Civic Feedback Requested

[KillerClowns]

City States seems too powerful, IMHO. I can take the culture drop in exchange for being able to maintain a monstrous empire. Any other form of government becomes worthless when empire-building.

 

[TheJopa]

I redid the civics back then in 0.23. I tried to balance them and in the same time tried to add a bit of consistency to them as seen in vanilla civ, that means that less meaningful effects (such as +-10% etc) were either made more important or removed.

Here is a changelog of what I did:

CIVICS:
1) City States: No distance maintenance, -15%gold, -10% culture and no longer increased WW
2) God King: 50% culture instead gold in capital, upkeep reduced to medium
3) Aristocracy: No more farm effects (Thats on serfdom), +25% gold (And Royal Guards are now stronger)
5) Theocracy: Gives +25% building modifier in cities with state religion
6) Republic: No longer gives more GP but gives +1 gold from village and +2 from town
7) Religion: No longer gves +10% culture
8) Pacifism: No longer has '1 gold per military unit' but WW is increased by 75%
9) Nationhood: (Wishlist: Cities with foreign nationalities get more unhappiness and reduced culture OR Gives –1 to relations with other civs)
10) Social Order: No longer 10% military bonus and free units but gives 2 happy from courthouse and basilica instead 1 and reduces maintenance from number of cities by 25%
11) Slavery: No upkeep and no bonuses from quarry
12) Arete: Gives +1 hammer from workshop
13) Military state: Military production and free military units increased to 25% but can no longer draft
14) Serfdom: No more yield changes and worker speed bonus but gives +3 gold, -1 food from farm, and cottages upgrade 25% slower (Wishlist: Cottages degrade 1 level upon converting to serfdom)
15) Caste System: No longer gives 1 unhappy and 1 research per specialist. Can assign unlimited merchants, artists and engineers (!)
16) Guilds: No longer give unlimited specialists but +1 gold from workshop, windmill, watermill and 2 happy from mages guild
17) Agriculture: No longer hammer penalty
18) Mercantilism:Gold bonus increased 20=>25 and gives unlimited merchants. No more building happiness changes.
19) Foreign Trade: Gives +50% Trade route yield in addition to old +1 trade route
20) Public Healers: 3 happy from infirmary and no unhealthiness from buildings (civic made generally stronger)
21) Apprenticheship: No more military bonuses but +25% faster workers and +1 hammer from town
22) Military discipline: Gives +2 experience instead +10% military production
23) Religious Discipline: Medium upkeep
24) Schoolarship: +2 research per specialist instead +1, added 1 happy from alchemy lab, no WW penalty, -10% gold
25) Fend for themselves gives –10% number of cities maintenance.
26) Liberty no longer gives unlimited bard

 

[psychoak]

One thing to keep in mind when complaining about a civic is that you may or may not have a useful empire for using it. Free trade rocks in a large, trade happy empire that isn't at war with everyone and is burning 100% on science. Mercantilism is the reverse, it's perfect for when you're utterly boned, no one likes you, and your science slider is nowhere near 100%. If you're not running a specialist economy, agriculture really isn't that effective, whereas free trade and mercantilism both bring substantial monetary gains under the right circumstances.

Most of the detractions listed in this thread are a matter of empire size, God king has lethal upkeep in a 20 city empire spanning half the map. City states isn't particularly useful while you're in a long war unless you've got that 20 city empire and flat can't afford to switch. The only civ I really don't like is crusade, and that's only because it's usually too late to really be effective. Attaching great commanders left and right could be quite the beneficial side effect, but by that point you've probably already popped half a dozen great people or you've intentionally delayed your advancement to avoid it. The civic itself still has great use as the ultimate war civic. You never have to worry about war weariness stopping you, and you can build rather large armies with the substantial production bonuses and free demagogs.

Social order feels weak for a religion civic, but on it's own you have a low upkeep boost to production with +2 happiness and 10% of pop in free units. The combination of basilica and courthouse means you'll never have a problem with city maintenance, so even godking doesn't cost you much in a large empire, it's excellent for combining happiness and production boosts across the other civics, if mainly due to the basilicas themselves and not the civic.

 

[westamastaflash]

...
Social order feels weak for a religion civic, but on it's own you have a low upkeep boost to production with +2 happiness and 10% of pop in free units. The combination of basilica and courthouse means you'll never have a problem with city maintenance, so even godking doesn't cost you much in a large empire, it's excellent for combining happiness and production boosts across the other civics, if mainly due to the basilicas themselves and not the civic.

