I don't know. I don't think we need to do this for right now.
Civics Improvements Suggestions
- Thread starter os79
- Start date
I don't know. I don't think we need to do this for right now.
Here's a thought about Barter. I think the only ability that Barter really needs is the -33% gold and science. I think the "No Corporations" and "No Foreign Connections" abilities are flavorful but not meaningful. I think it is extremely likely that players will have at least reached Currency and the Coinage civic, if not Guilds and the Guilds civic, by the time Corporations are ready to spread. Likewise, foreign connectedness commerce is hard to come by that early in the game, and any bonus commerce would also be subject to the Barter penalties, so I don't see a reason to forbid it either.
Did anyone notice that Communalism has +40% military unit production? This seems really out of place. I can understand a regular production bonus, but a military bonus doesn't seem right here. Maybe we should go from +5% to +10% regular production -- it's supposed to be an efficient society -- and drop the military production completely.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I was just thinking about the same in the past days. It's description says something about "looking out for common interest rather than personal" or something, so I can force myself that it means that they are more willing to do military service...
But I agree it's better to ax it.
jackelgull
An aberration of nature
Well, the Soviet Union's control over the economy allowed them to invest more heavily in military goods and production over civilian investment which is what made them such a fearsome land power.
That's supposed to be the effects of Single Party (Rule), not Communalism. Single Party is supposed to cover modern totalitarianism from just about any angle.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I wonder if Communalism need Corporations have no effect? How about a +50% Tax Levy instead.
Nor no corporations we already have Planned.
I would also cut the yield and commerce modifiers and leave only the +1
and +1 free specialist.
Nor no corporations we already have Planned.
I would also cut the yield and commerce modifiers and leave only the +1
and +1 free specialist.I wonder if Communalism need Corporations have no effect? How about a +50% Tax Levy instead.
Nor no corporations we already have Planned.
I would also cut the yield and commerce modifiers and leave only the +1
That might be going a bit too far. I like the yield modifiers but I think the espionage modifier is probably too strong.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
What's with Globalism? Is it supposed to give -10% 
and 
? I can see the latter, but not really the former...
and ? I can see the latter, but not really the former...What's with Globalism? Is it supposed to give -10%
It's supposed to be that way so it's not the go-to civic for Culture victories. I thought of the culture penalty as a way of saying your civilization is so multicultural that nothing ever solidifies and everything keeps changing.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Now, I know that's a fairly contentious topic, but wouldn't it be the reverse? At least, remove the penalty itself, I guess?
It's sheer mechanics. My thoughts are that the other benefits of Cosmopolitan are so good for cultural victories (+3 relations and -20% food for cities to grow) that I want it to not be a slam-dunk choice.
Since we're looking to cut down on the production gains from civics, should we reduce Despotism's unit production bonus?
I'm currently planning to give Despotism the military happiness bonus and overcrowding penalty from Monarchy. At the same time, Despotism is also going to lose the extra unhappiness from your tax rate. With Despotism's penalty to city growth, that makes cities smaller and the military police effect more effective overall. Once you reach double-digit city size, unless you tie up a lot of units on garrison duty, you'll have more unhappiness from additional overcrowding than happiness from garrisons.
But I think it is counterproductive to give you both a bonus for building military units and making it easier to build them at the same time.
I'm currently planning to give Despotism the military happiness bonus and overcrowding penalty from Monarchy. At the same time, Despotism is also going to lose the extra unhappiness from your tax rate. With Despotism's penalty to city growth, that makes cities smaller and the military police effect more effective overall. Once you reach double-digit city size, unless you tie up a lot of units on garrison duty, you'll have more unhappiness from additional overcrowding than happiness from garrisons.
But I think it is counterproductive to give you both a bonus for building military units and making it easier to build them at the same time.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Back on this topic:
-What's the tradition in your nation?
-In my land it's traditionally the nobles make the decisions. We have a strong aristocracy. And yours?
-Oh, my country is traditionally theocratic the clergy ruling over us. And you? - turning to a third guy.
-Errr... we have traditions...
I think Patriarchy is better because it clearly tells that in the earliest societies rule was connected to family lines: Younger people were always subject to older ones.
EDIT: Of course it's all up to you. It's just my point of view as a player
I don't like Tradition as a civic name because it doesn't tell the player anything about the elite, ruling class.
-What's the tradition in your nation?
-In my land it's traditionally the nobles make the decisions. We have a strong aristocracy. And yours?
-Oh, my country is traditionally theocratic the clergy ruling over us. And you? - turning to a third guy.
-Errr... we have traditions...
I think Patriarchy is better because it clearly tells that in the earliest societies rule was connected to family lines: Younger people were always subject to older ones.
EDIT: Of course it's all up to you. It's just my point of view as a player
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I think we are overinflating health from welfare civics. Here's a breakdown.
But I think we can flatten the curve out. I think we should take away one of Charity's bonuses. I'm leaning towards cutting the Healer's Hut bonus and leaving the Bazaar. Church could be lowered by 1. I think Private should lose its innate health completely. It can keep the bonus from Foundation. Subsidized and Socialized should be reduced by 2 each. This will make cities more likely to hit their health cap.
