Civilization 3 Trait Rate

[amirsan]

Ok, I was a little bored so I decided to cook up a little reference strategy for my fellow begginneres. I will rate all of the Civ 3 Traits by stars defined like this; *****. Five being the highest and one being the lowest.


Industrious- Faster workers means more , commerce and food eirlier than everyone else, meaning higher population, more gpt (meaning more science) and faster building time for infastructure and unit production. Industrious Triat in my opinion is the "all around trait", everything put in one. This trait can be good for the builder and the warmonger type of player. The only way to be effective in this trait is to build alot of workers early on, or at least one for each city. I give this trait *****.

Scientific- The most important thing in Civilization besides gold is Science. If you dont advance with you opponents, you are bound to loose (unless your lucky ). Scientific trait obviously helps you with research, especcially if your the type to want to research most of the techs yourself. Not only science but it helps in culture as well sinse all scientific buildings give culture off. This trait may not seem the best for the Emperor/ Diety level player sinse your realy not supposed to research your own techs as opposed to being the "daily trader", but thier another side. The free tech! At the beggining of each era, you get a free tech (Middle Age= Monothiesm, Feudualism or Engineering). That free tech can be very, very powerful especially if your playing on the higher levels. The first tech of a new age is always the most expesive at the time and can be used to keep you ahead or in tech Parity with your opponents. I give this trait ****.

Commercial- GOLD! Whats better than haveing more gold. In Civ3 you can do everything with gold (won't get started with the list). Haveing about 30 good placed cities can give you an average 30 to 60gpt. That extra may not seem alot but you know its alot when you enter the Middle Ages!This trait as I see it is one of the most underrated traits of all of the others, though to me its one of the best. This one is a ****.

Expansionist- This is a great trait only if used right. A person using this trait that only builds one scout through the whole game is wasteing this trait. I think this trait is powerful in higher levels for three reasons.
1. Scouts, you start with one also.
2. Better goodie huts.
3. Start with Pottery.
Scouts is a 2-movement unit allowing you to explore twice as fast as your opponent, allowing you to have a twice as bigger WM, which is extremely powerful. To know your opponents land more than him can win you many battles (you can hear a similar quote if you read the Sun Tzu's Art of War). Diety is also known for its killer goddie huts, but with scouts, FEAR NO MORE! You can troll through goodie huts with no fear of barbs, aahhhhhhhh. Repeat it again with me, aaaaaahhhhhhh. The last reason why Expansionist trait is a graet one is becuase it starts with Pottery. In my opinion, Pottery is the most powerful First Level tech in the Ancient Age (I never said the most expensive though ). It is the most important for one reason only, they allow you to build granary right off the bat. Granaries may be the most important improvement in the ancient age especially if you dont start with food bonuses(wheat, cattle etc.). This one gets ***.

Militarialistic- I, myself dont like this trait unless I'm playing AW or know for sure that I'm going for a military victory. Any other civ can do everything that the Militarialistic can. The only speciall thing about this trait is the cheaper military buildings. Rating depending on your victory preference. * if your not going for a military victory.

Religous- Mmmmmm, if your not going for a cultural victory, I'm not fond for this one either... Cheaper Happiness building only say one word, MORE CULTURE, (I guess thats two words...). Why would you go with this trait if you not going for a culture victory?? Ahhhh, yes, the one turn Anarchy. Now this is where it comes in, this is why it may be a great trait if your not going for a cultural victory but a Militarialistic victory. Whats better than switching between Republic and Monarchy during your wars??? Nothing! I think 1 turn as opposed to 7 turns is very powerful especcially when you entering the Middle Ages and changing your government there. Your probably building wonders that maybe one measly turn can decide whether you get it or not. I give this trait a ***.



Well, I think thats all the traits . I know some of you may have different opinions so they are always welcome to make this thread even more helpful for our fellow Civilization 3 beginners. Good Luck!

 

[anarres]

I pretty much agree, but you underate Militaty IMO.

The chances of promotion are halved (apart from the chance of gettign a leader). This is not insignificant.

Cheaper barracks can be very useful when in warfare in the Ancient Era. The 20 shields saving is an extra unit.

Cheaper Harbours are very useful on Archipelago maps where they are required for growth.

 

[amirsan]

Yes, thats why I wrote that its *depending* on what you are doing.

