Civic Feedback Requested

Guardians of nature should have strong synergy with the Forest Preserve improvement from BtS, which isn't buildable in FfH right now but hasn't been removed. (I went ahead and added the ability to build them with the Hidden paths tech.) They should also increase the rate at which new forests become forests and forests become ancient forests.
 
Nationhood gives a :) bonus from training yard, it might be nice if the other T2 unit buildings had a bonus somewhere, like foreign trade getting a :) from stables, or fend for themselves having a :) from hunting lodge, aristocracy having a :) from mage guild, etc.

(but that's a flavor suggestion more than game balance, which is a higher priority with respect to civics, of course.)
 
or maybe, instead o just a :)
have some changes... :
-foreign trade gets a +10% trade routes frome stable,
-fend for themselves gets +1/+2 xp from hunting lodge (units are more capable to find their ### in the dark) ... ;)
-aristocracy gets +2 :science: with mage guild

..Etc (but I don' know if it is possible to assigne things other than :) and :health: to buildings through civics...)
 
I agree that a modest boost for late-game towns, either directly from a tech or from a later civic would be a good idea. It doesn't need to be big as I assume the mod isn't intended to make mass-urbanization as desirable as in vanilla, but a little bump would be nice.
 
I believe my reasoning still stands. Short answer: in Civ regular, once everyone starts building riflemen, nobody builds warriors anymore, and there's nothing wrong with that. Riflemen are just better than warriors.

The difference between Civ regular and FFH is that rather than having one tech path, you (effectively) have a choice of tech paths to follow, but within the same tech path or specialization, there is still nothing wrong with the end of the path being strictly better than what's offered near the beginning of the path. Mages are better than adapts, maceman are better than warriors (which is true; I'm just complaining that it's only true once mithril weapons become available, which is a little too late), horse archers are better than horseman, longbowmen are better than archers. I see nothing wrong with republic with being city states. It's not even "better" in any sense that you can consider strict.

As for "everyone will only run the later civics" that's not a problem of civics per se, but a problem of the tech tree, namely the tech tree being tool easy to complete entirely, or that tech path specialization is not deep enough. If "everyone rushes for republic", that means either:

- the "civics" specialization is too easy or too powerful compared to other specializations.
- the entire tech tree is not deep or difficult enough, and people just complete the whole thing
- the other specializations are too deep and not completeable

Two points I'm trying to articulate:
- later civics are not always more powerful than earlier ones
- there is nothing wrong with later civics always being more powerful than earlier ones
 
If you're still reading this thread here's my 2c:

Generally speaking there should be more of a reward for higher tech civics, and they should be a bit simplified (as mentionned by sylvanllewelyn & TheJopa): drop the small effects, 3 effect types max.

Despotism: balanced
disagree with BCalchet: +50% prod in capital would be overpowered, even with the -20% in other cities, especially at higher difficulty levels because you can build a few cities besides your capital (settler price & maintenance) and when the ones you conquer eventually become productive, you've pretty much won the game anyway

City States: overpowered
agree with loocas, especially with inflation & upkeep being so high.

God king: balanced

Aristocracy: balanced

Theocracy: needs a boost
suggestion: +1 gold per state religion building

Republic: balanced except hapiness penalty for not having
agree with loocas that it's main asset is avoiding the hapiness penalty, altough I also like the +3 happy. The problem is that this penalty is so big that it makes republic mandatory once someone else is in republic.

Pacifism: a bit underpowered
+50% GPP pales a bit vs WW & support penalties

Religion: balanced

Nationhood: a bit underpowered

Social order: underpowered & under flavored
should lower civics upkeep costs (& inflation ?), should add a creativity/cultural drawback

Consumption: under flavored
should have more effect on cultural & economic activity but more drawbacks (maintenance & inflation)

liberty: balanced

crusade: underpowered
the production bonus should be increased, military units should be built with food surplus

slavery: balanced
suggestion: drop the +1 from quarry (inconsistent: why not mines ?)

arete: a bit overpowered
suggestion: remove GPP & support effect, add +1 from quaries for consistency with the mine bonus

military state: balanced
suggestion: add an XP bonus

serfdom: unfocussed
suggestion: choose either +50% improvement or -10%food/+20%prod

caste system: worthless

guilds: worthless

Decentralization: balanced

Agriculture: balanced
suggestion: drop the health bonus, and the hammer penalty which only becomes a micromanagement issue (farm placement)
disagree with westamastaflash. Agriculture's power depends on the difficulty level: at the higher ones you don't care that much about food because you're limited by hapiness. Agriculture can become powerful when using vampires and/or when combined with slavery/whipping, but that's OK because it requires a strategic decision.