- Charity is worth +3 health. Healer's Hut/Doctor's Office gets +1, Bazaar gets +1, and the Plague Hospital building gives +1.
- Church is worth +4 health: +3 from State Religion, +1 from Foundling Hospital. The additional +1 was not supposed to be kept.
- Public Works isn't worth any health.
- Private is worth +3 health: +2 innately and +1 from Foundation.
- Subsidized is worth +8 health; +6 innately and +2 from Social Services.
- Socialized is worth +4 health by itself, an additional +1/+2 from Doctor's Office/Hospital, and then cuts off 15% of population unhealth when you build a Welfare Office.
- Superhuman cancels all unhealth from population.
- Paradise cancels all unhealth from buildings and the Park Arcology cancels all unhealth from population. It also gives +3 health by itself.
But I think we can flatten the curve out. I think we should take away one of Charity's bonuses. I'm leaning towards cutting the Healer's Hut bonus and leaving the Bazaar. Church could be lowered by 1. I think Private should lose its innate health completely. It can keep the bonus from Foundation. Subsidized and Socialized should be reduced by 2 each. This will make cities more likely to hit their health cap.
GreedyManul
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
- Messages
- 292
As I sifted through the civics trying to balance each and every one of them (while using ZN's civic reforms, mind you), I agree wholeheartedly. Welfare civics are grossly overflowing with bonuses, and cutting a lot of them would prove to be very useful.
By the way, what's the difference between Subsidized and Socialized? They look way too similar to me.
When it comes to civics, I'm beginning to better appreciate BTS's choice of starting from zero and giving each civic a few bonuses rather than try to work out every possible effect of a civic on every facet of your civilization -- at least that's how it seems to me.
I also would like to look at better differentiating Socialized and Subsidized myself, as well as separating them from Private. All 3 currently have a health bonus, some kind of happiness bonus (Private gives +1 from Arena/Stadium/Zero-G and +1 from Theatre/Movie Theatre/Holotheatre, Subsidized gives +1 from Hospital/School/University, and Socialized gives +4 in the largest cities), and some kind of science bonus (+10% for Private, +15% for Subsidized/Socialized). Then there are some weird factors; Private gives -20% corporate maintenance, Subsidized gets +10% Great Person, +15% corporate maintenance, and -20% production, and Socialized gets +15% city maintenance and corporate maintenance.
What I would like to see is Socialized be the expensive but effective option, Private be the cheap and benefit you in some other ways, and Subsidized be the middle-of-the-road option. Cutting Private's health is a good place to start.
I think there's some more room for consolidating bullet points. Slavery gives innate unhappiness and unhappiness from slave specialists; I wonder if it would be better to use unhappiness from slaves alone. How many slave specialists can players get during the game? Corporate has both all-city unhappiness and largest-city unhappiness. I don't like having both on one civic.
State Church and Free Church could stand to cut a couple of bullets. I'm not sure I really like Free Church's building bonus or State Church's big gold bonuses. I've barely looked at Intolerant. I think Intolerant might have too much.
State Church and Free Church could stand to cut a couple of bullets. I'm not sure I really like Free Church's building bonus or State Church's big gold bonuses. I've barely looked at Intolerant. I think Intolerant might have too much.
I'm looking at ways to differentiate the three mid-game Welfare civics of Private, Subsidized, and Socialized. These are the mechanics I am leaning towards; I haven't really crunched any numbers yet.
Private would focus on low upkeep and I think it should be the only Welfare civic (except for the Transhuman ones) that gives a bonus to Science. I think it would also be interesting if it gave a small boost to Culture as well. It would be the only Welfare civic to do this, so if you were to run for a Cultural victory, you would have to decide between Private and another civic that would offer you building bonuses or more health which would give you bigger cities.
Socialized would be the high-upkeep, "care for everyone" civic. This would make it the civic that would not only have the most +health of any Welfare civic, but also the only Welfare civic to have "cities require less food to grow" as a bonus.
Subsidized would stay at medium-upkeep with more bonuses than Charity/Church/Private to compensate for the increased upkeep. I'm not sure Subsidized needs the -production penalty or the +Great Person bonus.
That's enough to go on for right now.
Private would focus on low upkeep and I think it should be the only Welfare civic (except for the Transhuman ones) that gives a bonus to Science. I think it would also be interesting if it gave a small boost to Culture as well. It would be the only Welfare civic to do this, so if you were to run for a Cultural victory, you would have to decide between Private and another civic that would offer you building bonuses or more health which would give you bigger cities.
Socialized would be the high-upkeep, "care for everyone" civic. This would make it the civic that would not only have the most +health of any Welfare civic, but also the only Welfare civic to have "cities require less food to grow" as a bonus.
Subsidized would stay at medium-upkeep with more bonuses than Charity/Church/Private to compensate for the increased upkeep. I'm not sure Subsidized needs the -production penalty or the +Great Person bonus.
That's enough to go on for right now.
I think that it doesn't make much sense that private would give a science bonus (under subsidized and socialized investigation is also done) and even less a culture bonus. What I would suggest is that private give 0.5 health per corporation in a city
