With the "best defender" choice (which greatly benefits the defender),stacks usually prefer to wait to be attacked, usually fortifying inside a city, sure that the enemy attacking army will kill himself when attacking.

With the "worst defender" choice (which will greatly benefit the attacker), each stack will try to attack the other as soon as possible. This will move combat away from cities and in the battlefield, also making war way more dynamic, and stacks less less dangerous.

Do you think that this could be a way?
I'm curious to try it in a Civ4 mod (I can easily mod and test it) to see how it works and mainly how the AI handles it.
 
First thought is that battles would become more fiddly to execute. For every fight we'd have to decide how strong of an attacker we wanted to "waste" on the weakest defender. At least matching up from strongest down on both sides is simple.

Attacking units would have to be allowed multiple attacks, otherwise defence would just be a question of amassing large numbers of weak units.

Existing ideas about unit counters, e.g. chariot vs axe etc., would not work if defender-selection would specifically avoid units with counters to the attacker. So that aspect of the combat system would be lost, perhaps a good thing but probably unrealistic.

I will think about this some more. I'm not sure I agree it would bring combat more out of cities and/or prevent large stacks by keeping them trimmed down with constant guerilla combat. Or if it did I'm also not sure that would be a good thing as I quite like it when AIs keep all their units together where I can easily keep track of them :)

It will be interesting to see what other people say on this as I can't believe it hasn't been tried before.

PS. seems a vague thread title - "Worst stack defender fights first" would be clearer.
 
With artillery weakening several units, people already wanted to attack first. That was first to attack wins. But that's not strategical, it's a matter of who makes the error first to move next to a stack with its moving points remaining, so it can attack you for sure, or the first to click next turn if both armies move in the same time and are separated first by two tiles. This is simply... lame, it's a matter of luck or reflexes, not thinking as it should be in a strategical game, or at least reflexes or mere luck should not determine your obliteration in a finger snap while you can invest a lot of time building your civ slowly.
 
The problem is, IUPT introduced real Tactics into Civ. It was a bad fit, because Civ is a strategic game, and so the 'tactical' ground scale and time scale were both wildly out of proportion, but it made battles much, much more interesting than the previous Stack 'Em Up 'strategy' that had prevailed. The interaction of ranged, mounted, anti-mounted, flanking, etc units made each battle a potential exercise in maneuver - tactics - firepower and far, far more interesting than battles in Civ had ever been before.

It would be Dead Wrong to give that up.
At the same time, to keep it in the game something has to be done about the huge imbalance between ground and time scale in the battles. ANY system which simply returns to the Stack will not keep the tactics, but returns to all the problems of the Monolithic Stack, no matter how you slice the definition of 'defender' and 'attacker'.

This is why, despite opposition, I keep arguing for a 'tactical layout' map or Zoom for the battles: it keeps the tactical interaction which is so much more enjoyable, but also keeps the tactical battles within a single tile and turn as is appropriate given the scale of the Game as a whole.

Making the weakest unit the defender automatically negates Any and All special attributes for units in the stack: no attacking mounted unit will ever attack a spear or pike unit if there is ANY alternative in the stack, and putting a ranged unit in the stack with its weaker combat factor is actually counterproductive - and that's counter-intuitive and counter-historical!

One possibility, if the designers and gamers do not want to Zoom to a tactical fight in detail, is to have a Tactical Decision Phase in the turn before you initiate an attack. In this phase, you could indicate how your 'stack' is deployed for battle, and this would, in turn, indicate how that battle will be fought:
To keep this simple, you would mouse over the stack, see a list of the units in the stack, and beside each unit indicate where it is "on the battle field": center front, center support, left flank front, left flank rear, right flank front, right flank rear, reserve right, left, or center. Facing, say, a force of Knights, you'd put Pikes in front, perhaps Archers or Crossbows in Rear, your own mounted in reserve. The enemy might pull a fast one, however, and put Crossbows in front, Knights in Rear, and so the 'Battle' would be your pikes being shot to pieces followed by his knights charging into your bows and being countercharged by your own mounted. The outcome might still be a victory for you, but it would be Bloody.