In my latest (monarch) win on a continents map (yeah, I'm not good enough to beat the higher difficulties), I had Flauros, founded the Order. Between my Manors, Dungeons, and Basilicas, i ran 85% maint reduction. Add into that Code of Junil & Palace law mana, 95%. Once law node and I was paying no maintenance at all. +2 happy was good to have for my cities for feasting.

Kind of weird, vampires worshipping Junil. If only I could have a lawful evil empire running sacrifice the weak AND social order.

So I agree with you, psychoak - it all depends on the empire you're running.

 

[Nor'easter]

I don't have any suggestions offhand for changes, but here are the civics I tend to use, FWIW.

For starters, I pretty much always avoid civics that cause negative culture, so with that in mind, here goes.

GOVERNMENT

I try to switch out of Despotism to God King as soon as I can, then eventually Republic -- I like the culture bonus and the unhappiness for non-Republic civs. I avoid City States because of the negative culture. Used Aristocracy once, but wasn't happy about losing my Royal Guard units when I switched (it was one of my very first FfH games, so I was a bit clueless). Never used Theocracy.

CULTURAL VALUES

I switch pretty early from Nationhood to Religion, then ultimately to Liberty -- LOVE the +100% culture. That's why I've never used Social Order when I've had the Order as my state religion. I've noticed the AI civs tend to use Consumption a lot, which I've never used. I also don't use Pacifism, because of the unit support costs. I've never played as the Bannor, so have never used Crusade.

LABOR

I've noticed that the AI civs like Serfdom, which I don't really use. What I use here will vary. If I've got Octopus Overlords as my state religion, I'll run Slavery. I'll run Arete if I'm doing Runes of Kilmorph. Otherwise, I'll end up running Caste System. Guilds doesn't really give much -- since I run Liberty, I've already got unlimited bards, so the only thing Guilds adds is unlimited merchants, which I don't usually need. Military State gives negative culture, so I don't use it.

ECONOMY

Agriculture's really nice for running a specialist economy, and I usually switch to it when it first comes up as an option. Ultimately I end up running Foreign Trade -- you can mitigate the effects of -10% gold in your cities with the right buildings, and the +20% culture boost is nice. Have never run Conquest, and Mercantilism only rarely (if everybody hates me and I thus have virtually no foreign trade routes anyway). Guardian of Nature I don't think is that useful, since you can get adequate health effects with the right buildings.

COMPASSSION

I'll stay with Basic Care until I get Protect the Meek. After that, it depends: if I'm good alignment I'll use Public Healers; if I'm Ashen Veil, I'll use Sacrifice the Weak -- combine it with Agriculture and you've got a NICE specialist economy.

EDUCATION

I switch to Apprenticeship early. Later on I'll use either Religious Discipline or Scholarship for the research boost -- Religious Discipline if I'm trying to generate Great Prophets, Scholarship if I want a Great Sage -- sometimes switch back to Apprenticeship for military reasons. Never used Military Discipline.

It might be interesting if Civics other than Aristocracy allowed access to specific units, which you would lose if you switched civics. I don't have ideas for particular units, it was just a general thought -- would make your choices of civics more consequential. Not necessary, though, not by any means, just something for the design team to ponder.

 

[Kael]

Thanks folks, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I tend to be conservative when it comes to balance changes but expect to see some movement along the lines you suggested in 0.30 (I dont want to move to far without giving you guys a chance to playtest and check it out).

Feel free to keep posting, I'll keep reading. I just wanted everyone to know I read through the feedback (I was glad to see the consensus) and we will be making changes based on it. Thanks!

 

[Thonnas]

This might be the (or a) thread you are thinking about:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=226901

I don't really have anything to add now, as I haven't been playing much recently, but I know we tossed around a number of ideas in the above thread.

Generally, though, I think people still tend to think about a lot of the civics in a kind of linear, or evolutionary, way, like in vanilla. In vanilla, civics become available and are meant to be replaced as society, government, and the world economy evolve. In FfH, there is still a bit of that kind of evolution in regard to some of the civics that require higher level techs, but a civ could still be relatively primitive in some regards, while being able to institute what are essentially modern civics. And now I've now forgotten where I was going with this. I think I'm just a little worried that everyone, or at least those most vocal, might retain the impression that certain civics should have a degree of superiority to others, and that there might be some kind of pressure for them to be made that way. I'd just hate to see that happen.

Well, I didn't say that I didn't have anything to say, just nothing to add...

 

[vale]

Heres another old thread that discussed the civics. This was before the agriculture change.

