Civics in FfH2

[Daris]

Another way the God King stuff worked in our human history.. is that the King was the only one with connection to the gods.. and I do not see how that could not work in the FFH environment... just it could have a very negative effect of making your civilization not have the ability to use priests.. ((If that is possible..))

But I very much love God King the way it is..

 

[apotheoser]

Another way the God King stuff worked in our human history.. is that the King was the only one with connection to the gods.. and I do not see how that could not work in the FFH environment... just it could have a very negative effect of making your civilization not have the ability to use priests.. ((If that is possible..))

But I very much love God King the way it is..

That's not what God King means. You're talking about something totally different.

 

[Gigaz]

I agree that civics should in some way be unique and I have some ideas for "real unique" civics:

Warlord, government civic:
-no from tiles
-allows slavery and drafting
Allows arcane units to cast "consume land":
-can only be cast in own terretory on a tile that is "good enough"
-destroys modernisations, ressources and cities, turns the tile into desert. Creates one unit.

Supremacy, cultural value:
+1 from each vassal (2 instead of 1), +1 from each population point in vassal cities
-50% war weariness

Adventure, cultural value:
+2 from each dungeon, graveyard, barrows and ruins
-living units gain the hero promotion if they win battle and if the odds were lower then 15%
+10% military production

Illusions of grandeur, labor:
+100% for wonders
+50% growth

Cleptocracy, labor:
requires Esus
-100%, -50%
-gain access to every ressource from each civilisation that you have open borders with
+the effect from the Eyes and Ears network

trade ideas, economy:
-requires Empyrion
-grants the adaptive trait
-gain access to every unique unit and unique building from each civilisation you have open borders with

 

[TheJopa]

Which is exactly why you shouldn't be able to run God-King with specific lore-based religions? Or switch between various state religions with God-King enabled? "Oh now I'm the reincarnation of Junil! Oh wait revolution, I'm the reincarnation of some Council of Esus thing!"

Maybe Lone Wolf is right. The whole concept is pretty screwed up in regards to Fall from Heaven lore. It should just be renamed "Divine Right" or something like you suggest. But preferably a name that sort of explains why the capital would get such a big bonus.

Hmm... I always disliked God King civic. I always thought it should be replaced by Absolute Monarchy or Monarchy. And IF the civic shall remain, then it should provide religious boost. And we have theocracy for that.

On the other side, it could work with pagan civs, it could work (WARNING: UNIQUE MECHANIC!) if adopting God King started and adopted new religion in your capital named 'Personality Cult' that you could then spread in other cities and build her temples and priests.

Also, it could work thematically with some religions, as Kilmorph had Umberguard that acted as her manifestation on Erebus. So Umberguard could be God King for RoK civ.

 

[Honor]

Don't get dragged away by semantics, IMO. Focusing on the gameplay aspects of the civics is much more productive.

 

[Breunor]

Don't get dragged away by semantics, IMO. Focusing on the gameplay aspects of the civics is much more productive.

I agree. I also think too much has been made about the semantics. We should think about what we want the civics to do, come up with a name later.


Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[apotheoser]

Don't get dragged away by semantics, IMO. Focusing on the gameplay aspects of the civics is much more productive.

I think you get a better game when the gameplay aspects are in unison with the story/semantic/themes. There's always two parts to a game like Civilization: narrative and mechanics. Obviously, each needs to stand on its own foundation. But in the best games, the narrative and the gameplay mechanics are not only well-developed alone, but make sense together.

 

[Verily]

Actually, I was thinking. What if instead of a penalty, God-King didn't allow a state religion? After all, if you're the God King... who are these Fellowship of Leaves heretics? Run 'em out of the city!

Edit: Hmm, it seems this wouldn't work with bStateReligion, since that only checks if a civic allows a state religion. There isn't a tag that makes a civic forbid state religions even if another allows it, is there?

There must be. Otherwise Free Religion wouldn't work in vanilla BtS. That would be a really cool effect for God-King, actually, flavorful and reasonable. That's the kind of innovation the civics are currently missing.

 

[apotheoser]

There must be. Otherwise Free Religion wouldn't work in vanilla BtS. That would be a really cool effect for God-King, actually, flavorful and reasonable. That's the kind of innovation the civics are currently missing.

Read further on. Free Religion does not do what you think it does.

