Civil Service from Oracle - What difficulty level?

[Cort Haus]

I've come to the conclusion that the CS slingshot on Monarch difficulty is definitely not worth it. I do like to build the Oracle though for Code of Laws and here is my reasoning.

• Forces me to focus on writing early which is an excellent tech and a prerequisite for Alphabet. Tech trading is very important! Just don't trade alphabet under any circumstances.
• Allows me to ignore early religions in favor of other techs. Since I prefer to focus on Bronze Working first I often miss out on Buddhism or Hinduism.
• Early Great Prophet will help me spread Confucianism by building the religious wonder.
• The amount of money from a religion plus access to early courthouses means I can support a larger empire earlier.

Though IIRC you are not forced towards Writing if you take the religious path to CoL. In fact, if you started with Mysticism and wanted a really quick CoL you could nip straight through to Priesthood then build the Oracle.

If you want to see how it's possible, do a few test games focusing on the 2 Scientists & Academy and you'll get a feel of when it is or isn't a good idea. There's no magic recipe, you have to play the terrain and starting techs to solve the puzzle.

 

[sandman_civ]

Every time people talk about building the oracle on high levels, I start to get suspicious.

I get the oracle most of the time on emperor playing an industrious civ. Chopped of course unless I happen to have marble. Anything higher than emperor could be suspicious but if you really push for one early wonder you can get it even on Deity.

 

[Gufnork]

I get it pretty much every game on Immortal even if I don't head straight for it. I don't see the issue. Might be impossible on Deity, but it's far from it on lower difficulties. Trying to get Civil Service just sounds stupid, however. It's a gamble that only works on low difficulties with a not that impressive reward (unless you play OCC). I suggest that you give that up, if you ever hope to develop as a player.

 

[Cort Haus]

So Gufnork, Monarch is a low level to you. Why do you have to call people stupid though, for doing that?

 

[Mannu]

Though IIRC you are not forced towards Writing if you take the religious path to CoL. In fact, if you started with Mysticism and wanted a really quick CoL you could nip straight through to Priesthood then build the Oracle.

If you want to see how it's possible, do a few test games focusing on the 2 Scientists & Academy and you'll get a feel of when it is or isn't a good idea. There's no magic recipe, you have to play the terrain and starting techs to solve the puzzle.

Writing is a prereq for COL no matter what. But you can get to writing by just going Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood.

Never tried to the route through Pottery or trying for an early Great Scientist for an Acedemy. I would have to eschew Stonehenge though. Something to definitely think about!

 

[Gufnork]

Even smart people can do stupid things. I said the strategy sounded stupid, not the people trying it. I don't see why you would risk so much for so little reward. Plus you would have to give the strategy up as soon as you've improved enough to play a new difficulty level.

 

[Cort Haus]

There's more to Civving than beating the highest levels - like enjoying the game and not being forced down a narrow channel. Not everyone wants to play at Immortal, and many players would rather have fun on, say, Monarch or Prince - where different options are available, than use exploits like infinite anarchy just to beat deity - impressive an achievement though that is.

The Slingshot isn't stupid. It gives you a tech lead on Monarch lasting long into the game. More people play at Monarch and below than above it, so it's a legitimate strategy for most civvers. Not the only, not the best, and certainly not the easiest, but one of the available ones to try, and to have fun with.

 

[Cort Haus]

Writing is a prereq for COL no matter what. But you can get to writing by just going Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood.

Never tried to the route through Pottery or trying for an early Great Scientist for an Acedemy. I would have to eschew Stonehenge though. Something to definitely think about!

Right - the religious route to writing must be what I was thinking of. So starting with Myst, there are 3 techs to research before CoL is available for the Oracle.

 

[spiceant]

if you go the mystik way B-lining to oracle you must invest 348 (or 90 with myst starting tech) beakers to start building the oracle and 840 more beakers to get to code of laws.


ill try put it down nicely:
techs: mystik<90>/meditation<144>/priesthood<108>/writing<216>/CoL<630> (total of 1188 beakers)
speed: normal
difficulty (does it matter?): emperor
if you wanna get CoL finished before given date you need:

• 1ad - Average of 10,3 Beakers per turn
• 500bc - Average of 12,5 Beakers per turn
• 1000BC - Average of 15,8 Beakers per turn
• 1500BC - Average of 17,7 Beakers per turn
• 2000BC - Average of 23,8 beakers per turn

pottery costs about 144 beakers, this is about 10% of the total cost without pottery, however the cottages may prove usefull.
generally i would strongly advice against CoL+oracle rushing CS, unless blessed with more then 1 gem/silver/gold deposits or other beaker sources
in my test game the oracle was finished at 1080bc (play-game huge-continental settings)

 

[Smirk]

I get it pretty much every game on Immortal even if I don't head straight for it. I don't see the issue. Might be impossible on Deity, but it's far from it on lower difficulties. Trying to get Civil Service just sounds stupid, however. It's a gamble that only works on low difficulties with a not that impressive reward (unless you play OCC). I suggest that you give that up, if you ever hope to develop as a player.