Some thoughts:

Aristocracy is not nearly as bad as people are giving it credit for. There are several reasons:

1. Food is much more abundant in FFH than in vanilla.
2. There are fewer options for easily converting food to other resources than in vanilla.
3. Cottages are not nearly as good as in vanilla.
4. The Royal Guardsmen units are simply awesome. Mobile monuments are solid.
5. Farms are one of the best improvements to work because of the power of the Agriculture civic.
6. You really need some source of commerce.

City States and Aristocracy are by far my two favorite government civics and 90% of the games I play see me using those exclusively once they are available.

I don't fool around too much with the cultural values civics. I generally just stick with Religion for the entire game.

Slavery "feels" much weaker than in vanilla. This surprises me because the intuition would be that the abundance of food would overpower it. But I never feel like I'm well equipped to take advantage of the population rushing as much as I would be normally.

Arete is a very nice alternative to Slavery, and when I go Runes, I feel like I'm outproducing my Overlords counterpart thanks to rush-buying and better minees. Caste System is the only other one in Labor that gets my motor running.

Now to the first of two huge problems in balance:

Agriculture. Dropping from 2 food to 1 was a huge help, but if I'm not elves, I still never ever leave this civic. It is just too good, especially in conjunction with Aristocracy. I really don't know what the solution is, there are actually several problems with this overabundance of food:

1. Priesthood and Scholarship become totally sick.
2. Aristocracy gets boosted significantly.
3. Slavery and Sacrifice the Weak (the other problem civic) are boosted as well.
4. Settlers (for balance purposes) cost some ridiculous amount of hammers which I assume is because otherwise it is too easy to pump them using Agriculture, but feels clunky to me.

Like I said, the only other civic that I consider using in the economy category is Guardian of Nature.

Sacrifice the Weak is also completely sick. Especially since the rest of the compassion civics are so lackluster. The pop-rushing "feels" more like vanilla slavery (probably because you are growing so fast). I know there are drawbacks to being AV, but this far outweighs any drawbacks if you have planned ahead.

Priesthood and Scholarship are very, very nice. I would be hard pressed to name any of the other Education civics off the top of my head because these are such no brainers.

Some tweak suggestions:

City States is too good too early. If it was weaker, and if other changes were made, it would be possible to move Settler costs back in line with other units.

Slavery could use a boost in my opinion (if it would be possible to boost pop rushing from slavery without boosting it for Sacrifice the Weak that would be ideal)

 

[Calavente]

I have not played enough different empires to have meaningful comments on most civics (I've not yet found anything useful on mercantilisme and foreign trade but I've just been instructed by reading this thread).

my only "complaint" yet is on slavery :
-you lose the rush with gold.
-sacrifice the weak is far better for pop rushing.
-quarry are almost inexistant.

to have slavery being somewhat interesting I would have :
-actual upkeep is ok. not nile as slaves are expensive : police to arrest runaways...etc. not overexpensive as labor is cheap.
-allow gold rush.
-+1hammer to plantation (as stone/salt/salpeter are removed/not implemented, quarry only applies to marbre : only 1 or 2 per empire at most)

-maybe something to reduce sacrifice the weak overpowering effect.
(typically having sacrifice the weak as almost best civic for the kuriorates is embarrassing... few usefull cities : limited need of arete, no need of order civics (few cities : needs few archmages with law III) ..Etc)

 

[Cadaveres]

What I trully think here is that civics cannot be "perfecly" balanced, as there are many different potential strategies based on the many different mechanics of FfH2: choosing a certain religion with a specific leader while playing some specific strategy might overpower certain civics.

What is going on here (based on what I personally play and what I read on this thread) is that most of the people are playing a "give me food yum yum" (maybe for GPP, for Calabim feeding, for amazing Kuriotates cities...). Those are interesting but conservative strategies, and that's why civics that are against those strategies are quite undervalued.

Specifically, military rush is not the usual choice. People (including me) love getting those ultra-experienced tier 3 units. When you have size 20 cities, with huge production rates, +10% military production means nothing (maybe 1 turn less??). When you have huge happy cities with lots of resources war weariness is not a problem. That's why I would power up the following civics:
- Nationhood: +20% military production (instead of +10%), or maybe +10% military production for all units and an extra +20% for tier 1 units. An extra promotion for newly built units that gives them +10% healing rate when inside cultural borders (or similar cool but not very significant bonus inside borders). This would power up earlier military rushes.
- Social Order: +20% military production (instead of +10%).
- Crusade: +50% military production?? I don't know, but crusade should be also improved somehow (it destroys your economy).
- Military state is COOL as it is: come on you can draft units
- Conquest: producing units with food is cool for the extra production but doesn't let your economy grow. I would give it an extra small bonus, apart from the extra gold when conquering: what about a promotion that gives units +50% experience from combats attacking a city? or maybe 10%/20% of stealing a technology when conquering a city would be more interesting so you don't fall back technologically.

