[NFP] Civ6 Maya implementation question/discussion

[PhoenicianGold]

I was very disappointed with the way Firaxis implemented Mayans in civ 6, as the civ 5 Mayans were my absolute favourite civ to play bar none.

In civ 5, they were not only a very good civ by itself, but Firaxis opened up an exceptionally unique playstyle for the Mayans which perhaps gave them the most flexibility of all civs, and opened up some very fun off-meta playstyles.
I am of course talking about The Long Count ability, which would give you a free Great Person of your choice every 394 years (which early in the game equals a lot of free GPs).
This opened up all sorts of fun choices - should I get a free GS to plant down an Academy to turbocharge my science game with +8 science? Or should I get myself a GE to grab that key wonder I want? Should I get myself a Prophet to found one of the first religions in the game? Or should I perhaps get that Great Admiral (lol) in order to discover every corner of the world in the classical era, and thus open up the diplomatic game (world congress and trading) many eras before it's intended?

In civ 6 though, the Mayans are so incredibly bland. Their bonuses are really boring (a negative bonus compared to Koreas' flat percentage science/culture buff, while equally as boring), the Observatory is often worse than a regular campus, they get a slow start due to housing issues, and otherwise encourage a turtl'y playstyle.
Sure, they can go tall(ish), but they do so really only through increased housing from farms, while offering no real bonuses that would further encourage a tall playstyle.
The Mayans should at least have some mechanics resembling the civ 5 Tradition meta (bonuses tied to population count) if they wanted to encourage tall play, because simply having a large population is not fun or even that useful in civ 6 by itself.
Super boring!

TL;DR:
Bring back some version of The Long Count!

Hm, while I don't see any point in arguing for regressivism, particularly since many civs do not occupy the same playstyle niche that they had in V or prior games. But you may be right that having some sort of Great Person bonus might have helped Maya with tall play. That said, we already have pretty sweeping great person bonuses for Russia, Sweden, Brazil, Gran Colombia. Maybe the devs wanted to refine the idea of the Long Count and these civs are their attempts to implement it better. Maybe the devs have another civ in mind that they think free GP fits better, and we will see a new civ play as a soft "Maya" reboot.

Point being, I'm fine for buffing the Maya, but I don't really care that they're not the same as they were in V. If anything, I think the solution would be to give them a stronger science/production bonus, not bring back a fairly generic ability.

I would say the thing I find most disappointing about the Maya is that their abilities are fairly esoteric. I would like something a little more tangible showing why they don't need to be near freshwater, like say having a chultun/cistern replace the water mill in the city center. Maybe we can get that modded in at some point.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I would say the thing I find most disappointing about the Maya is that their abilities are fairly esoteric. I would like something a little more tangible showing why they don't need to be near freshwater, like say having a chultun/cistern replace the water mill in the city center. Maybe we can get that modded in at some point.

I really agree with this point. No-freshwater is an interesting design choice, but down to actual playing it's very frustrating, and the farm bonus cannot really makeup the precious time one spend on extra builders in the early game.

Moreover, it's not like the IRL Mayans built their cities without freshwater, the Cenote (natural sinkhole which provide freahwater) is a very unique feature of them; but currently we only have Ik-Kil as a natural wonder rather than a semi-natural infrastructure.

 

[Zaarin]

Moreover, it's not like the IRL Mayans built their cities without freshwater, the Cenote (natural sinkhole which provide freahwater) is a very unique feature of them; but currently we only have Ik-Kil as a natural wonder rather than a semi-natural infrastructure.

Perhaps the greatest irony is that the Maya are going to get the least use out of Ik-kil versus any other civilization in the game.

 

[Revanchist]

One of the things Civlization 6 lacks in general that would make a huge difference is unique features, IE, things that make your game different from someone else's. I am not going to delve into it too much as this is focused on the Maya, but things like cenote, other natural formations, and unique ways to play the game are what is really holding this iteration back from being great. Seeing something like a bonus housing yield next to a supposed cenote, and even giving bonuses to working cenote would make for an interesting play style

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Hm, while I don't see any point in arguing for regressivism, particularly since many civs do not occupy the same playstyle niche that they had in V or prior games. But you may be right that having some sort of Great Person bonus might have helped Maya with tall play. That said, we already have pretty sweeping great person bonuses for Russia, Sweden, Brazil, Gran Colombia. Maybe the devs wanted to refine the idea of the Long Count and these civs are their attempts to implement it better. Maybe the devs have another civ in mind that they think free GP fits better, and we will see a new civ play as a soft "Maya" reboot.