 

[Verily]

Modifications on apotheoser's suggestions:

Government
Despotism
Medium upkeep
Default government civic
No bonuses or penalties

God-King - Available with Mysticism
High upkeep
+100% and +100% in capital
No in capital
No state
+25% maintenance costs from distance to palace

Aristocracy - Available with Code of Laws
Medium upkeep
New Melee, ranged, and mounted units receive +4 XP
+100% Growth to Ancient Tower, Fort, Castle
+1 , +1 from Castle, Citadel
Access to Royal Guard unit

Magisterium - Available with Knowledge of the Ether
Medium upkeep
+1 from Mage Guild and Alchemy Lab
New Arcane units receive +4 XP

Theocracy - Available with Priesthood
Medium upkeep
No non-state spread
Unlimited priests
Cities with state construct buildings +25% faster
+25% Disciple unit production

Republic - Available with Taxation
Low upkeep
Free bonus civilization trait [selected as with Adaptive, lost if leaving Republic]
-50% maintenance cost from number of cities
-25% maintenance cost from distance to palace
+100% War
penalty to civs without Republic

Legal
Barbarism
Medium Upkeep
Starting Legal civic
No bonuses or penalties

Right of the Strong - Available with Warfare
Medium upkeep
+1 per city
No resistance in captured cities
+100% from pillaging
+10% military unit production

Vassalage - Available with Feudalism
Low upkeep
Can Draft units
+1 from Farms
-1 Trade Routes per city

Bureaucracy - Available with Currency
High upkeep
Can spend gold to rush production
+5% and +5% in all cities

Constitution - Available with Taxation
Low upkeep
+3 per city
+1 free specialist per city

Labor
Tribalism
Low upkeep
Default Labor civic
No bonuses or penalties

Forced Labor - Available with Masonry
High upkeep
Buildings produced with
+1 from Mine, Quarry

Slavery - Available with Way of the Wicked
Medium upkeep
Can sacrifice population to finish production in a city
+25% chance to create a slave from combat

Caste System - Available with Feudalism
Low upkeep
Unlimited artists, scientists
+1 and +2 per specialist
Workers build improvements +50% faster

Peasant Collective - Available with Mathematics
Medium upkeep
+1 , +1 from Watermill, Windmill
+1 , +1 from Lumbermill, Mine, Quarry

Guilds - Available with Guilds
Low upkeep
Unlimited merchants
+2 and +1 from Merchant, Great Merchant
+2 and +1 from Market


Mostly just streamlining, removing some things that would be hard/unbalanced to implement, added a new civic (Right of the Strong), replaced Free Cities with Constitution, dropped the OO-specific civic, and brought Slavery back.

 

[Verily]

Read further on. Free Religion does not do what you think it does.

Just use bStateReligion for all of the alternatives to God-King in the Government civic line, then. It doesn't need to be in a religion line.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I think you get a better game when the gameplay aspects are in unison with the story/semantic/themes.

Change the semantics, not the gameplay first. I'd rather change the name of the civic.

 

[Valkrionn]

Modifications on apotheoser's suggestions:

Right of the Strong - Available with Warfare
Medium upkeep
+1 per city
No resistance in captured cities
+100% from pillaging
+10% military unit production

I'd add in "Lose more population when capturing a city" to balance not having resistance.

Also, I'd like to see benefits to the starting civics, as currently you usually switch first chance you get.

Just use bStateReligion for all of the alternatives to God-King in the Government civic line, then. It doesn't need to be in a religion line.

Issue here is that civics in OTHER lines may enable religion.

 

[Verily]

I'd add in "Lose more population when capturing a city" to balance not having resistance.

I'm not sure no resistance is actually all that big a bonus as to need an extra penalty. Would you really stay in Right of the Strong just for no resistance when you could be in Bureaucracy or Constitution? Maybe removing the military production bonus would be better, makes it more streamlined anyway.

Also, I'd like to see benefits to the starting civics, as currently you usually switch first chance you get.

Something to keep in mind, anyway. I'm actually a little tempted to say that they should be removed and God-King, Right of the Strong and Forced Labor be made the defaults. It would make the decision to switch a lot more interesting and would fit the notion of highly centralized leader-cults emerging form the Age of Ice. Forced Labor might be tough for the AI to deal with in the very early game, though.