Also, I agree that Religious civics should be overpowered compared to other civics, and Slavery is not so overpowered. Slaves are not that worth: as workers, they do not come very often (25%), plus usually when you are attacking you are already getting your opponets real workers, that are already better. Also, they just give 15 hammers when you use them to rush production (is quite ok early, but in middle game 15 hammers are just nothing). As Calabim you cannot eat them (why not?) and they are only a bit more useful when playing Baselraph (human cages). The "sacrifice people for production" is quite cool, but again it powers up "tons of food" strategies.
I would power up Slavery a bit: maybe I would give the possibility that the slaves can be drafted too, that is, transformed into a warrior (when you are in a city) that has a "Slave" promotion (meaning getting -20%/-50% strength so they are far from being good combat units). Maybe slave units could be set free after they get a certain amount of experience...

Just my thoughts

 

[Calavente]

technically, slaves can be upgraded in a rush in lunatics... (but expansive)
that is an easy way to develop your empire after a war and then react quickly if you are attacked...

but still : +1prod to quarry is meaningless : either remove it (almost no effect) or add +1prod to something more useful that makes sens with the concept of slavery either of:
+1 prod for farms? (cumulated with agri : equilibrium with -1prod from agri) but maybe too powerful)
+1for mines? (too much competition with arete)
+1prod for workshop ? why not.
+1prod for plantation ? why not : not plantation everywhere, but there are still some of them : silk, reagant, insence, dye, banana, sugar ... do I miss more? and historically makes sens : cotton and sugar fields in south US pre-secession war.

as a side not : I really like the -1prod for agri... it balances the civic. Agri is only powerful on grass and floodplains. -1prod makes you grind your theeth on wheat and sometimes corn (arg! gain 1F but lose 1prod). and you just transform plains into (pre-agri) grassland.

maybe : -1commerce with agri for farms ?
as most farms are close to rivers, it would be a small drawback for floodplains and grasslands. so that you will want (eventually) to change civic. and as early game commerce from river is important, you will have a choice to make between tech race and early pop growth.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

My own approach... one by one: I will bypass the 'initial ones' (that would be Despotism, Tribalism, Decentralization, Basic Care, No school system) since I assume they are supposed to not do a single thing.

GOVERNMENT:

- God King: As mentioned before really, really good. The bonuses are very high and the maluses (+10% distance upkeep, high civic upkeep) are very affordable. The fact there is no single real alternative for this in small to medium empires tells me this is just too good.

- City States: A quite viable, balanced option for those times you have overextended yourself. I feel the good and bad things are balanced well enough... mostly because I rarely use it, I nearly always go from God King to Aristocracy.

- Aristocracy: The perfect choice for my mid to endgame. I *always* switch to this when I get sanitation (and I am using Agriculture). The +1 from farms compensates the malus for a still very good city growth. The trade bonus then is... massive, and this is my reason to not cottage spam (my technique is cottage the plains, farm the grasslands, so I never lose a hammer). When Agriculture gave +2 instead of +1 I switched to this as soon as I got it.

- Theocracy: Really weak. I usually play builder and that usually gives me the tech advantage (at least up to monarch), so the exp bonus is nice but nothing too awesome.

- Republic: Only useful when I go for a Cultural victory. The malus when I don't have it is usually not noticeable in the end game.


CULTURAL VALUES:

- Religion: When I play on prince or lower and manage to found 2 or more religions, this is really awesome. +1 happiness for each temple, the cultural bonus and the basic +1 happiness for your religion is... incredible. When I play noble and I manage to have 4 religions (the 3 basic ones + veil/order), it basically solves my game happiness wise.

- Pacifism: The maluses just... hurt too much. The unit upkeep and the war weariness basically kills your economy when you play prince+ or with agressive set neighbours. Even at the very start, when you notice that with just one city and the first units you build you have to lower your science output, it just makes me switch from this immediately.

- Nationhood: Very nice and balanced. A bit plain, if anything. As I said, when I have one religion it's a doubt to use this or Religion at the start (when playing Grigori, the first thing I do when I build the 6th or so unit, is switch from Pacifism to this). The later ones are best, but that is compensated by the fact they need a mid to late tech.

- Social Order: Nice when you just have the order as the monolithic religion in your lands. Now that basilicas are a touch more balanced, it's a nice one and not too game breaking.

- Consumption: One of the winners of the set. The bonus is really, really nice. Usually my switch after nationhood when I am playing monotheistic (and not with the Order) or agnostic.

- Liberty: The Republic of the set, I only switch to this when going for a cultural victory. Otherwise, no use.

