Civic Feedback Requested

I almost completely agree with your evaluation of the civics, the only difference is that I find the later compassion civics pretty useless due to their higher upkeep.
Upkeep costs are a very tricky problem to balance. In my last deity hippus game I ran at the end of the game: despotism( for the -50% war weariness, which was worth about 18 happy faces)/social order/tribalism/fend for themselves/no school system, simply because none of the benefits of the higher level civs were worth the higher civic upkeep costs, which really ramp up at emperor+.

The civics in general are a pretty mixed bag. Some offer gamebreaking advantages(agriculture/sacrifice the weak), some are really good(arete/slavery/guardian of nature/city states/religion/god king/social order) and the rest are pretty much dominated by the aforementioned civics, so you almost never switch to them.

Well, I play Emperor-Immortal on smallish maps (my current machine can't handle larger ones), and the upkeep costs haven't been too bad.

Also, using Expansive leaders helps with the Compassion civics, obviously, since they don't have to pay upkeep costs for those.

Hopefully, once the team gets a chance to polish the AI, we won't be playing at such high levels anymore!

I agree Nikis. It would suck to zap the playstyles that use Agri as it is.

I need to start thinking of ways to make other things as powerful as Agriculture, if used properly. Far more fun to have to choose between seemingly overpowered options than to have to flip a coin over a slew of mediocrity.

So vote +1 to NO NERFING, and plenty of Munchkin-dynamics!

Yes, that does seem the way to go.
 
My votes. I think the civic is good if it is specific: sometimes is preferrable and rarely can give overpowering effect. The civic is bad if it is unavoidable or useless. My proposals are underlined.

Government

Despotism - good
Neutral as starting and -50% war may be salvation in later long wars.

City States - good
Good in early and middle, excellent for early fast expansion. Slightly too general.

God King - excellent
Good for small maps and organized leaders. Excellent for sprawling or if you rush for the religion.

Aristocracy - bad:useless
Just calculate difference between farms+towns without and only farms with Arist. Effect may be good only for a short period (when cottages are not grown) but kills the perspective. And concurence is too hard. If not -1 food may be interesting to try.

Theocracy - bad:unusable
+2 XP is not enough. Should have more war-oriented bonuses. Unusable because of Republic.

Republic - bad:unavoidable.
Almost inavoidable later because of the penalty. No specific application. Too bad. Remove the penalty.


Cultural Values

Pacifism - bag:almost unusable
Only for Altar rush and very early Grigorians. And even there effect is not really powerful. Give +150% birth rate.

Religion - average:too general
Only one weak specific application: cultural victory, when you spread as much as possible religions in 3 biggest cities - for the bonuses from temples.

Nationhood - good
But nothing VERY specific.

Social Order - average
Not so bad as it is but in comparison with other religion-specific civics not enough strong.

Consumption - good
Unavoidable for Grigorians, good for others. Maybe more specficity?

Liberty - looks good
Looks good. I did never use it - not my style.

Crusade - looks good
Looks really interesting but i never used. Bannor are not my favorites.

Labor

Tribalism - neutral
Nice to have something specific making usable later like for Despotism. E.g. no revolts because of the culture.

Slavery - average
Too weak as religion-specific. Propositions: +10 labor from quarry, slave can be upgraded to worker (elven slave to elven worker), slave can be upgraded to Gladiator (axeman with a chance to become barbarian).

Arete - good
Just good. No choice for RoK civilisation.

Military State - not sure
Never used.

Serfdom - excellent
Sometimes good. Excellent with sacr the weak.

Caste System - good
Slightly too general.

Guilds - looks good
Never used.

Economy

Decentralization - neutral
Add specificity. (?)

Agriculture - good
But slightly too general.

Conquest - looks good
But usualy loses competition. Good with sacr the weak. Maybe needs some enpowerment.

Mercantilism - good

Foreign Trade - looks almost useless
+1 trade rout is not so much at that time. So only for cultural victory?