The actual course of the battle would be 'narrated' to you - no need, unless you are so inclined, to watch the whole thing play out. Some armies, with Great Generals in attendance or a generally higher level of Professionalism, might get extra options, and some armies' tactics would be automatic: Swiss Pikes or Swedish 'Caroleans' ALWAYS attack, the Zulu 'Horns' always envelop at high speed, etc.

Also, this would give us a way to get rid of one of the more annoying attributes of Civilization - at least to us military historians: the game makes no distinction between individual warriors/soldiers and military units.
For instance, the Roman Legion was a Unit composed at all times in its history of several differently-armed types of troops. A Zulu Impi was a Unit of troops, composed largely but not entirely of 'regiments' of well-trained, fast moving spearmen. A Longswordsman is a guy with a big sword. Anybody notice the difference?

This gets worse as the game goes on, because it makes it impossible for the game to show the real military potential of the weapons. For the most blatant example, the smooth-bore matchlock musket, represented by the "Musketman" was NEVER used by itself. For one thing, the matchlock was a cumbersome 15 - 20 lb weapon that frequently required a 'rest' or forked stick to prop up to use, and could not mount a bayonet except by sticking it down the barrel - which both made a very heavy and clumsy spear and made it worthless as a musket. The result: musket men were NOT melee troops - they charged only if the enemy was already running, and much preferred to stand back and shoot until that happened. Also, they were virtually defenseless against charging cavalry, so they were Always used together with Pikes: The Tercio-type unit is, in fact, Normal for all armies which used matchlock muskets, not just the Spanish.

BUT except in specialized units like the Tercio, the game does not represent this. By making ALL 'Units' really represent Units instead of Individuals, we can 'automatically' introduce some tactics into the game without making the Tactical Array a cumbersome addition to the turn.
Many Units, especially at first, would be One Type of Troop: The Hoplite 'Phalanx', for instance, was simply a lot of men with big overlapping shields, some body armor and long, heavy spears. A late Medieval/Renaissance 'Pike Block' was simply a mass of pikemen. BUT the Swiss pikes and Landsknechts introduced 'Double Pay Men' armed with two-handed swords within their formation, to make them much deadlier against enemy infantry - get past the pike points, and he would cut you in half - stay in front of the pike points, and they would run over you - a nasty 'tactical' problem.

From 'Modern' times on, virtually all military units are Mixed. Modern infantry units since 1920 or so from the company up have included machine-guns, mortars, later 'bazookas' and rocket launchers, and now Antiaircraft guns and rockets, light artillery and Drones.
- and while many armies persisted in fielding units entirely composed of tanks, the 'secret' of the Panzer was that it was part of a Panzer Division, which included heavily-armed infantry, artillery, combat engineers, reconnaissance troops, antitank and antiaircraft guns. In other words, a single 'unit' that included elements of 6 to 8 different Civ V 'units'!

And, of course, if you field a stack that includes Panzer Division - or its equivalent US Armored Division, or Soviet Tank or Mechanized Corps - then whatever the opponent uses to attack the stack, they will run into a Buzzsaw that can counter just about anything they throw at it - and has the Tactical Mobility to counter their attack even from a Rear or Reserve position in the Array.

Instead of trying to revive the old Stack, let's see if we can come up with a way to keep some Tactics in the battles while keeping the game Strategic in space and time: that's our real problem with the Combat System now, and solving it would go a long way towards making Civ VI a far more enjoyable game.
 
Set an Army Stack unit Limit (for example maximum 7 units in an army + a leader)

To defeat an enemy army your army must destroy no less than 75% off it's units, or 50% if you manage to kill off the Leading Commander.

After an army is defeated the remaining units try to make a run for it, if your units are faster you pick them off and route them or turn them into POW's.