 

[kb2tvl]

Industrious- *****. I agree this deserves a 5. Hands down, this trait is probably the most powerful trait at key times in the game.

Scientific- ****. I personally don't like this trait. it's a "crap shoot" to which tech you get. Personally, I like expansionistic more than this trait. The libraries/unv are nice but anyone can build them, eventually. Also, you can get your free tech "stolen" from you. That is you pop into a new age and another scientific pulls the same tech. I would rate this as a 3.

Commercial- ****. I love this trait in combination with other traits but I would not rank it above expansionstic unless your on diety level. Then things change and you need change to buy tech.

Expansionist- ***. I agree on diety level because the AI gets so many early units that you can not really pop many huts but on Monarch and probably emporer, you can rocket into the midevil era with a ton of cash. I think this probably deserves a 4 but 3 is ok.

Militarialistic- * . I agree here and this is especially true on diety level. The AI so owns in early times that you really can't use this trait unless you need harbors or are in the industrial period.

Religous- ***. I guess I agree with this but there are some caveats. you can go desp -> monarchy(military police for happiness) -> republic(once you got markets up) -> demo( fast workers) -> commy/demo as war dictates. Also, super early and cheap culature really helps prevent flipping.

 

[lz14]

My cities only have three improvements: wall, barraks and a temple. After you build these, there should be a LONG time where you can't build anything else other than troops. So it's millitraristic and religious for me.

 

[amirsan]

What level are you playing on Iz14??? On the Emperor/Diety levels, you only get one contant citizen. I agree with you on the improvements but I would put much more in my core cities sinse you want them to grow higher and faster.

 

[JustBen]

Hey, I happen to like cheap Cathedrals. They're a heck of a lot more useful than cheap Universities. This counts double if you're having trouble accumulating enough luxuries due to disrupted trade routes or a poor location. They also have excellent synergy with doing the Democracy/Monarchy switch, since a good Cathedral base will help you withstand the war weariness regardless of what your luxury situation is.

Cheap Libraries certainly are cool, but to me they still just feel like a second-rate replacement for a Temple. Cheap culture is what it is of course, but I rather prefer my culture buildings to do something useful rather than give me a 50% bonus to my nonexistent research spending.

That said, we should be honest with ourselves -- are tricks with Anarchy and Cathedrals really worth more than the Nationalism slingshot? Probably not.

I really prefer to think of Militaristic more along the lines of Expansionist than the other traits. It's an acceleration thing. I think being able to build a Barracks for the same cost as an Archer is really, really good at the start of a game. Getting that extra 33% out of your barbarian-hunters is convenient and can save you casualties when you absolutely cannot afford them. "Only" 20 shields is the difference between feasible and not when you're racing the AIs to grab land. God help you if you have to rush into an early war with your Archers to secure an iron source -- then you'll definitely be loving Militaristic. And archipelago maps notwithstanding, I won't even touch resources-for-tech trades on Deity without a Harbor. Getting one online double-quick can be really important even if you're on a pangaea map.

 

[conuil]

I find industrious to be the best like most people. Then religious, the cheap temple/cathedrals and the 1 turn anarchy are great throughout the game. Militaristic would be next as promotions and cheap barracks can give you the edge in war time.

I used to rate Scientific highly but I'm not so sure anymore, the free tech only happens 3 times (I think) so its not much, but the cheap Libraries and Universities are a big help. Commercial is one of the least useful ones I've never seen any huge benefit from it.

Finally Expansionist which is rated highly in this post in my opinion is only a cheap early boost. After the first maybe 20 turns its useless. I'd rather have a trait that was helping me throughout the game.

 

[TerriaMachine]

I agree with conuil somewhat. I never play an expansionist civ because after the world is mapped out and maps are traded, it's pretty useless. Though I guess if you get that big lead in the beginning and then are good enough to keep the lead with techs and culture and such, perhaps folks like myself have up until now been underestimating the power of an expansionist trait. For myself, religious and militaristic are my two favorite traits. I almost always play Aztecs as the jag is probably the best uu out there, IMHO, somewhat replacing scouts due to their movement for quick exploration...

 

[Leha]

Agreed mostly , but IMHO religious trait is underrated , my best wins were with religious civs ( 1 turn revolution is very powerfull advantage )

 

[JustBen]

If you don't like Expansionist, then that's a personal preference and a legitimate one at that. If you think Expansionist is just no good, you're just not using it right.