Guardian of Nature - excellent
Not unavoidable, but often usable. May be very strong with sprawling.

Compassion

Sacrifice the Weak - excellent

Fend for Themselves - useless

Basic Care
Protect the Meek
Public Healers
- average
Not much to play with.

Education

No School System - neutral

Apprenticeship - good
Too general.

Military Discipline - good
Sometimes useful.

Religious Discipline - excellent
Makes good combinations and not unavoidable.

Scholarship - good
But nothing VERY specific.
 
nice analyse..

I really will have to try the serfdom/conquest/sacrifice the weak combination.... :)
 
Aristocracy - bad:useless
Just calculate difference between farms+towns without and only farms with Arist. Effect may be good only for a short period (when cottages are not grown) but kills the perspective. And concurence is too hard. If not -1 food may be interesting to try.

Wrong.

Ok. Let's assume Sanitation is in and Agriculture is being used. Lets suppose we have x non-plains tiles we are going to improve with either of the two following options:

a) all Aristocratic farms (so net gain is +2F, +2C per tile)
b) mix of normal farms and cottages (so net gain is +3F per tile for farms, , +?C for others)

Total net gain on the worked tiles in a) is +2x F, +2x C. Lets say we want to match the food gain while using b). So 2/3 of our tiles will need to be farms. So 1/3x of the tiles will need to provide +2x C. So each cottage has to produce +6 commerce on average. But in FFH, the absolute maximum a town can produce is +5 commerce. For 90% of the undeveloped cottages game, the Aristocratic farms are going to absolutely kill a pure cottage economy. The rest of the time they will just gently molest it.

Plains obviously are a trouble case for the comparison, but I generally cottage/workshop those under Aristocracy unless i need to spread irrigation if I can't transform them to grasslands somehow.

Now, to be fair, at some point in the game specialist economies can far outstrip Aristocratic farms, but the techs that enable that to happen are far down the tech tree and to actually arrive at them it may be a good idea to use the power of Aristocracy. Most of the game, you just don't have enough outlets for hiring commerce (i.e. non priest, non bard) specialists.

Please do not remove the -1F from Aristocracy. It would be completely and utterly sick if you did. In my opinion, Aristocracy is much more deserving of a tweak down in power than up unless Agriculture is changed. Not that I think it should actually be tweaked down in power, but to make it better would be insane.
 
I concure with vale.
even for a SE

2farms not in capital, grassland :
agri + sanitation: +3F :
2farms 6F==> 2sage : 6 science + 1priest : 1gold 1H :
with scholarship ==> 3sage : 12science need 5 pop

agri + sanitation + aristocracy ==> +2F+2C.
2farms : +4F4C ==> 2sage, +4c ==> 6science +4c/
with scholarship : 8science +4c. need 4 pop

globaly, without scholarship, aristo is better than not using it (save for other boni of gvt civics...)
with scholarship, it is equivalent... as long as you have the not reached the happy cap !!

casts allow for more output out of specialists...
+3F: 2farms 4F==> 3sage : 12 science 2 culture
with scholarship ==> 3sage : 15 science need 5 pop +2culture
==> more efficient; but later tech, need more happies to have more input

so it seems balanced...
plus : better yield with less pop, allows royal guards
minus : cannot use another gvt civic/ upkeep / lower total pop due to less food. guilds give better results..
 
Wrong.

Ok. Let's assume...

Yeah, I was wrong with this simple arithmetics. There are some possible profit. After Construction and Sanitation. With Agriculture. On grasslands. With no Financial trait (look on the river). :) Let then thing.

Before Sanitation Aristocracy is inacceptable - population is a problem. And during expansion, when you need to rise population in new cities it is also a problem. Then there are cities with few food and farmable tiles - they need as much food as possible. And finally you have no use neither of God King nor of City States. It was early game.