Battles between armies might go like this:

2 tiles away from each other (or perhaps 3) armies spot each other (you as the human player, encounter an enemy-ai army). The armies stop and in their tracks on their current tile and prepare for battle (all in the same turn)

The attacker (whichever army spotted the enemy army first) moves 1 of it's units (units stacked in his army) next to a tile adjacent to enemy army, chooses either to: dug in, bombard or charge.

Then the defending army picks one of it's units as the one taking on the enemy charge, bombardment, or attacks the fortified positions of the other one.

After that, the roles reverse and the defending army starts (with it's second unit), again, moves adjacent to enemy army, choses to: charge, bombard or fortify.

And so on, until one of the sides has the clear upper hand.

Of course, a Battle Screen would work best with such an approach.
It's really not that complicated, would make for fun combat experience, improve the Strategic aspect of the game and, if using Battle Maps/Screens such battles could take place in a single turn, historically much more accurate than a battle lasting a hundred years or so.
 
Set an Army Stack unit Limit (for example maximum 7 units in an army + a leader)

Army Stack Limits should vary depending on terrain and technology: with modern vehicles and techniques, hundreds of thousands of men and machines can be supplied almost anywhere: with the technology and organization of the Middle Ages, they were lucky to keep 20,000 men and horses fed for more than a week without stripping the surrounding countryside. The Allowed Stack Limit has to be variable if it is going to represent a 6000+ year span of history.

To defeat an enemy army your army must destroy no less than 75% off it's units, or 50% if you manage to kill off the Leading Commander.

An army is defeated when it believes it is defeated: an army out of supply, for instance, may run or surrender with the first shot fired (Hunger Kills Courage), while some opponents had such a fierce reputation they scared their enemies into running (Spartans, Mongols, Apaches). The 'defeat criteria' have to be subject to more variation to represent 30 - 40 different civilizations and their enemies over a wide range of situations.

After an army is defeated the remaining units try to make a run for it, if your units are faster you pick them off and route them or turn them into POW's.

This is an excellent point: men running suffer far more casualties than men standing and fighting. BUT it should happen On The Battlefield, your Light Cavalry or Light Infantry will vastly increase the enemy casualties (running down fleeing troops) and if there is nowhere to run (in Civ V terms, they are Flanked or, historically, surrounded) there is a possibility that ALL of the enemy army will surrender or die (Cannae, the great Encirclement Battles of WWII)

2 tiles away from each other (or perhaps 3) armies spot each other (you as the human player, encounter an enemy-ai army). The armies stop and in their tracks on their current tile and prepare for battle (all in the same turn)

The attacker (whichever army spotted the enemy army first) moves 1 of it's units (units stacked in his army) next to a tile adjacent to enemy army, chooses either to: dug in, bombard or charge.

Then the defending army picks one of it's units as the one taking on the enemy charge, bombardment, or attacks the fortified positions of the other one.

After that, the roles reverse and the defending army starts (with it's second unit), again, moves adjacent to enemy army, choses to: charge, bombard or fortify.

And so on, until one of the sides has the clear upper hand.

The problems with this are two-fold:

The 'battlefield' now covers 3 - 4 tiles, which makes even an ancient 'battle' 4 times larger than a modern city. The ground scale, in other words, is 'way, 'way off.

Both sides can set up on favorable terrain and 'force' the other side to attack them there. This will lead to stalemates, not battles.

Far better to have the entire battle take place on/within One Tile. You can still have the 'back and forth' actions as described, even including ranged fire to 'soften up' the other side or Movement to the Flank (countered by an opposing Movement From Reserve) - but all take place On The Battlefield, with terrain modifications based on the 'strategic' terrain in the tile or on its edge (river-crossings!)

Of course, a Battle Screen would work best with such an approach.
It's really not that complicated, would make for fun combat experience, improve the Strategic aspect of the game and, if using Battle Maps/Screens such battles could take place in a single turn, historically much more accurate than a battle lasting a hundred years or so.

Agreed, with comments as above.
 
Personnally, i think one upt was way more interesting than civ iv stacks of doom.