Issue here is that civics in OTHER lines may enable religion.

Then remove it from those. Or is it necessary for Sacrifice the Weak/Arete/Guardian of Nature to work?

 

[apotheoser]

Modifications on apotheoser's suggestions:

Government
Despotism
Medium upkeep
Default government civic
No bonuses or penalties

God-King - Available with Mysticism
High upkeep
+100% and +100% in capital
No in capital
No state
+25% maintenance costs from distance to palace

+100% seems like a lot. Especially on smaller maps, or with certain civilizations, you might never stop using God King. 75% would be the most I think would be appropriate, but probably closer to 50%.

Aristocracy - Available with Code of Laws
Medium upkeep
New Melee, ranged, and mounted units receive +4 XP
+100% Growth to Ancient Tower, Fort, Castle
+1 , +1 from Castle, Citadel
Access to Royal Guard unit

One issue: with current functionality I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish between town growth and castle growth, or if the tag that triggers double town growth even affects forts anyway.

Magisterium - Available with Knowledge of the Ether
Medium upkeep
+1 from Mage Guild and Alchemy Lab
New Arcane units receive +4 XP

Seems pretty weak compared to other civics. 1 science isn't much. I'd never use this.

Theocracy - Available with Priesthood
Medium upkeep
No non-state spread
Unlimited priests
Cities with state construct buildings +25% faster
+25% Disciple unit production

Pretty standard. Works for me.

Republic - Available with Taxation
Low upkeep
Free bonus civilization trait [selected as with Adaptive, lost if leaving Republic]
-50% maintenance cost from number of cities
-25% maintenance cost from distance to palace
+100% War
penalty to civs without Republic

This is one of the only civics left with -maintenance in your proposals, which basically means it'd become mandatory in the late game (unless inflation is disabled).

Also, I think that's a lot of bonuses to stack on one civic.

Legal
Barbarism
Medium Upkeep
Starting Legal civic
No bonuses or penalties

Right of the Strong - Available with Warfare
Medium upkeep
+1 per city
No resistance in captured cities
+100% from pillaging
+10% military unit production

The thing is, Barbarism basically is Right of the Strong (check out the Vanilla pedia entry for Barbarism if you want a longer explanation).

Vassalage - Available with Feudalism
Low upkeep
Can Draft units
+1 from Farms
-1 Trade Routes per city

How do you get +commerce for farms in Vassalage? I was thinking -commerce because the vassal basically gets to take his cut from the land that he's ruling. Is that what you're trying to do with the -minus trade route? Maybe -trade route yield would be more appropriate.

Bureaucracy - Available with Currency
High upkeep
Can spend gold to rush production
+5% and +5% in all cities

Interesting. The bonus to hammers and commerce seems too small to be important. I would only use this civic if I really needed to rush stuff, which is a weird standard. Otherwise the +commerce from farms in Aristocracy would always beat this.

Constitution - Available with Taxation
Low upkeep
+3 per city
+1 free specialist per city

Yeah, this sounds about right.

Labor
Tribalism
Low upkeep
Default Labor civic
No bonuses or penalties

Forced Labor - Available with Masonry
High upkeep
Buildings produced with
+1 from Mine, Quarry

Unfortunately building buildings with food is not really in the current functionality. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to add, I just don't know C++ or Python (yet).

Slavery - Available with Way of the Wicked
Medium upkeep
Can sacrifice population to finish production in a city
+25% chance to create a slave from combat

Should probably just merge the slave-taking with Forced Labor, and leave pop-rushing to the Ashen Veil civic.

Caste System - Available with Feudalism
Low upkeep
Unlimited artists, scientists
+1 and +2 per specialist
Workers build improvements +50% faster

Adding Happiness per specialist is also not in the current functionality, unfortunately.

Peasant Collective - Available with Mathematics
Medium upkeep
+1 , +1 from Watermill, Windmill
+1 , +1 from Lumbermill, Mine, Quarry

Mathematics seems too early for this civic, especially since it's one of the best ones. Maybe it should come in at Machinery since it radically alters the Improvement balance.

Guilds - Available with Guilds
Low upkeep
Unlimited merchants
+2 and +1 from Merchant, Great Merchant
+2 and +1 from Market

I think this is too narrow. I'm not sure anyone would ever use it.