Expansionist is only useful at the start of the game. Basically you trade off one of your civ's traits over the long haul in exchange for a huge boost at the start of the game -- and make no mistake, Expansionist is a huge boost. (Well, on Pangaea and a good Continent it is. Archipelago-lovers need not apply.)

Using 3 Scouts to chew up the map translates into big bucks. You don't have to pay anyone for contacts. You meet more civs sooner, so technology prices are deflated. When the computer learns Mapmaking, you can sell off your massive map to slingshot your way to tech parity (or close to it).

The bonuses you get off of goody huts, of course, is somewhat random. But just being able to pop them with impunity will tend to make it worthwhile. Some people believe a free Settler is roughly equivalent to turning the difficulty level down by 1 (I don't know if I buy that, though).

If you haven't cranked your difficutly level up to Emperor yet, it's understandable that you don't like Expansionist. The rougher the early game is for you, the better Expansionist starts to feel. It's by far the hardest trait to appreciate, and takes some skill to leverage into a serious advantage.

I myself swore it was an absolute waste of a civ trait -- not just a bad pick, but an actual wasted trait -- until I played a game as the Iroquois on Emperor. I then went from swearing that Emperor was impossible to smoking two -- two -- civs before the Middle Ages. Wow.

It's all about exponential growth. A little lead at the beginning of the game translates to a huge lead in the late game. Think about it -- how many times have you taken the lead in a game of Civ 3 and then managed to lose it? (If the answer is greater than 0, spend some more time at the War Academy. Losing the UN vote doesn't count.)

Is Expansionist the best trait? I doubt it. Is it strong, though? Definitely.

 

[TerriaMachine]

Thanks JustBen! Those are some great insights

 

[Bigfoot]

I agree that Industrious is the best trait, or at least it is for my style of play. Getting your most powerful tiles up and running in 1/2 the time translates into big power advantages for the long term, plus quicker connections to luxuries & resources, etc. I like to randomize starting positions (except for my civ), and Industrious = the most flexible trait.

I disagree with you about the Religous trait, which I would rate 2nd most powerful. You need culture, even if you wish to pursue a warmonger strategy (a quick temple in captured cities goes a long way toward preventing flips). Having a higher cultural rating influences AI attitudes, meaning more favorable diplomacy and better trading terms, yielding more techs and more $$. Also, I would rate happiness buildings (Temple, Cathedral, etc.) over science buildings since I tend to either buy, trade or conquer to get a lot of my techs.

But perhaps most important (IMHO) is the ability to change govt. types with only 1 turn of anarchy. This allows you to use Democracy without the problems you normally experience if you get dragged into a war (you can always switch to Communism or Monarchy, then switch back when the war is over). By comparison, I usually stay in Republic if I am not playing a Religous civ, since losing 4-6 turns of production switching govt. types is too painful. I am usually getting techs every 4-5 turns by the later stages of the game, so switching govt. types = a lost tech. Combine this with the advantages of using Democracy while at peace, and Religous trumps Scientific, at least as a 'culture builder'.

 

[blix]

Expansionists is the least likely characteristic I would want because it's absolutely usless.Sure you can go to good huts without the fear of barbs but that's it.The most likely I'd pick are industrious,militaristic,and religious.

I have no need for commercial,scientific,and expansionists because when you have a strong military and economy you can force other civs to give you their tech and demand tributes from them.

 

[budweiser]

The other good thing about expansionist is that you dont need to research or purchase pottery. You can get a granary right at the start. I sometimes buiild a granary before anything else. I start the granary and then chop down a tree to help it. Use the lux slider if you grow too fast. Try that, and you are off to a good REX start.

 

[JustBen]

I dunno... I never thought starting with Pottery was all that cool. In the time it takes you to build 2-3 Warriors as a non-Expansionist civ, you can have Pottery researched before the average prebuild finishes. If you are Expansionist, then I think not producing 2-3 Scouts before your Granary really squanders the benefit of your trait.

Now starting with Masonry or Alphabet -- that's where it's at! Those your high-dollar first tier techs and really help at the bargaining table early in the game.