The only real issue on civ v is the tile scaling. Having an army that occupies half a continent while moving is both ackward and not really immersive. So i i would like one upt to remain but have civ vi work on scaling tiles. Not only for units but also for cities as i feel it would make conquest more interesting if cities were actually several tiles wide physically.

As for armies being mixed with different types of units as discussed above. Maybe there s a way to change how building units work. Instead of building a specific type of units, why not consider a new system in which you could customize how a unit is built by selecting different options based on units you ve unlocked.

Say you have warrior and archers available. You could build a squadron of 100% warrior or 100% archer or a mix of both. This would result in an hybrid unit capable of using a range attack less powerfull than a 100% archer but be stronger in melee. This could make for interesting choices in how you build your troops.
 
The only real issue on civ v is the tile scaling. Having an army that occupies half a continent while moving is both ackward and not really immersive. So i i would like one upt to remain but have civ vi work on scaling tiles. Not only for units but also for cities as i feel it would make conquest more interesting if cities were actually several tiles wide physically.

As for armies being mixed with different types of units as discussed above. Maybe there s a way to change how building units work. Instead of building a specific type of units, why not consider a new system in which you could customize how a unit is built by selecting different options based on units you ve unlocked.

I always thought changing the game scale would be a great way to make the combat more interesting. Something similar was attempted before in Civ5 but the mod is not maintained for ages.

So the idea would be that each tile would represent smaller area of land. Minimum distances between cities would increase, costs of military units would decrease and with more room to manoeuvre, the battles would be more interesting from tactical point of view. Cities would start small (1 tile) and could be expanded via building more districts. Battles for cities would be more interesting, belligerents could have partial control over cities.

(of course, this would increase system requirements because it would mean more tiles and more units for the computer to handle)

As much as I would like it like this, it would shift the game's focus on strategy. In Civ5 I think about military units as corps or armies (army level formations, marked with XXX and XXXX in NATO symbology). If my units clash with opponent's and vice versa in one turn, that's like a several months of operations, with tactical details abstracted away on strategical level. That's why one military unit can occupy huge area of land, such as any major city.
In the increased scale scenario, we would probably talk about smaller military formations, which makes a lot of sense due to specialized units like artillery, anti-tank, anti-air etc.

And it seems this is going to be addressed in Civ6 in some way as we will be attaching supporting units to regular units and merging regular units into 'corps'. Cities will build on surrounding tiles. But in the end it is difficult to say from those few screenshots if the world scale has changed or perhaps there will be more room simply because there will be less units.
 
The problem is, IUPT introduced real Tactics into Civ. It was a bad fit, because Civ is a strategic game, and so the 'tactical' ground scale and time scale were both wildly out of proportion, but it made battles much, much more interesting than the previous Stack 'Em Up 'strategy' that had prevailed. The interaction of ranged, mounted, anti-mounted, flanking, etc units made each battle a potential exercise in maneuver - tactics - firepower and far, far more interesting than battles in Civ had ever been before.
Hence why Civ5 wasn't a true "Civilization" game anymore.

Strategic aspects were all shrinked to give space to that tactical "Starcraft-like" aspect. And apparently Civ6 will follow the same way.

I find that sad, because making war has never been my major reason to play Civilization games. Empire building, growing an economy, managing diplomacy has always been my best fun. But to each his own, and I'm pleased with Civ4, so I can stick with that. :)
 
Hence why Civ5 wasn't a true "Civilization" game anymore.

Who said this? Official Civologic Commitee (consisting by accident only of civ4 veterans) after months of research?

What does it even mean? 8 million sold copies of civ5 - a game in top 5-10 played games on Steam today six years after release (I cannot imagine better proof of longevity, its workshop and modding still flourishes and develops). On every gaming website including 'user ratings' I've seen civ5 has basically 'legendary tier' ratings. It is probably the most succesfull strategy game of past years.