Oh come on, you play every difficulty as if it were diety? Assuming you can't build wonders or tech fast enough like on diety is just going to make you a weak player overall. I play gotm and hof so difficulty varies and I don't ignore strategies simple because they don't work at higher difficulties. I can get paper or better on lower difficulties, but I guess you would just halt research before code so that you only ever get code?

Frankly its sounds like you are the one that needs to develop as a player, you want to use one strategy for all games when in fact the game is much more dynamic than that.

 

[spiceant]

i have ran a test game (prince/huge) with gandhi and got a confucianist bureaucracy at 1600bc

save game attached, i regenerated the map untill i had a gold vein, if it werent next to a river it would probably have taken me a litle longer. if it were silver it would have taken longer, if it were gems i'd faint and go back home.

it might be interesting to note that i could instead have researched philosophy (same beaker cost), if i had wanted to. (bureaucracy is 100x more usefull though)

 

[spiceant]

sorry for dople post but i forgot to attach the save

 

[Cort Haus]

it might be interesting to note that i could instead have researched philosophy (same beaker cost), if i had wanted to. (bureaucracy is 100x more usefull though)

The Philosophy Slingshot can be used to get Angkor Wat early for a priest-prophet strategy. I haven't tried it myself, though.

 

[Arrian]

I've had something like a 90% success rate on Prince with it, so while I'd suspect that would drop on Monarch, it can still be done fairly reliably (as CH says). The opportunity costs goes up, of course. I tend to make a couple of detours in my tech path on Prince that I'd probably have to cut out on Monarch.

I don't necessarily do it the "pure" way (2 scientists for the GS -> Academy before the Oracle completes), either - I often build/choprush the Oracle in my 2nd city, and I often only run 1 scientist instead of 2.

My typical techpath takes me through Animal Husbandry to Writing, I'll grab BW if possible (starting with mining or getting it from a hut obviously really helps w/this), maybe agriculture if I've a lot of farmable resources around, and then myst-med-priest-code.

Having marble can help, but it also requires a detour for Masonry and you need to hook up the resource (which may very well require the wheel too!), so as often as not, I find that marble is useful for later wonders (GLibrary, Taj) but not the Oracle.

-Arrian

 

[DaveMcW]

difficulty (does it matter?): emperor

Yes it does matter. Tech cost is more expensive on higher difficulty levels, which is why CS slignshot doesn't work.

 

[Arrian]

Yep... as difficulty ramps up, the lengths one has to go to in order to get to CoL before building the Oracle (and building the Oracle before the AI) increase.

It's a great strat on Prince. It looks solid on Monarch. Emperor and above... maybe not.

-Arrian

 

[Gufnork]

Oh come on, you play every difficulty as if it were diety? Assuming you can't build wonders or tech fast enough like on diety is just going to make you a weak player overall. I play gotm and hof so difficulty varies and I don't ignore strategies simple because they don't work at higher difficulties. I can get paper or better on lower difficulties, but I guess you would just halt research before code so that you only ever get code?

Frankly its sounds like you are the one that needs to develop as a player, you want to use one strategy for all games when in fact the game is much more dynamic than that.

True, it might be useful for GOTM and such. And using it once in a while isn't a bad idea, but I wouldn't rely on it if I wanted to develop as a player. If you do not wish to get better, then it might be a good idea, but I thought people visited this forum to become a better player. Everyone can beat Immortal when they've gotten enough insight into the game, it's not like the ones doing it are some kinds of geniuses.

But you're right, I do need to develop as a player, that's why I'm here (that and helping others develop). You're also wrong, I'm one of those least bound by one set strategy. This game require flexibility, I learned that long ago. I'm just saying that relying on a strategy that will eventually stop working will halt your development as a player.

 

[spiceant]

Nice litle thing to know, a great prophet can already boost civil service up 70% after you research code of laws, meditation, polytheism, writing and priesthood. the 70% boost puts civil service a litle over the cost of iron working.

 

[alco75]

I wasted two hours yesterday trying a CS Slingshot on Prince. The AI built the Oracle about 12 turns before I'd researched CoL. Anyway, is CS really all that great to have so early? Macemen can't be built w/out Machinery. Science will generally be at close to 100% so the +50% Gold from Bureacracy is wasted. Irrigation isn't especially important in the BCs. Philosophy would be a better bet.

 

[alanschu]

I'm pretty sure it's +50% commerce with Bureaucracy.