I've added in where the Observatory grants a Great Prophet point per turn at least. It might not fit with the rest of the theme of how they play but historically both the Maya religion and science were linked. Besides it also means you don't have to worry about building a Holy Sites at least in the early game if you want a religion.

Perhaps the greatest irony is that the Maya are going to get the least use out of Ik-kil versus any other civilization in the game.

Don't forget the Chichen Itza unless they get a lot of bananas.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Perhaps the greatest irony is that the Maya are going to get the least use out of Ik-kil versus any other civilization in the game.

Will they though? You can't build aqueducts nexts to Ik-Kil and since there are only six tiles which can get the production boost to districts and wonders there's no point in building a city center next to it...so the water benefit is negligible to any civ. And the Maya wouldn't really want to build an observatory adjacent since you want that to be near farms and plantations.

Point being, Ik-Kil might help the Maya more than anyone else, not as a source of water, but as a concentrated production boost to help them get down non-Observatory districts or wonders while they are still building their infrastructure. Seems like a wonder specifically designed for tall play, assuming it doesn't interfere too much with adjacency bonuses.

 

[Pietato]

Should be your 6 closest cities to the capital gain the bonus, and the palace starts with extra housing. Current Maya are the epitome of restarting.

 

[Amrunril]

I very much like the Maya design. I wouldn't want all civs to shake up city organization and settlement planning this much, but in a game with over 40 civs it's a good thing that some do. And while a 10% boost may not be readily apparent, the fact that it's applied to every yield means that it generates quite a bit of output (this is essentially the same boost an ecstatic city gets). At 15 or 20%, I feel like it would get pretty out of hand.

I do still find it odd that the Maya are described so often as a tall civ. You can fit quite a few cities within the 6 tile range, and if you focus on maximizing that number, you'll end up with a lot of smallish, closely packed civs. Even if you spread your cities out more instead of pursuing this path, your first half dozen expansion cities or so will all have a bonus that your capital lacks. Tall and wide aren't dichotomous options, and the Maya benefit from an ideosyncratic approach somewhere between the two.

Interestingly, I find that the Maya gravitate towards similar settlement patterns in CIv V and Civ VI, despite having virtually no mechanics carried over. In Civ V, the Maya were probably the best ICS civ, as they had a strong early game unique building that you wanted to build in as many cities as possible. This encouraged packing cities closely together in a pattern much like the Civ VI Maya can employ to maximize their number of cities in 6 tiles (though the Civ V Maya would of course continue the pattern beyond this range).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I do still find it odd that the Maya are described so often as a tall civ. You can fit quite a few cities within the 6 tile range, and if you focus on maximizing that number, you'll end up with a lot of smallish, closely packed civs. Even if you spread your cities out more instead of pursuing this path, your first half dozen expansion cities or so will all have a bonus that your capital lacks. Tall and wide aren't dichotomous options, and the Maya benefit from an ideosyncratic approach somewhere between the two.

Isn't the max number of feasible cities in a 6 tile range from your capital 13? I'm sure the number of cities for tall vs. wide is debatable but for people that like to spam a lot cities 13 might not be enough for some.

 

[kb27787]

Nothing to say, they suck regardless of start.
Irrigation is an awful tech to beeline first on deity (leaves yourself vulnerable without archery tech).
Plantation tiles are horrible to work.. and they don't give extra housing as compared to farms.

Not only that, sometimes you need bronze working just to clear that tile for that oh-so-special +6 observatory.
Meanwhile, Australia might be able to manager an even better campus than yours if they start near mountains with only writing as the prerequisite.

I'd suggest letting them start with a free worker for every city within 6 tiles of the capital as well. That MIGHT make them not so bad (but still they will be nowhere near as strong as, Ethiopia for example)

 

[Amrunril]

Isn't the max number of feasible cities in a 6 tile range from your capital 13? I'm sure the number of cities for tall vs. wide is debatable but for people that like to spam a lot cities 13 might not be enough for some.