Improving terrain to grasslands comes with Commune with nature. Its rather late. Royal guards are not so strong at that time. And you are in contradiction with Republic and have your penalty (last game I had -8 hap before switching).

So I still keep my opinion. Too many difficulties.
 
i'll have to agree with it-ogo on this one. simply missing out on god king and city states is a reason not to go for aristocracy. and besides that, it only works for cities with mainly grassland (or plains) as tiles... on an area with a lot of hills you need all the food you can get. It would be ok if you can chose which cities have the food-commerce trade-off, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

It still has it's uses, but the times the +2 C bonus outweights all the disadvantages are slim at best.
 
for my games, if you have issues with republic, you are late enough in the game to already have sanitation and eventually begun terraforming some lands. (then you go republic as someone that was not aristo... and all is even, you just have to get some pop back and improved war chariots..)
unless you go late for aristocracy, royal guard are powerful and do nices upgrades, with promo sticking. (7 defense/ 3mvt /guardsman/ cast hope ... this is not unworthy...as guardsmen, if you cast valor on them, they will have insane xp...)

oh, never said you had to go aristo just when getting it... only when you have sanitation, and that god king is not worth anymore (more that 6-7 cities anyone ?) or city states issues too much unhappiness due to war... or units are costing more than maintenance so commerce is worth more than maintenance reduction...

It really depends on your expansion strategy.
But it isn't an all-powerfull civic that is a no-brainer... that means a relly well made civic.

with or without financial traits doesn't change anything for the interest of arisotcracy... financial just improvesit a lot. but without financial, it is still competitive.

more maths
financial
for river grassland farms, +1 for std, +3 for aristo ; other grassland farms : +0 and +2
with financial : +1 for std, +4 for aristo ; other grassland farms : +0 and +3
w/ or w/o financial, gains for aristo are at least +2commerce/farm

plains farms
-with sanitation and agri and scholarship 2farms :+4F : 2sage 8science 4pop
-with sanitation and agri and aristo and scholarship : +2F : 1sage, 4 science 4commerce, 3pop. ==> equivalent yield but needs less happy faces
-w/o scholarship goes : 6science 4pop vs 7science 3pop, aristo winning again

in my game, I gained gold+science going from god king toward city state and then toward aristocracy... it depends on where you are, what you are aiming to do and how you are playing.


would you say that arete is very specifical as you need many hills per cities Or need to go GP heavy... to make it worthwhile ?? not very usefull in an area with lot of food flatlands...
 
My assesment:

Government

Despotism
Doesn't really do anything. Ok, for a starting civic, maybe change cost to none.

City States
Excelent if you are not interested in using order and building the all the buildings reducing maintanance. Pretty solid civic for expansion periods. Culture penalty is a bit harsh, but balances the civic out nicely...

God King
Very good early game civic, shadowed badly in mid and later game by City states and aristocracy.

Aristocracy
Makes for silly amounts of commerce, very powerful, but quite ok now that agriculture evens the penalty...

Theocracy
Comes too late in the tech tree to actually be usable outside unit production bursts, and the penalties are a bit harsh.

Republic
The penalty to other civs is a bit game breaking. Even though it encourages wars against republics nicely. Maybe reduce the happy penalty some...


Cultural Values

Pacifism
Change cost to none and boost the great person bonus. As it is it is a bit too weak for use usually.

Religion
Ok startup civic, but not really too special.

Nationhood
At the moment possibly the most obvious choise in it's own category, ok as is.

Social Order
Ok, but should get boosted a bit to compete with other religion specific civics.

Consumption


Liberty
Essential for cultural victory.

Crusade
Ok, never really played with bannor, so can't really comment on it.

Labor

Tribalism
Set upkeep to none, since it doesn't do anything.

Slavery
Very weak compared to other civics since querrys are very rare. Either change bonus to +1 production from mines like arete, or just change the bonus to +20% production.

Arete
Very strong civic, yet well balanced.