Myself I completely disliked civ4 and loved civ5 (and don't tell me 'I care only about graphics', half of my favourite strategy games are 10-15 years old and second half are basically spreadsheets), yet I have never said civ4 was a bad game, I always thougth these two are simply very different and both are high quality, famous and succesfull.

I mean, everybody is free to have his own opinion, but I can't stand "no true Scotsman" syndrome I am encountering in every video games community ever.
 
The big problem with stack of domes is that it basically make military investment the best investment at all times as you can always make your army stronger and conquest is generally the easiest way to win in civilization and especially in civilization IV who did not have any mechanics to stop snowballing after you got a few relative basic techs such as code of laws and currency, at that point it was just expand and use the new resources to make you even stronger and expand even more.

With 1UPT, atleast there is some initiative to invest in infrastructure as there is a limit to how large you can make your army before it become unwieldy. 1UPT also greatly increase the value of the terrain which do make the warfare part of game more interesting. However the ai have a much easier time to use stack of domes.
 
However the ai have a much easier time to use stack of domes.

If I recall correctly, for civ5 Community Patch mod project actually managed to turn tactical AI into pretty good one, so it's not impossible. It took them many months of work to do that and they had at least one proffesional programmer among them, though.

Anyway, I vastly prefer even civ5 imperfect 1UPT over stacks of doom. They are simply much more interesting, and while on early stages they don't make sense from realistic point of view, IMO they much better simulate warfare in mid-to-late eras (especially late eras), with enormous impact of terrain, 'frontlines' etc.
My main problems with 1UPT were
*traffic jams + very tedious movement of units
*AI
The first issue is adressed, as for the second one, well. I don't think it will be worse than Civ5 'release version' AI, and we somehow managed to survive this colossal failure :lol:
I think AI may have much easier task this time with reworked 1UPT system, too, as there will be less units and some semi-stacks. By the final version of Civ5 AI was able of building and amassing big diverse armies, as well as mass invasions, but it's main issue was managing and shuffling eternal traffic jams of units + enormous calculations required to proces all them which resulted on being always worse than player on micro level. I think new system will make it easier to manage by AI... as well as by the player.

Still, I hope they will put additional work to tactical AI...
 
1UPT is stupid and I have little hope for Civ6. Definitely won't be wasting my money on it.

Thanks for running one of the good series into the ground with bad game design.
 
You have no idea how stack combat actually works, do you? With collateral damage the attacker has the advantage, not the defender.

Realism Invictus got it right, the more units are on the same tile the weaker they are, with some technologies allowing more units per tile before the penalty starts applying. Allow infinite stacking, everything else just leads to traffic jams, but make units weaker the more units they share a tile with, the exact numbers depending on terrain, technologies, politics, buildings and leader/civilization traits.
 
Strategic aspects were all shrinked to give space to that tactical "Starcraft-like" aspect.

How was the old system strategic or even interesting? Group all units together and let the one with a bigger stack win? In my opinion warfare in Civ4 was pretty boring and gamey, legacy of designs decades old.

I admit the 1UPT system has its problems. For example wars in the past were mostly decided in a single battle / a few battles. Unit management is tedious - even though it's 1UPT I still want to group the units (I actually quite like how this is solved in Hearts of Iron 4). Or how artillery is overpowered. And more.

The fighting is more tactical, sure, but on strategic level. Players command at least division-sized units, not squads and platoons. They invade countries and siege major cities, not every village. In combat armies clash in the course of months (resulting in casualties on each side), not 'this knight whacks that archer'.

I for one love the 1UPT system and Civ6 seems to bring some much needed improvements.
 
1UPT was and is a terrible idea for Civ. It was shoehorned in there hamfistedly under the idea of making panzer general Civ which frankly just doesn't work.

At least Civ VI is modifying it somewhat to make it less heinous. Hopefully modders will have the freedom to do what they want.
 
Modders tried to implement MUPT in Civ5 without much success. It's really hard to program an AI basically from scratch, and patches can't be used in MP. (Why Firaxis? MP needs a vibrant mod community.)
 
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