Mostly just streamlining, removing some things that would be hard/unbalanced to implement, added a new civic (Right of the Strong), replaced Free Cities with Constitution, dropped the OO-specific civic, and brought Slavery back.

Some good advice, I think. Some of the stuff would still be hard to implement (ie, require editing python or .dlls).

 

[apotheoser]

Then remove it from those. Or is it necessary for Sacrifice the Weak/Arete/Guardian of Nature to work?

In FfH2, bStateReligion (which enables a State Religion) is 1 (enabled) on every Cultural Value and 0 (disabled) on every other civic. You could do it via Government civics instead, with God King at 0 and every other government civic at 1.

The issue would be that you are then effectively precluded from enabling bStateReligion in any other category. It's not directly an issue now, but if we wanted to do something else with bStateReligion in another category, we wouldn't be able to.

There is a workaround: in the version I'm tinkering with, I added bAgnostic to the GameInfoSchema for CivicInfos. In short, you could make it so that God King effectively gives you Agnostic. The problem then is getting God King to reflect that on the Civic screen.

Of course, this is the same problem with Republic. I don't know how you'd get Republic to say "Adaptive" on the Civics screen. And I'm not sure how Adaptive would actually interact with Republic in the current functionality. Yes, when you switch off Republic you'll lose Adaptive. But would you lose the thing you picked with Adaptive? I don't know, I haven't tested that yet.

 

[Verily]

I'm going to go through your comments in a bit, but first I have my own modifications for the second half.

Economy
Decentralization
Low upkeep
Default Economy civic
No bonuses or penalties

Alternatively, Agrarian Society is the default Economy civic and has no tech requirement:

Agrarian Society – Available with Calendar
Medium upkeep
+1 from Farms
-25% in all cities

Conquest – Available with Warfare
Medium upkeep
builds units
+2 XP per unit
+100% from pillaging, city conquest

Mercantilism – Available with Mercantilism [Kind of late, but the tech is there…]
Medium upkeep
No foreign trade routes
+3 per city

Open Markets – Available with Trade
No upkeep
+1 per city
Additional +1 in coastal cities
+1 from foreign trade routes [not sure if this can be implemented; maybe steal the bonus in Hearth and Home instead]

Guardians of Nature – Available with Hidden Paths
Medium upkeep
+5 in all cities
-1 from Watermill, Lumbermill, Mine, Quarry
+2 from Grove
+1 from Forest, Ancient Forest, Jungle
Requires Fellowship of Leaves


Cultural Values
Expediency
No upkeep
Default Cultural Value
No modifiers or penalties

Alternatively, Hearth and Home is the default cultural value and has no tech requirement:

Hearth and Home – Available with Festivals
No upkeep
+10%
+1 per luxury resource
-25% military production

Duty – Available with Bronze Working
No upkeep
+1 from Temple, Courthouse, Basilica
-25% maintenance costs

Glory – Available with Drama
Low upkeep
+25% production
Free Empower I promotion to new melee, ranged and mounted units

Knowledge – Available with Arcane Lore
Low upkeep
+10% from Library, Alchemist Lab
+1 from specialists

Arete – Available with Arete
Medium upkeep
+1 from Bard, Great Bard
+1 from Scientist, Great Scientist
+1 from Merchant, Great Merchant
+1 from Engineer, Great Engineer
+25%
Requires Runes of Kilmorph

Sacrifice the Weak – Available with Infernal Pact
Medium upkeep
Can sacrifice population to rush production
Citizens eat 1 instead of 2
No production
+4
Requires Ashen Veil

Justice – Available with Orders from Heaven
High upkeep
+1 per
penalty to civs without Justice
Requires Order

Diplomacy
Neutrality
No upkeep
Default Diplomacy
No modifiers or penalties

Undercouncil – Available with Deception
No upkeep
Enables the Undercouncil
Requires Neutral or Evil alignment

Overcouncil – Available with Honor
No upkeep
Enables the Overcouncil
Requires Neutral or Good alignment

Crusade – Available with Fanaticism [This makes them unable to be a part of the Overcouncil. Sounds right to me.]
High upkeep
No
No diplomacy while at war
Access to Demagogue unit
Can Draft units
Requires Bannor

Light of Truth – Available with Honor
No upkeep
Enables the Overcouncil
+1 vote in the Overcouncil
Free Perfect Sight promotion to new units
+2 diplomatic modifier with Good and Neutral leaders
Requires Empyrean

Veil of Secrecy – Available with Deception
No upkeep
Enables the Undercouncil
+1 vote in the Undercouncil
[Something else]
Requires Council of Esus

I’m not really sure that the Empyrean and Esus special civics are a good idea, though. Especially since I nixed the OO special civic.

