Civic Feedback Requested

[zxcvbnm]

The people know about the opportunity of getting to affect the decision making so they want it although it might be just a small part of the population who are legally citizens.

 

[onedreamer]

Then almost any gov. civic should give unhappiness if you don't adopt Republic, plus some other civics, etc...

 

[zxcvbnm]

But it should be restricted by the amount of civil liberties: if they wouldn't be free to vote they don't feel like going to revolt for republic. So if you have freedoms the people want to vote their leaders, if you don't, they don't.

 

[onedreamer]

So if they have freedom in voting (Republic), they shouldn't be happy with Slavery, which is what I said... or not ?

 

[zxcvbnm]

If they are slaves they won't be let vote so they don't want republic more than despotism

 

[Senethro]

Page 2 was the best page of this thread. Maksim, lucius and nealhunt made every point I'd wish to.

Just for my own input, I like Republic the way it is now. High upkeep is punishing, so Republic is a good way for small efficient empires to be aggressive and cause unrest in large aggressive ones. If the CPU players could "know" whos causing unrest in their empires and consider aggression as a solution rather than switching to Republic themselves, I think it would spice the game up somewhat.

My other favorite ideas have been Military Discipline gets happiness from units and Fend for Themselves gives some kind of low XP bonus.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Then almost any gov. civic should give unhappiness if you don't adopt Republic, plus some other civics, etc...

Thats how it is: If someone has a republic and you have something else, you have unhappiness.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Civic combinations do not have to make sense in the world that we live in right now. The only "realism" that a mature fantasy world has to follow is for the reaction of its people to hypothetical civic combinations. For example, it is not "realistic" for a tundra world, but we can infer how a tundra world culture would be like by looking at how the people living in such areas in our own real world live, and then extend it to the entire planet.

That, and Calavante's example of "republic" and "slavery" in the Greek city states. Universal sufferage and slavery aren't that incompatible, unfortunately. You can vote segments of the population into slavery, because they aren't "legitimate voters". That's why I like the distinguishment between universal sufferage and emancipation in Civ4 regular, and the "unhapiness penalty" would only be granted to the emancipation civic.

Now that I think about it, maybe the liberty civic should be the one giving that unhapiness penalty instead. In addition, perhaps the liberty civic cannot be adopted by evil civs (therefore excluding sacrifice the weak).

 

[xienwolf]

I'd just be happy if the effect didn't stack. As far as I can tell you get 1 unhappy for every civ that runs republic while you do not. Meaning on a Huge map you can wind up with 14 unhappy just for sticking to City States real easily

 

[zxcvbnm]

Only 14? I was playing a small map with Kuriotates, 3 other empires and got 20 from not having republic

I think that the stack effect is to make group pressure significant, as everyone else adopts republic your people don't want to be the least "free" in the world.

 

[Caradoc]

I'd like to have civics that accelerate the awarding of EPs for Disciple and Arcane units.

I'd also like to see some social costs to Slavery, such as chance of sabotage or a slave revolt.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Civics definately need to have the ability to give free xp for specific unitcombat types, and maybe also based on the specific religion of a given unit (theocracy and religious discipline could give free xp to disciples and to units of their religion, but could mean less xp for the units of other religions, and have no boost for other units).

They should also be able to change the yields of each different specialist types separately. (so for instance, Arete could make engineers produce more gold, Guardian of nature could boost bards' culture boost, and a Council of Esus civic could make priests and merchants generate espionage points) Also, granting free xp per specific specialist type would be very nice (specialists can already grant free xp, but I think that civic should be able to alter this value. Imagine is Social Order granted +1 per military unit garrisoned in the city, +1 xp per priest. It would go from the worst civ to one of the best instantly, and would fit well flovorwise)

 

[xienwolf]

+1 xp per priest could be far too overpowered/exploitable though. the turn before you complete production of a military unit, you could swap all citizens to priest (using unlimited priest of course) and get a HUGE exp boost and at worst maybe lose 1 population in the city to starvation.

 

[westamastaflash]

+1 xp per priest could be far too overpowered/exploitable though. the turn before you complete production of a military unit, you could swap all citizens to priest (using unlimited priest of course) and get a HUGE exp boost and at worst maybe lose 1 population in the city to starvation.

I could see this as a problem. How about +2 xp for Courthouse, Basicila, and Religious Buildings?

 

[Calavente]

or adding a virtual xp counter..
each turn of production, each priest gives Xvirtual xp per hammer invested in unit... then XPgiven to unit is : xp from building + civic + total virtual XP/total hammer cost,.

thus as for gpp, is 2 priest (X=1) were present for the whole production of unit you would get 2xp, if you build your unit in 4 turns, then have 4 priests only in last turn : 1xp is added... rounded up !!

the issue is adding the counter !! and assigning +X value to virtual counter to
a specialist + civic combo !!

hard enough to make, but hard to exploit IMO

 

[onedreamer]

If they are slaves they won't be let vote so they don't want republic more than despotism

bah, this is really getting ridiculous. If slaves are still people (ie: they have a brain) and they live in a nation with Republic, where other ppl have liberties, they are obviously more likely to revolt than if they lived in a nation with Despotism where there is pretty much no liberty for anyone.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Of course, slavery in FfH was (I'm not sure if it still, is because in Shadow it is not OO specific) then slavery would be combined with Mind Stapling . Sure they still have a brain, but their masters are in control of what they think.

 

[zxcvbnm]

bah, this is really getting ridiculous. If slaves are still people (ie: they have a brain) and they live in a nation with Republic, where other ppl have liberties, they are obviously more likely to revolt than if they lived in a nation with Despotism where there is pretty much no liberty for anyone.

But they revolt to get their civil rights, not only to be legitimate voters but slaves still

 

[tharg]

Military State is probably the civic I would most like to be changed. It has 2 main weaknesses
1) -25% Culture is really big. I even don't agree that it should give a culture penalty since culture is not only made up by painters and musicists.
2) it gives a monetary boost by allowing you to not pay as much your army, too bad that its maintenance cost (High) cancels this bonus if not even transforms it in a malus.

Ops! I don’t think I made my earlier point clear enough. Military state gives you free support for Military units.

Check out http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/unit_maintenance.php

There are two sorts of unit support:
Unit support, which depends on the total number of units.
Military unit support, which is zero unless you have the pacifism civic.

So the reduced maintenance part of the military state only applies when you have the pacifism civic. In fact Military sate is very good chioce if you want to have a large army while getting the 50% GP boost, but fairly useless otherwise.

 

[onedreamer]

Tharg, have a second read at the link you yourself posted. Military unit support in no way is zero unless you have Pacifism. You wish
Anyways, I wasn't replying to you post. The reduced maintenance bonus of Military State is cancelled by its High maintenance costs, that's what I said. Generally, if I just stick to the starting Low maintenance civic in this branch, I will spend as much as if I adopted Military State to support +X military units because of the much higher civic upkeep, unless I am a very little civ (edit, correction: not even, since the +X depends on your civ population). The problem is that you also get a whopping -25% to culture.