Military State
Strong civic, very expensive and harsh on culture though. Reduce culture penalty to -20% and it should be ok.

Serfdom
Good civic, even though it should be moved way earlier in the tech tree, maybe code of laws.

Caste System
Ok, yet again, too late in the tech tree to be very useful.

Guilds
Considering that it comes from a very late game technology, it is pretty weak. Maybe add unlimited engineers.

Economy

Decentralization
Doesn't do anything, change cost to none.

Agriculture
One of the basic corner stones some strategies, ok in genral.

Conquest
Very good, but expensive. Ok as is.

Mercantilism
No foreign trade routes is a huge penalty, so the benefits should be a bit better. 25% gold bonus?

Foreign Trade
Ok, but needs a bit of tweaking, maybe 25% trade route income added?

Guardian of Nature
Very good, very expensive, but lose the production penalty. At the moment it makes it significantly weaker than other religions.

Compassion

Sacrifice the Weak
Best civic in game, insanely powerful. Needs some real hinderances. High upkeep doesn't sound right, so maybe change +10% gold to -30% gold. Should have high penalty to unhappy as well.

Fend for Themselves
Ok.

Basic Care
ok

Protect the Meek
It's costly, so add +1 happy.

Public Healers
It's costly so add +2 happy.

Education

No School System - neutral

Apprenticeship
Ok.

Military Discipline
A bit non descriptive, maybe add +1 happy from Training yard or other such building.

Religious Discipline
Good as is.

Scholarship
Good, maybe drop cost to medium.
 
in my game, I gained gold+science going from god king toward city state and then toward aristocracy... it depends on where you are, what you are aiming to do and how you are playing.

oh, never said you had to go aristo just when getting it... only when you have sanitation, and that god king is not worth anymore (more that 6-7 cities anyone ?) or city states issues too much unhappiness due to war... or units are costing more than maintenance so commerce is worth more than maintenance reduction...

would you say that arete is very specifical as you need many hills per cities Or need to go GP heavy... to make it worthwhile ?? not very usefull in an area with lot of food flatlands...

of course it's situational, most civics are (terrain, diplomatic status etc.). just like some civics suit some civs better than others (agriculture as Ljos with FoL for example works a lot worse than arete as the khazad). Aristo combined with sacrifice the weak would make a killer combo, but again that's only an option for AV players.

Who knows, maibe in my next game i'll try to make an aristo build. I haven't been playing FFH for too long, and most of my games i've been one of the more "special civs (gameplay wise)", like the Ljos, the dwarves, infernals etc.
 
lol thks Demus, we agree...

for me, agri is balanced :
-powerful when in the right situation,
-uninteresting on wrong situations,
-never totally crippling if you misjuged the situation (ex going pacifism + city state + scholarship, and being dragged into a war before you can change civics)
-can compete with other civics of the same kind depending on situations

and currently, my math may say that sac the weak would mostly lose by going aristo ... for them losing 1F for 2c is loosing 1sage = 3-4 science and gaining only 2commerce, 3if financial. (while you are under the happy cap)
if limited by happies... the maths becomes more difficult.
 
Yeah, I was wrong with this simple arithmetics. There are some possible profit. After Construction and Sanitation. With Agriculture. On grasslands. With no Financial trait (look on the river). :) Let then thing.

Before Sanitation Aristocracy is inacceptable - population is a problem. And during expansion, when you need to rise population in new cities it is also a problem. Then there are cities with few food and farmable tiles - they need as much food as possible. And finally you have no use neither of God King nor of City States. It was early game.

Your math is still wrong. First of all, the financial trait and whether tiles are riverside is totally irrelevant to the discussion since that will boost cottages and Aristocratic farms equally. In fact, the only time it isn't equal (non riverside cottages) is a situation when the Aristocratic farms are better.