Conquest: balanced
suggestion: for flavor, replace +2XP and food prod effects with a decrease of riot time when capturing cities

Mercantilism: worthless

Foreign Trade: balanced
suggestion: only +1 trade route/city, drop the rest; maybe add a trade route yield bonus

Guardian of Nature: a bit overpowered
suggestion: drop the -10% prod penalty and grove bonus, but add a maintenance penalty

Sacrifice the weak: balanced but a bit odd
suggestion: drop GPP & health penalties and coin/science bonus, change to 1 unhappy penalty per X population

Fend for themselves: a bit irrelevant
suggestion: change to 1 unhappy penalty per Y population, I also like Sureshot's XP bonus idea (make it relevant = +2, though)

Basic care: oK

Protect the meek: a bit underpowered
suggestion: add +1 happy per Y population

Public healers: too underpowered for the cost
suggestion: lower upkeep or raise health & happy bonus, or add a generic happy bonus per X population

No School System: OK

Apprenticeship: out of flavor
should grant %prod bonus

Military Discipline: a bit underpowered
suggestion: add XP bonus or Sureshot's garrisson happiness, but cap it

Religious Discipline: a bit odd
suggestion: replace +10% science with +10% gold, or XP bonus to disciple units...

Scholarship: a bit underpowered for the tech level
suggestion: increase % science bonus
 
I just had a bit of a crazy idea. For one thing, the growth rate of cottages/etc needs to be adjusted for the long game cycle of FfH, and then maybe some more significant perks can come from later civics. Here's the crazy thought, though: What if farms, and even workshops acted like cottages in that they became more potent after being utilized for a number of turns. In turn, later civics could provide certain bonuses to the later version of these improvements, and perhaps earlier civics (like agriculture) could provide bonuses to the earlier version, but not the later.

Let's say for example farm1 (I'll forgo the tedium of using what I might identify each level as, and just use numbers) provides the standard +1 food. Agriculture remains the same, but only effects farm1. After 50 or so turns, farm1 becomes farm2 (with another +1 food), and if agriculture is in use, this has little effect. After 100 turns, farm2 turns into farm3 and might then be effected by aristocracy, which farm2 is not affected by.

civic n/a agri. arist.
farm1 +1f +2f +1f
farm2 +2f +2f +2f
farm3 +3f +3f +2f+2c

similar things could be done with workshops, and even towns, such that actually developing your country side is more effective than just building up whatever works best at the moment. this also creates more incentive to prevent (or enact) pillaging. A bit more tweaking of the tech based improvement bonuses would probably also be needed.
 
Am I mad, or does Military State only make sense with Pacifism :confused:

+14 free MILITARY units - not units.

Is this what was intended?
 
You have a mighty military so you don't get attacked as all civs are afraid of you. Thus you can keep the peace.
 
I don't understand your logic : you feel that going republic is bad so you need a compensation. for that you propose that the unhappy are more important when you don't have rep ???
that means only that you are forced earlier to go toward rep.
the complain is that republic is not a really good civic by itself. it's only bonus is to negates a malus. increasing the malus will not make republic better, just less avoidable. it would remove freedom for players.
a solution would be that republic is made more powerful or with less penalty if you don't have it..

Republic not really a good civic ?
+25% GPP
+3 happy in X cities
+20% culture

If this is NOT a good civic what can you say about Fend for Themselves ???

You have a mighty military so you don't get attacked as all civs are afraid of you. Thus you can keep the peace.

Actually Pacifism strives to keep peace among peoples by not making use of weaponry/violence. Ghandi was pacifist, not Ariel Sharon.
 
Random bonuses just aren't as useful as focused mechanics. GK allows for a supercity, aristocracy allows you to run a farm based economy, city states mitigates the effects of a sprawling empire. The republic bonuses seem unfocused and arbitrary.

I'd like to see it changed to a boost to cottage based economies. Mabye, +1 hammer/town +2 gold/town, +100% war warriness, diplomacy penalty with non-republic civs. Maybe a GPP bonus too, depending on balance.

[edit] And yes, with the exception of sacrifice the weak that whole line is somewhat lame, but if you're not AV you only have the choice between lame civics, so it's not as big a deal (although I'd certainly like to see it made more intersting).
 