 

[Verily]

+100% seems like a lot. Especially on smaller maps, or with certain civilizations, you might never stop using God King. 75% would be the most I think would be appropriate, but probably closer to 50%.

You're probably right. +50% seems a little on the weak side for no access to a state religion, though. On the other hand, were God-King the default government civic (no Despotism), that would work.

One issue: with current functionality I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish between town growth and castle growth, or if the tag that triggers double town growth even affects forts anyway.

Shouldn't be hard to fix, though. Hopefully.

Seems pretty weak compared to other civics. 1 science isn't much. I'd never use this.

The XP bonus to Arcane units is the main purpose. But you're right, it's probably weak. Maybe Mage Guilds and Alchemy Labs could reduce maintenance costs as well? (Is it possible for a civic to make a building do that?)

This is one of the only civics left with -maintenance in your proposals, which basically means it'd become mandatory in the late game (unless inflation is disabled).

Also, I think that's a lot of bonuses to stack on one civic.

Hmmm... True. Small maintenance bonuses could be tacked on to the others as well (as with my proposal for Magisterium).

The thing is, Barbarism basically is Right of the Strong (check out the Vanilla pedia entry for Barbarism if you want a longer explanation).

Aye. Which is why I think I like the idea of Right of the Strong being the default civic, dropping Barbarism. I also decided to drop the +100% from pillaging with Right of the Strong after getting to Conquest in the Economy civics, where it fits a lot better.

How do you get +commerce for farms in Vassalage? I was thinking -commerce because the vassal basically gets to take his cut from the land that he's ruling. Is that what you're trying to do with the -minus trade route? Maybe -trade route yield would be more appropriate.

I guess this is maybe more like Aristocracy, but the idea was that farms in a vassalized society produce most of the wealth. Probably not the best idea, though. One possibility is a maintenance bonus for the decentralization of power.

Interesting. The bonus to hammers and commerce seems too small to be important. I would only use this civic if I really needed to rush stuff, which is a weird standard. Otherwise the +commerce from farms in Aristocracy would always beat this.

I assume you meant Vassalage? Maybe the bonuses could be bumped up to +10% each. Too high and the civic becomes runaway powerful. I think it's a bit stronger than you give it credit for, though, in a large empire.

Unfortunately building buildings with food is not really in the current functionality. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to add, I just don't know C++ or Python (yet).

Sounds like something to work on

Should probably just merge the slave-taking with Forced Labor, and leave pop-rushing to the Ashen Veil civic.

I do feel as if Slavery is an importantly distinct labor form from Forced Labor. But it probably needs something else to be unique.

Adding Happiness per specialist is also not in the current functionality, unfortunately.

That's fine; I just copied it from your proposal. Maybe just drop that and re-add unlimited merchants (since I'll tweak Guilds, below).

Mathematics seems too early for this civic, especially since it's one of the best ones. Maybe it should come in at Machinery since it radically alters the Improvement balance.

It definitely makes things very different, but I don't want any civic to be available too late. Civics which come near the end of the tech tree have no reason to be used. I would say Engineering, but that tech has a ton of stuff already.

I think this is too narrow. I'm not sure anyone would ever use it.

You're right. I'm trying to come up with a good idea that would focus on gold production. A flat bonus percentage seems lame. Perhaps:

+1 from luxuries
+1 from

Or something similar?

 

[Imuratep]

My idea for an OO civic.
The Great Dreaming - No upkeep. -50% unit production, +50% , +100% in all cities (I think FFH anyway has not enough ways to support cultural victory and OO already has a certain tendency for it.).
The civic could also enable a cheap building that has a high chance to spawn illusions of the nameless horrors lurking in the deep every turn to simulate your dreams and the dreams of your followers.

 

[Isotope]

I think instead of posting ideas people, or at least some people, should be posting XML files with their versions of civics first. Thus, they could be tested in game and this thread would stop being a mere ideas recopilation.