Yes, if you aren't running Agriculture (I can't for the life of me understand why not), Aristocracy is weakened. But the idea that pre-Sanitation Aristocracy is bad is just totally ridiculous. You can't say "oh lets only compare currency powered towns with Aristocratic farms and then act like I'm skewing the data by assuming I can have Sanitation in the discussion. Pre-Sanitation is pretty early game, and cottages are likely to be underdeveloped at best during that time period, so just Agriculture and Aristocracy powered farms are still going to be completely dominating them then even without Sanitation. Do the math the same way I did it before. Under Aristocracy and Agriculture, the farms are giving +1F, +2C, while under just Agriculture the farms are giving +2F and the cottages are giving +?C. Now the X tiles we are improving give +X F and +2X C in the first case, so to equalize in terms of food production we would need 1/2 farms in the second case. So the cottages are going to need to produce on average 4 commerce each to equalize. Thats a town or a currency powered village...not early game sorry.

Aristocracy is what I see as the "upgrade" from City States. You run City States until you have enough improvements down to make the switch to Aristocracy profitable (hint:it's sooner than you think). If you are a smaller empire, perhaps God King is the way to go, but I prefer the expansive approach and thus the first two dominate.

Just to also take away some of the luster off the "yeah but if you have all plains this sucks" argument, lemme point out a couple of things:

1. City placement is still relevant. How good is a city with 20 plains tiles around it? Answer: not very.
2. Plains farms with Agriculture Sanitation and Aristocracy are Oasis Equivalents. Not spectacular in FFH, but not OMG terrible.
 
seeing vale's signature just remembered me of the draft option...
(never noticed it)

Why has drafting been put out of Erebus ?
mercenaries (insta unit) and beast of agares (unit consums pop) seems to replace this mechanism but are not really equivalent

it is a nice and powerfull option (I dread a combination between Sacrifice the weak and drafting.... worse : AV calabims on flood plains using sacrifice the week and drafting... using 6 LawIII units... to still have huge cities, never unhappy, while producing and endless flow of free units...)

are there plans to add it back as a way to boost an existing civic ?
 
Drafting hasn't been removed: the labor civic Military State allows conscription up to 3 times per turn. (<iMaxConscript>3,</iMaxConscript>)

Also, pit beasts are just (Chaos III) summons like any other; they aren't "insta units" any more than any other summon, nor do they consume population. I think you are thinking of of Beasts of Agares (you know, the giant Bears) which lower population by three and cause their building cities to revolt when finished (and since tey start with prophecy mark, also raise the AC). Are they "Insta units?" I haven't built them in a while (several versions back), but I thought it took time to build them like anything else.
 
my mistake...
didn't read the wiki long enough...
I just couldn't remeber about this trait for military state.
 
About serfdom- Whenever I use it, -10% food is just so much that my cities begin to starve. Then they produce even less food as there are fewer workers, so it leads to even more starvation... And higher bonus on serfdom overall wouldn't hurt... Bu I would like to try out my proposal, that towns and villages revert one level upon converting to serfdom.
 
b). So 2/3 of our tiles will need to be farms. So 1/3x of the tiles will need to provide +2x

Are you kidding, 2/3 farms? Using your assumption of no plains you don't need a single farm (although you might want one to accelerate growth). I generally have 1-3 farms for a size 20 city while running a cottage economy. With flood plains you can cover every tile with cottages.

There is also the issue of getting aristocracy without cottages if you don't have gold.

DOn't get me wrong the aristocracy route can be good, but it doesn't dominate cottage economies the way you suggest
 
I often use aristocracy, but only for the Royal Guards (and for the royal guard UUs that I myself added)
 
Are you kidding, 2/3 farms? Using your assumption of no plains you don't need a single farm (although you might want one to accelerate growth). I generally have 1-3 farms for a size 20 city while running a cottage economy. With flood plains you can cover every tile with cottages.

Read the sentence preceding that quote:
Lets say we want to match the food gain while using b).