- Crusade: Sucks. It's the suckiest suck that has ever sucked. I love the Bannor and I never switch this when going world conquer... I think that's saying enough.


LABOR:

- Slavery: Balanced. When I do play the Overlords (usually with Calabim), I find myself using this one more often than not, so I guess it's nice enough.

- Arete: The big thing of this civic is not the advantages, which are still very nice. No, the big thing is that you get it really, really early in the game. Being able to spend money at the start of the mid game is really nice. ALWAYS use this when I am Runes.

- Military State: I never ever use this. The religion ones or caste system are always better for me. I would only use when attacked unexpectedly and badly defended, and then only when spiritual to avoid anarchy. The high upkeep kills the advantages anyway, and the production bonus is not that noticeable.

- Serfdom: I rarely use this even when I love the bonus. I guess I only do it when playing a not aristocratic and agricultural dwarves to make the production skyrocket. The malus is just too crippling otherwise.

- Caste System: The choice when I am not Runes or Overlords. Since I usually go for really big cities, the bonus just... rocks.

- Guilds: Plain and boring and I hate great merchants. No maluses... but... have I said boring?


ECONOMY

- Agriculture: Even just with +1 food bonus it absolutely rocks for early, mid and non cultural endgames. At early game it will make you produce workers and settlers faster. At mid and end game will compensate for aristocracy. This has made me forget about cottage spam and irrigate every little blessed grassland I see. Only Guardian of Nature can overshadow this.

- Conquest: Refer to Military State. Same comments apply here.

- Mercantilism: This would be my non cultural victory option if Agriculture (or Guardian) did not define my game so much.

- Foreign Trade: Again, I switch to this only when I am going for cultural victory. Otherwise it is always Agriculture/Guardian.

- Guardian of Nature: The only single reason to go for Fellowship of leaves when you are not Ljosafar (if you are Ljosafar it is just plain mad to not go for Fellowship of Leaves). The bonuses are... overwhelming and game defining in all senses. When I go Leaves I end up turning every square into a forest. Sometimes, even the hills.

COMPASSION:

- Sacrifice the weak: Awesome when being tremendously Evil. Superb for Calabim.

- Fend for themselves: Very, very, very weak. There's absolutely no reason to switch to this (going from low to none upkeep and pleasing the Calabim is not a good enough reason by far).

- Protect the meek: The way to go when you are not Veil or Good.

- Public Healers: The way to go when you are Good and not Guardian of Nature (which usually provides a bonus to health and happiness big enough to not have to spend this much in upkeep).


EDUCATION:

- Apprenticeship: Pretty nice bonus, considering the moment you get this. The rest are better, but they come later, so it has its role and moment. And again, not a must, since sometimes you can prefer to avoid the upkeep if you don't expect war or too much military activity.

- Military Discipline: Again, look at my comments at Conquest, then at my comments in military state.

- Religious Discipline: The way to go when going for an Altar victory or mono religious. Still, I feel it is balanced since going Scholarship is always a good option.

- Scholarship: The way to go when going polytheistic or agnostic. Since Education is rather percieved as a progression rather than options, I find this fine.


As you can see, all religion civics are in my oppinion good (Social Order, Slavery) to Awesome (Arete, Guardian of Nature, Sacrifice the Weak). When you switch to one of those religions it's just plain sensible to go to those civs, except for Order and Overlords which are not awesome enough to make them a must.

Religions apart this would be my usual civic choices:

Early game:

God King - Religion (Nationhood if Grigori) - Tribalism - Agriculture - Basic Care - Apprenticeship

, switching to City States if I overextend.

Mid Game:

Aristocracy - Religion (Nationhood if Grigori) - Tribalism - Agriculture - Protect the Meek - Apprenticeship

End Game:

Aristocracy - Religion (Consumption if Agnostic/Monotheistic) - Caste System - Agriculture - Public Healers (Good) / Protect the Meek (Neutral or Evil) - Religious discipline (Monotheistic or Altar victory) / Scholarship (other cases).

End Game (cultura victory):

Republic - Liberty - Caste System - Foreign Trade -
Public Healers (Good) / Protect the Meek (Neutral or Evil) - Scholarship (since it's better to go polytheistic for this type of victory).

Of course, some civilizations change this radically. For example Ljosafar's extreme advantage of ancient forests makes them do everything around the fact you can build cottages in ancient forests, so cottage spam is just too god to pass, and thus you ignore the agriculture/aristocracy ones, which is my default strategy otherwise.

 

[Maksim]

Some more comments.