Military State is probably the civic I would most like to be changed. It has 2 main weaknesses
1) -25% Culture is really big. I even don't agree that it should give a culture penalty since culture is not only made up by painters and musicists.
2) it gives a monetary boost by allowing you to not pay as much your army, too bad that its maintenance cost (High) cancels this bonus if not even transforms it in a malus.

I think civics should mostly give boni. They should rarely if ever give any malus because the malus is already that by choosing this civic, you cannot use the other civics in the branch. This said if this civic MUST give a culture penalty then I would make it a 10% max, and lower the maintenance cost to Medium at most.


One other thing I would like about civics is having some tied to some others in other branches. For example, unlike zxcvbnm I don't think you should be able to run Pacifism and Military State at the same time, nor Republic and Slavery, and so on. Just removing all penalties from civics but tying them this way would make the choices more interesting/strategical and require more planning and specialization.
 
antic greek city-state Athene ran republic with slavery, the early Rome also did.
republic is not equivalent to liberty !!!
just that the chief is somehow elected by authorized people...

But I agree for pacifism and military state, maybe change the names ?
 
My pacifism thing was irony
 
I just recently discovered the power of trade routes & foreign trade. Especially when playing as the Lanun. I've had cities w/ trade routes generating ~ 60-70 commerce per turn just from trade. Foreign trade rocks.
 
Couldn't it be that...

Pacifism + Military Discipline = Shaolin-style zen martial arts

(and yes, I'm aware that's a pop culture creation that's not accurate but it works fine in a fantasy world)
 
Is it valuable to look at this from the other side? As a thought tool, I tried to ignore the current list of civics and discuss what civics would make the game better. What are the play styles that civics should be encouraging?

Cool things I can do now with civics:
Choose between a large empire and a compact one.
Save myself if I overextend my empire.
Build a farm-centric strategy.
Prep for war.
Gain rewards for my towns having my religion.
Gain specific rewards for certain religions or civs.

Cool things I’d like to be able to do with civics:
Save myself when I have a happiness crisis (other than war weariness). There are a few late-game options that can do this (Republic), but I often have happiness problems relatively early, and I wish there was more I could do in that case. Having an early civic that reduced unhappy faces (without adding happy ones) would be great.

Differentiate my military strategy (magic/melee/disciple/archery/horses). I like the above idea about giving +XP to specific types of units.

Focus on magic. Scholarship is good, but I want more ways to emphasize my magical expertise.

Focus on not magic. It’d be interesting to have one or more civic whose penalty is denying magic. Maybe tie it in with some of the religiously fanatically civics? Reduce the rate at which magic units gain XP? Forbid any spell casting? Turn off certain types of mana?

More options on how to rush production. Currently, it’s either octopus or gold. I like the concept of limiting whipping to an evil religion, but I wish there was more variety within the Labor civics. Is it possible to allow other ways to hurry production? Spend culture? Spend happiness? Spend research?

More special terrain upgrade strategies beyond the farm path. The farm path (Aristocracy / Agriculture) is great in that it carves out a unique playstyle. I’ve heard rumors there used to be a cottage-based civic strategy that got overpowered. I think it’s worth bringing that idea back, or building a similar mine-based strategy. More ways to encourage radically different playstyles.

Gain an early boost to research. Scholarship is good, but it’s a late game civic. I’d like to have something I can choose to turbo boost my research at the cost of other things.

Specific issues:
(skipping civics where I have no problems)

Theocracy: The conflicting happiness bonus and penalty often make me avoid this, since I often build big empires that tend to have a few extra religions. I don't want to bother computing how much it would help versus hinder, so I don't bother. Would there be a way to minimize the religious competition penalty? Maybe switching it to a culture penalty instead of directly counteracting the bonus I’m aiming for?

Theocracy: The XP bonus seems like a big part of this one, but it doesn’t seem particularly flavorful. Why would Theocracy make my military units smarter? Would it be possible to reduce maintenance in cities that have your religion? Or just do a blanket reduction in costs for military production?

Republic: I agree with others who find penalizing other players annoying. I don't see an easy way around that without gutting the civic, so I suppose I agree with the above call to just remove it and replace it with something else. Another late-game happiness boost, but maybe with a magic feel or tied to a specific terrain upgrade strategy?

Pacifism: I like the concept of having a civic that rewards you for avoiding war at all costs. But I find GPP too specific of a reward. Especially early in the game when Pacifism could be an interesting option, I don’t usually have lots of GPP to make this matter. This could be a place to add an early science boost, or maybe to remove unhappy faces.