Yeah, you get a theoretical maximum of 12 cities in range (+the capital, which doesn't get the bonus), and I'd guess more in the range of 8-10 on most actual maps. This may not qualify as wide play, at least beyond the early game, but I don't think tall is an accurate description of 8-10 closely packed cities. My point is that, while Liberty and Tradition in Civ V encouraged players to think of tall vs. wide as a binary choice, without those constraints, it's really more of a spectrum. The Maya abilities encourage a settlement pattern somewhere in the middle of that spectrum, with some more unique adjustments that don't really fit into that scheme at all.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Yeah, you get a theoretical maximum of 12 cities in range (+the capital, which doesn't get the bonus), and I'd guess more in the range of 8-10 on most actual maps. This may not qualify as wide play, at least beyond the early game, but I don't think tall is an accurate description of 8-10 closely packed cities.

Agreed.
In most games on Immortal or Deity, I consider about 8 cities to be my target number of cities when going peaceful (10 if possible). I'm unlikely to get to settle any more than that anyway (either due to AI claiming land, or early aggression threats), unless very lucky on the start location. But it's worse for Maya, since I have to settle within the capital radius (despite that attractive natural wonder just right over there...), or else face a penalty.
Considering the number of cities, I wouldn't say that the Mayans offer a "tall" gameplay experience, unless one plays at Prince where 15 cities is easy to plop down without any risk.

Maya for me just falls into the same category as Korea then - a civ that gets flat percentage bonuses to cities and an uninteresting unique campus, which is extremely boring.
Being punished for settling too far away, and not prioritizing early builders for farms (the most boring improvement of all) is not fun.
Won't play.

 

[KayAU]

I love the Maya, they suit my preferred playstyle very well, and are unique and interesting to play. They do have some issues, of course, and I do like some of the suggestions for buffs:

• An extra Great Prophet point from Observatories is a very nice idea, thematically fitting, and not overpowered
• They tend to start a bit slow, which is okay, but if it was to be improved, either a production bonus to Builders, or just a free Builder on settling your capital would be very nice (one per city would be extremely overpowered)
• I do think they could use a boost to scouting or initial visibility, as the decision on where to settle your capital is extremely important for them, and as it stands, you have to make it based on very limited information. I think just starting the game with more of the surrounding tiles revealed would be the most straightforward approach.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Perhaps the greatest irony is that the Maya are going to get the least use out of Ik-kil versus any other civilization in the game.

There is some sort of trend in Civ VI where civilizations would be the last to use WW/NW from their IRL History:

• Machu Picchu: the Incans are already packed around their moutains. They want to put Terrace Farms in the best spots to produce food and make their mountains more productive. Between the Terrace Farms and the Aqueducts, there is no more space for even more districts than campuses and HS to gain adjacency from mountains.
• Chichen Itza: Lady Six Sky does not want rainforest (except if there is cocoa or bananas).
• University of Sankore: Mali gains strength from international trade routes, but all bonuses are target towards internal trade routes.

Meanwhile, Australia might be able to manager an even better campus than yours if they start near mountains with only writing as the prerequisite.

It's unfair to compare any civ to Australia. Yeah, Mayans seems weak compared to them, but nearly every civ is weak. I'm sure that if we take a median/average score in all our Victories Elimination Threads, Australia might be the best (close to Japan).

 

[Pfeffersack]

There is some sort of trend in Civ VI where civilizations would be the last to use WW/NW from their IRL History:

• Machu Picchu: the Incans are already packed around their moutains. They want to put Terrace Farms in the best spots to produce food and make their mountains more productive. Between the Terrace Farms and the Aqueducts, there is no more space for even more districts than campuses and HS to gain adjacency from mountains.
• Chichen Itza: Lady Six Sky does not want rainforest (except if there is cocoa or bananas).
• University of Sankore: Mali gains strength from international trade routes, but all bonuses are target towards internal trade routes.

I know that this is a common opinion and I won't dispute that these are all examples where the real world builders of the wonders don't really profit from them in game. But I wonder if that isn't just a perception issue - a couple of other wonders seem to fit nicely (Angkor Wat, Bolshoi Theatre, Casa de Contratacion, Golden Gate Bridge -for TR Moose Bull at least-, Eremitage, Orszaghaz, Petra!!!, St. Basils Cathedral), while for the majority it is kind of somewhere in the middle for historic builder civs.