Government Civics - I really like the initial option to go either God-King or City-States. Helps differentiate between slow expansion (e.g., Khazad, Kuriotates, anyone playing for a shrine) and fast expansion.

Problem is, once I've made that choice, none of the later options appeal to me - going out of City States means a lot of upkeep added, going out of God King means you lose your best production/commerce city.

Theocracy may give you +1 happy, but the +2 XP is much easier gained with Apprenticeship. Aristocracy takes away food, thus starving your cities (or limiting their size - same thing). Republic comes too late to matter, it seems, and doesn't really have much of an oomph! Happiness can be got in other ways, great people come slowly at this point anyway, and going out of city states' reduced maintenance will hurt.

Cultural - Really like the initial setup, very clever. As for the other ones, there's so much happiness to go around in my games (as opposed to health), that consumption does not seem that valuable. Also, consider that you could just stay in religion, get +1 happy that way, build the religion's temple and get a second happy face and something extra on top, which is better than +2 you get with market and theatre (taverns come too late once again).

Labor - Besides the relgion-specific ones (which are both good), Caste System was the only one I used for a specialist economy. Serfdom's -10% food seemed a killer (food is king, after all). Guilds comes too late.

Economy - The problem with Agriculture is that it comes early, gives a major boost at the beginning of the game, and it's very difficult psychologically to get out of. Conquest seems iffy - I'm not sure producing military units with food is actually a benefit, as most of my armies are produced in mature cities with only 1 or 2 extra food.

Mercantilism is out because lack of foreign trade routes means lack of commerce means lack of science, and money is not much help there. Foreign Trade's extra trade route and negative cash cancel each other out, leaving just the culture bonus - cannot compare to Agriculture.

Guardian is religion-specific, and nothing short of amazing.

Compassion - Haven't played AV, so don't know about Sacrifice The Weak. Fend For Themselves seems boring - the difference in upkeep between basic care and this is not large enough to justify the switch, especially in the early parts of the game. The good ones (protect the meek and public healers) are really nice, and I adpot them as they come, as I'm always short on health.

Education - Apprenticeship is good - the +2 XP is nicely offset by -10% production. Maybe it is too good. Military Discipline would be used in war, but doesn't give XP to units, so I wouldn't switch out of apprenticeship to it. Both Religious Discipline and Scholarship are good, useful and seem balanced.

 

[Calavente]

maybe military state or military discipline can give a free promo to new units ??
-drillI
or CRI
or ...
-CD I
thus being a bit mor useful and being representative of learning some martial art that is normally not common to every unit.

 

[xienwolf]

Reading some of the linked threads makes me think that a nice balance for Agri could be:

Only get the +1 food IF you also get the -1 Hammer (so only good on plains pretty much).

Or, remove the -1 Hammer, instead -50% GPP (or each specialist grants -1 hammer)



I wonder also: Can a civic provide a bonus to the output of a specific specialist only (ie - all bards +1 Gold, or all Sages +1 Culture?). If so, it would be nice to have some civics provide bonuses to the output of a specialist type, while others (in the same category) provide unlimited assignment.
This way, you have to decide between STRONG, or PLENTIFUL specialists. But since it is only for a single type of specialist, it isn't completely overpowering when you combine a specialist boosting civic in each category.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Reading some of the linked threads makes me think that a nice balance for Agri could be:

Only get the +1 food IF you also get the -1 Hammer (so only good on plains pretty much).

Or, remove the -1 Hammer, instead -50% GPP (or each specialist grants -1 hammer

Meh, seems like that would be killing the advantage of it; it'd still be useful for cities in very marginal areas, but not for any of the fun things to do with it.
I'd say making agriculture high upkeep would be fine. (maybe med?) A great boost early game still, but it'd squeeze your economy when you got big. But sometimes still worth it.

 

[mcguigan97]

Interesting comments from everyone. Clearly civic choices depend a lot on playstyle.

My comment is that sacrifice the weak is too powerful, especially compared to the rest of the choices. This plus ritualists mean that I almost always go for AV (exceptions are elves, dwarves and when I want to RP good). Even the "good" civilizations are stronger with AV than other religions.

I would suggest either toning down sacrifice the weak (more unhealth for example) or beefing up the other choices.

 

[xienwolf]

I agree Nikis. It would suck to zap the playstyles that use Agri as it is.

I need to start thinking of ways to make other things as powerful as Agriculture, if used properly. Far more fun to have to choose between seemingly overpowered options than to have to flip a coin over a slew of mediocrity.


So vote +1 to NO NERFING, and plenty of Munchkin-dynamics!