It is a starting point to assume that food production should be equal otherwise we are comparing two totally different quantities and need to come up with a fair conversion rate between food and commerce. Also, looking at the wikipedia, with Currency, a freshly built cottage is going to take 24 normal turns to catch up in total commerce production to a freshly built Aristocratic farm. In the meantime, that farm was producing an extra food or two over the cottage, so the city is growing faster, or is supporting a specialist, or is supporting a mine to get commerce boosting infrastructure in faster etc.

I generally have 1-3 farms for a size 20 city while running a cottage economy. With flood plains you can cover every tile with cottages.

If you have 2 farms in your size 20 city and convert to Aristocracy and run one more farm instead of a 5 commerce town you get just as much food, and actually gain 1 commerce. If you have 3 farms and end up having to run 5 farms under Aristocracy to feed the population you end up gaining 1 food total and breaking even on commerce. And thats assuming that every other tile in your city is a Currency powered town. If you had underdeveloped cottages you are coming out even better. If you are financial you are coming out significantly better and breaking even even on commerce if you were only running one farm before and had to upgrade to two. This is actually a flaw of my earlier argument when I said that Financial helped cottage/farm and Aristocratic farm equally when it very clearly helps the Aristocratic farms more.

One drawback of Aristocracy is that you lose some flexibility in city specialization. It becomes harder to settle a hilly area and make it into a production monster since you are losing a food in those critical farms. But the upside is you get to take maximal advantage of Agriculture, all your cities are pretty much self sufficient very quickly. Later in the game, if you transition to a specialist economy with the advent of Scholarship, it is almost seamless as you have the farms in place already. You are working great tiles to take advantage of Slavery and Drafting.

Now let me talk about God King, because I really believe this is an overrated civic and it keeps getting brought up as a huge opportunity cost of being in Aristocracy. High Upkeep plus increased distance maintenance means that a large spread out civ is going to be hit hard in the upkeep department by moving from City States or Aristocracy to God King. "That's Ok, I just run God King when I'm a more compact civ". Fine then, how valuable is that 50% gold bonus in the Capital? Answer (at least in my experience with non Khazad civs) = not very since in the smaller empire, you will typically be running a high research slider and thus will not be taking very much advantage of it. The 50% production bonus is nice and if you are wonder-grabbing it is possibly a lifesaver. But if you are running a different government civic and are able to afford a larger empire, the presence of more cities should mitigate that production bonus almost entirely. I still do not understand why it isn't getting the full Bureaucracy bonus which would make it as good as everyone seems to think it is.

There is also the issue of getting aristocracy without cottages if you don't have gold.

I never said don't build cottages, by all means cottage up those plains while you are working on the techs you need. What really helps is the presence of City States early in the tech tree on the way to keep your economy afloat while you rex and develop the infrastructure/improvements/trade network needed to get your tech rate up. But agreed, getting the techs necessary to have the Aristocracy available and effective is the most painful part.
 
In particular I think Republic badly needs the unhappiness penalty to other civs removed. This did make sense in Vanilla Civ4, where civics are basically a progression from weak ones to better and better ones, and Republic is the best so every civ eventually ends up adopting it.. but in FFH's civics where even an endgame civ has to make tough choices between equally good civics, the unhappiness makes me feel like I'm inevitably forced to give up aristocracy or city states or whatever to keep all my major cities happy. Players shouldn't be forced into any civic because of the negative effects of not using it, they should get to pick between different potential positive effects..

Oh, side note: someone said AV/sacrifice the weak civs lose by going aristocracy? Not by a long shot.. with AV, food/unhealthiness is no longer a concern, you're producing so much food that your cities can grow as much as your happiness allows. Which generally caps your population long before you run out of food surplus, making aristocracy a great way to convert a little unneeded food into more gold. I generally mix farms/cottages (with either God King or City States depending on how much you expand) to keep the cities growing until AV can be founded, then switch to arist to instantly boost commerce and lose some of that excessive food that can catapult your city pop into unhappiness.
 
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