Pacifism: The gold cost of this one always scare me away. I don’t even know how penalizing it really is in all games, but I’ve seen it be bad some times, and most times I’m too lazy to bother digging into the numbers to see exactly how bad it would be, so I just assume it’s bad and avoid it. Remove this, or change it to a different penalty.

Social Order: Slightly better version of Nationhood. Civics that require a certain religion or civ have more pressure to be interesting, and this one doesn’t make that cut. Give it more a feel for the religion. I don’t play the Order much, so I’m not the right person to say what that feel should be. Free promotions (in cities with The Order) are always fun.

Consumption: The Medium upkeep seems at odds with the goal of getting lots of money. I’d reduce or remove the happiness gains (which are off of the main goal of this civic as I see it) and reduce the upkeep. Maybe even go further and add a bigger penalty (to health?) or but make the money gains equivalently bigger.

Liberty: This one seems a little torn between the specialist playstyle and the culture playstyle, but it seems to manage to balance between the two relatively well, so I suppose it works.

Arete: Boring. Not enough focus. Compare to the interestingness of Guardian of Nature. I suggest turning this one into a mines-focused strategy. Remove the other bonuses. Add a food to mines, which would really make them useful, maybe too useful. Or something of equivalently radical nature. Increase the chance of finding resources when you dig a mine to something crazy? (although that steps on Earth Mana’s toes)

Guilds and Caste System: These seem to overlap a bit. The concept of having multiple avenues with which to exploit specialists doesn’t bother me, but there are many other interesting strategies that get no civic at all, and these already combine with civics in other trees. Maybe remove one of these entirely and replace it with a magic boosting civic? Or something that focuses on certain military strategies? Or a terrain-focused civic?

Mercantilism and Foreign Trade: I often avoid both just because I either don’t bother or can’t focus my economy on internal or external trade. Building trade enhancing buildings takes time, and I have no guarantee at the start of that that the costs will balance out. Which means I often don’t have any Economy civic choices and am stuck with Agriculture by default. Is there a way to balance out the gold benefits of these civics so they’re less likely to be harshly penalizing? I’d be more willing to experiment with trade-light or trade-heavy strategies if I had some confidence that I’d end up with a net gain. But I’m not entirely sure how to guarantee that.

Compassion: I like the moral spectrum here, and how it plays out in foreign relations. Good stuff. I just wish the later versions were more interesting. Adding a High or even a Medium upkeep civic is often crippling, so I often don’t bother with Protect the Meek or Public Healers. Adding more of a custom benefit to these two might make them more interesting. Could Public Healers start some military units out with the Medic promotion? Could Protect the Meek increase the cultural defensive bonus of cities (more civilians manning the gates)? Or give a slight boost to science (Stephen Hawkings is free to think with others caring for him)?

Military Discipline: The XP bonus from Apprenticeship is often more useful than the bonuses this gives, especially when the upkeep is considered. Maybe make Apprenticeship only give XP to certain units, and make this one give XP to all? Or have this one give a free promotion to all/most military units? Free Combat I if you have a Training Yard?

Religious Discipline: I kinda like the science bonus here flavor-wise, but gameplay-wise it seems to step on Scholarship’s toes. Maybe consider switching the science bonus out to another one of the religious civics (Theocracy? Religion? Arete?), which also allows synergy with Scholarship if you can maintain a religion.

Oh, and I agree with the people who have poked holes in the naming choices. And the ideas for more restrictions on which civs/religions can choose which civics.
 
How about pacifism causing unhappiness with military, and extra +50%:gp:
 
very interesting analysis...
I hope Kael or someone will read it.
some of your proposal/analysis I do not agree with... but with so long a text, you won't find anybody agreeing with the whole thing so it's okay.

you've got 2 pacifism civics...
and Consumption is (IIRC) that your people are consuming a lot... so they are happy... it doesn't mean they give more money to the state ... think western economics... states are richer due to more market, but mostly because of more pop, the civic is in fact equivalent to a public bath ... -1health, +3Happy... and you add some gold and some costs....
 
antic greek city-state Athene ran republic with slavery, the early Rome also did.
republic is not equivalent to liberty !!!
just that the chief is somehow elected by authorized people...

It is in the game implementation (why the penalty to happyness if you don't adopt it, otherwise ?). But it was probably a bad example, I agree, though I hope you caught the sense of the proposal.
 
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