 

[nealhunt]

Overall, I think that later civics should tend to be more valuable than earlier ones. Otherwise, why bother with trying to research the required techs? Whether "better" is because they are just plain better or because they tend to be more useful based on later stages of the game doesn't matter. It's okay to go for different strategies and such but if the mroe advanced civics are niche tools with respect to strategy they should be pretty darn effective in that niche.

On food: Food drives the game. Anything manipulating food production is going to be very twitchy to balance. Balancing it is going to be like making fine adjustments with a 5 pound sledgehammer.

GOVERNMENT
Despotism - Abandon ASAP. That's okay, since it's where you start. I might witch back if I were desperate due to war weariness, but it would have to be horrendously bad.
City States - This is the bulk of the game for me.
God King - Early game. Get there quickly and stay there up until 4-7 cities, depending on how close they can be to the capital. Switch to City States when the maintenance gets too high.
Aristocracy - Bordering useless in all but one situation - Agriculture civic and Financial civ. Aside from that, I'll take the extra food and run specialists for equal commerce yield plus GPP. A couple of settled GPs will easily outstrip the benefits from this. Only with financial to add to the commerce yield is this worth it.
Theocracy - Could be good, but since I tend to end up with a large, hard-to-maintain empire, the bonuses usually aren't worth moving out of City States.
Republic - Only if happiness gets out of hand.

CULTURAL VALUES
General commentary: The initial options are all useful at different points in the early game but not so much that it's worth changing to. Well balanced overall, imho. Unless Spiritual, I just stick with whatever the default is in most cases. As a spiritual civ, though, the order seems like a no-brainer: 1) switch to nationhood to get those early warriors out, 2) switch to pacifism once you can assign specialists to get some bonus GP while troop levels are low, 3) switch to religion as religions come on line because by that time your cities are big enough to need the help.
Religion - Obvious use. Decent option for a religion-oriented strategy.civ.
Pacifism - Good in early game, but quickly becomes virtually impossible to maintain in the later game. Once the AC gets up there, you will be in war and not having troops is suicide.
Nationhood - Good in early game for defense.
Social Order - I've only used this a couple times and noticed no great benefit.
Consumption - Good for balancing an overextended empire (which I am wont to do), but not so great as to want to stay there if the economy can be balanced other wasy. A good balanced option, imho.
Liberty - Specialists are always fabulous. A good late-game option if the economy allows.
Crusade - Can't see this as anything but a desperation ploy.

LABOR
Slavery: Whipping-based strats are legion in vanilla and many of them port over to FFH. Since this takes a lot of effort to get to and requires giving up gold rushing, it's definitly not too powerful. It may be a little bit weak simply by comparison. The only time I actually use this is if I end up in a position to grab OO.
Arete: A solid civic. The mine bonus can make for a monster production city. The only downside is that it comes from a dead end tech aside from this decent civic.
Military State: Good for gearing up for war or defending on short notice. I will park here with a decent economy but otherwise it's not terribly attractive. Application is limited to the point I wouldn't bother researching the tech needed.
Serfdom: I just don't use this, but I have no reason why...
Caste System: Obviously very good for a Specialist Economy. A solid choice.
Guilds: Theoretically, unlimited merchants could be amazing. Unlimited Merchants, with Agriculture and a high happiness cap means one city can virtually support an empire. This strategy was set up for vanilla (Caste System and Globe Theater) not too long after the initial release. Each Great Merchant provides more food, allowing the specialist count to rise, creating more GPP, etc.. In practice, this comes at such a late time that it's impractical and the other bonuses aren't that great. Overall, it's of very limited use.

ECONOMY
Decentralization - Fine as a starter
Agriculture - Good for early growth and getting a SE running. Good for a production center or civs stuck in borderline terrain (Tundra and such). Also good in combination with any of the whipping strategies. Extremely versatile for such an early/cheap civic. Switch ASAP and this is the default.
Conquest - Almost never use this. I'll take the extra food and work mines or run priests or engineers for more production. It can help squeeze out more military production in a hill-poor area, but it's a very minor niche. Unless the game situation just happens to fit that niche, the bonus XP isn't worth it.
Mercantile - Like Consumption, a nice option for balancing an over-extended economy. Still, it's usually back to Ag if feasible.
Foreign Trade - Mathematically, this never adds up in the game. Unless you are running a very low gold slider, the trade routes don't come close to making up for the loss. It's really only useful if you need a culture boost.
Guardian of Nature - Good for FoL, elvish civs (or those that captured lots of Elven Workers). Otherwise, just not worth it.