 

[Morningcalm]

There is some sort of trend in Civ VI where civilizations would be the last to use WW/NW from their IRL History:

• Machu Picchu: the Incans are already packed around their moutains. They want to put Terrace Farms in the best spots to produce food and make their mountains more productive. Between the Terrace Farms and the Aqueducts, there is no more space for even more districts than campuses and HS to gain adjacency from mountains.
• Chichen Itza: Lady Six Sky does not want rainforest (except if there is cocoa or bananas).
• University of Sankore: Mali gains strength from international trade routes, but all bonuses are target towards internal trade routes.

As to the Mayans, fully 90% of Mayan society was dedicated to farming and there is speculation that their slash-and-burn farming practices led to a decline in fertility that subsequently contributed to the collapse of Mayan civilization. Thus, I don’t see the Mayan incentive to clear rainforest in favor of farms as ahistorical; quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

The only issue I have with the Maya is their starting bias. They shouldn't spawn near the coastline or perhaps tundra if only a chosen map type allows it.
As for concept and design, they are 10/10 for me.

Nothing to say, they suck regardless of start.
Irrigation is an awful tech to beeline first on deity (leaves yourself vulnerable without archery tech).
Plantation tiles are horrible to work.. and they don't give extra housing as compared to farms.

Not only that, sometimes you need bronze working just to clear that tile for that oh-so-special +6 observatory.
Meanwhile, Australia might be able to manager an even better campus than yours if they start near mountains with only writing as the prerequisite.

I'd suggest letting them start with a free worker for every city within 6 tiles of the capital as well. That MIGHT make them not so bad (but still they will be nowhere near as strong as, Ethiopia for example)

they do not suck, you just can't handle them... The fact there are some OP Civs doesn't mean we must give everyone buffs and have ridiculous power creep.
Their UU and half-price district is enough to make them good.

 

[kb27787]

The only issue I have with the Maya is their starting bias. They shouldn't spawn near the coastline or perhaps tundra if only a chosen map type allows it.
As for concept and design, they are 10/10 for me.


they do not suck, you just can't handle them... The fact there are some OP Civs doesn't mean we must give everyone buffs and have ridiculous power creep.
Their UU and half-price district is enough to make them good.

We REALLY need to have a deity GOTM with the Maya and see how many ppl here actually finish that game.
Even the prince GOTM science challenge proved that the win times were much slower than with other civs. With deity and an aggressive neighbor, you have 2 choices: beeline animal husbandry to archery for UU while leaving your capital at 2 pop (and in the meantime try not to get killed) OR beeline irrigation/writing with a builder first for irrigation eureka and get killed without any fighting chance if the DoW indeed comes.

I am not suggesting any power creep; I merely ask that this civ be brought to the level of "OK" civs, like Netherlands or Japan. As of now their opening is too weak on deity.

Immortal players and lower need not comment on this unless they've tried...

But then maybe someone will argue that this game should be balanced around settler difficulty or so.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

We REALLY need to have a deity GOTM with the Maya and see how many ppl here actually finish that game.
Even the prince GOTM science challenge proved that the win times were much slower than with other civs. With deity and an aggressive neighbor, you have 2 choices: beeline animal husbandry to archery for UU while leaving your capital at 2 pop (and in the meantime try not to get killed) OR beeline irrigation/writing with a builder first for irrigation eureka and get killed without any fighting chance if the DoW indeed comes.

I am not suggesting any power creep; I merely ask that this civ be brought to the level of "OK" civs, like Netherlands or Japan. As of now their opening is too weak on deity.

Immortal players and lower need not comment on this unless they've tried...

But then maybe someone will argue that this game should be balanced around settler difficulty or so.

Ok, Mr. Deity pro "shut up casuals"...
I have no idea what GOTM shows I know I played the Maya on the deity and had a lot of fun with them. I admit I had to reroll. Spawning The Maya near the coastline on continents map is a thing they should fix.
If you want every Civ stronger than previous than you will be trapped in power creep very fast. Perhaps some people want it just to make the game easier, but this is not the best way to improve the game.

 

[Zaarin]

Petra!!!

When did the Nabataeans get added to the game? Calling Arabia the builders of Petra just because the Nabataeans spoke a variety of Arabic--especially in a game where the Arabians are led by a Kurd from Cairo--seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Civilization's "Arabia" has always been a polite name for the caliphates...