COMPASSION
Sacrifice the Weak - Good for whipping strats, especially since it can be combined with gold rush civs. Limitation based on alignment makes up for that. Overall, balanced.
Fend for Themselves - I don't see the point of this. Civ maintenance is so small a part of economic cost that this just isn't worth it. Definitely needs a boost of some sort.
Basic Care - I stay in this most of the game, unless Expansive.
Protect the Meek - The lower cost for Expansive civs means this is a free benefit, so it's definitely worth a turn of anarchy to switch.
Public Healers - I'm not doing this unless I have a desperate need for health and/or happiness.

EDUCATION
No School System - Starter civic. No problem.
Apprenticeship - A good bonus/penalty mix for the point at which you get it but with an offsetting production bonus for Nationhood, there's no reason not to go here immediately. A good spot to park until better Religious Discipline or Scholarship open up.
Military Discipline - Good for during a war when you need both quick production and reduced weariness. Otherwise, stay away. Very situational but useful.
Religious Discipline - Great if you want to run a priest economy and/or go for an Altar win. Research bonus is good otherwise.
Scholarship - Great for running SE, unless you need to fight. Good balance choice against Religious Discipline.

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Edit: Somehow I missed the fact that Aristocracy is +2 commerce for -1 food. That makes the commerce tradeoff much better in comparison to specialists. I think it should work well for Financial civs that automatically get their bonus on all tiles. For a normal civ I would still probably still choose priest or engineer specialists in most cases. My estimate on the value hammers is close to 2 commerce, and the GPP tip the scales for non-financial civs. Obviously, I haven't played it since I didn't realize it was +2 commerce. This is all theory at this point, but without trying it I'd call Aristocarcy sitautionally useful.

 

[Turinturambar]

Some more comments.

Government Civics - I really like the initial option to go either God-King or City-States. Helps differentiate between slow expansion (e.g., Khazad, Kuriotates, anyone playing for a shrine) and fast expansion.

Problem is, once I've made that choice, none of the later options appeal to me - going out of City States means a lot of upkeep added, going out of God King means you lose your best production/commerce city.

Theocracy may give you +1 happy, but the +2 XP is much easier gained with Apprenticeship. Aristocracy takes away food, thus starving your cities (or limiting their size - same thing). Republic comes too late to matter, it seems, and doesn't really have much of an oomph! Happiness can be got in other ways, great people come slowly at this point anyway, and going out of city states' reduced maintenance will hurt.

Cultural - Really like the initial setup, very clever. As for the other ones, there's so much happiness to go around in my games (as opposed to health), that consumption does not seem that valuable. Also, consider that you could just stay in religion, get +1 happy that way, build the religion's temple and get a second happy face and something extra on top, which is better than +2 you get with market and theatre (taverns come too late once again).

Labor - Besides the relgion-specific ones (which are both good), Caste System was the only one I used for a specialist economy. Serfdom's -10% food seemed a killer (food is king, after all). Guilds comes too late.

Economy - The problem with Agriculture is that it comes early, gives a major boost at the beginning of the game, and it's very difficult psychologically to get out of. Conquest seems iffy - I'm not sure producing military units with food is actually a benefit, as most of my armies are produced in mature cities with only 1 or 2 extra food.

Mercantilism is out because lack of foreign trade routes means lack of commerce means lack of science, and money is not much help there. Foreign Trade's extra trade route and negative cash cancel each other out, leaving just the culture bonus - cannot compare to Agriculture.

Guardian is religion-specific, and nothing short of amazing.

Compassion - Haven't played AV, so don't know about Sacrifice The Weak. Fend For Themselves seems boring - the difference in upkeep between basic care and this is not large enough to justify the switch, especially in the early parts of the game. The good ones (protect the meek and public healers) are really nice, and I adpot them as they come, as I'm always short on health.

Education - Apprenticeship is good - the +2 XP is nicely offset by -10% production. Maybe it is too good. Military Discipline would be used in war, but doesn't give XP to units, so I wouldn't switch out of apprenticeship to it. Both Religious Discipline and Scholarship are good, useful and seem balanced.

I almost completely agree with your evaluation of the civics, the only difference is that I find the later compassion civics pretty useless due to their higher upkeep.
Upkeep costs are a very tricky problem to balance. In my last deity hippus game I ran at the end of the game: despotism( for the -50% war weariness, which was worth about 18 happy faces)/social order/tribalism/fend for themselves/no school system, simply because none of the benefits of the higher level civs were worth the higher civic upkeep costs, which really ramp up at emperor+.

The civics in general are a pretty mixed bag. Some offer gamebreaking advantages(agriculture/sacrifice the weak), some are really good(arete/slavery/guardian of nature/city states/religion/god king/social order) and the rest are pretty much dominated by the aforementioned civics, so you almost never switch to them.