 

[Beanzy]

For me it's:

1. Industrious -- As everyone has said, faster worker tasks means more shields, commerce, and food! That is just so incredibly usefull! Plus, like JustBen said, you start with Masonry, which is a very expensive tech which you can sell for a lot. (Same thing for Commercial in regards to Alphabet)

2. Commercial -- Reduces corruption which is always a big problem in any game. Less corruption means more money for science, which is immensely important.

3. Expansionistic -- The scouts at the beginning help you get the lay of the land so you can place your cities better, they can serve to block up choke points early and effectively to keep your enemies boxed in, and, most importantly, if you play on a Huge Pangea map, they can probably blast you through the Ancient Age incredibly swiftly. Gotta love this trait, even if its usefullness expires once you hit the Middle Ages.

4. Relgious, I think cheap happiness is fairly important, especially if you don't want to spend all your income keeping the luxury rate at 40% the whole game. Not to mention the one turn anarchy. For me, I have several switches throuought the game: Despotism to Republic to Democracy to Communism and back again during war time. The 1 turn anarchy helps a lot.

5. Scienctific -- Sure, the cheap Libraries are nice for scientific reasearch and culture and the free technology can be a nice slingshot into the new age, but I find that Expansionistic can get you a bigger science boost than Scientific can. Any trait that gets you free techs (like Exp.) or quick cash (Comm.) is better suited to quickly get you technologies that Scientific is.

6. Militaristic -- The cheap Barracks and Harbors can help, but only if you plan to engage in warfare extremely early. The extra promotions can help if you are at constant war. I guess if you plan to act as the name of this trait implies, it can be extremely good, but, since I don't play that way, I've never really seen it as very good. (And I really don't think the cheap Walls, Coastal Fortresses, and Civil Defences are even significant enough to matter at all.)

 

[Lord Beverage]

Isn't this a rather futile exercise? Certain maps can render any of these traits useful or useless.

High difficulty tiny maps of any shape I would want Militaristic/Religious with Scientific and Industrious only being somewhat useful and Expansionistic and Commercial being next to useless.

Now take a huge pangea on that same level of difficulty I would want Expansionistic with either Industrious or Commercial, with Scientific being only somewhat useful and Religious and Militaristic next to useless.

Switching from pangea to archipelago on that same size I would drop Expansionistic to useless and elevate Religious to somewhat useful.

Continents of either sizes would be a mix of both extremes, rendering all skills potentially useful or useless.

Now on a any manner of medium sized map I would want Industious with either Religious or Scientific. Militaristic and Commericial would be in the somwhat useful category, while Expansionistic would be in the useless category.

Lower difficulties increase the value of Religious, Scientific, and Expansionistic, lower the value of Militaristic and Commercial, and leave Industrious unchanged.

My point is that you really can't rate these on a simple one to six scale of overall usefulness; it is entirely dependant on the game you're playing.

 

[JustBen]

Originally posted by Lord Beverage
Isn't this a rather futile exercise? Certain maps can render any of these traits useful or useless.

Anything a player never thought of before is worth hearing someone say. It just so happens that you've presented the most lucid and accurate accounting of "ranking" the traits.

I tend to agree with you -- saying this trait is better than that trait is kind of silly. Every civ in the game is perfectly playable and can take a player to a win on Deity or in multiplayer. The fruitful part of this discussion is not people bickering about which is better than which, but why they think so. As you can see by reviewing this thread, there are still a lot of people who just don't understand how an Expansionist civ works. That sub-thread alone makes this a worthwhile exchange of ideas.

Your points, as I've said, are all very valid. I would add one more item to your list, though -- a trait's value also depends on what your second trait is. Commercial has very interesting synergy with Scientific, since you get less corruption interacting with increased Library penetration. Religious Militarists are better equipped to make war under a representative government. Scientific Militarism means you start the game with both first-tier military units available.

I'll spare you any more of my garbage at this point.

 

[tao]

Let me be the devil's advocate:devil2: :

Industrious is nearly worthless. The problem is, that most players just don't realize they have to have enough workers. If you manage to setup a good worker factory, your done. You need twice as many workers (say 60 instead of 30 natives), which is a difference of 300 shields.

Compare this with half price barracks (militaristic) used to crank out veterans to conquer towns and make slave raids. You get your pop growth from conquering.

Or compare it to half price temples/cathedrals or libraries/universities helping you to acquire cities via culture flips.

But of course, it is fun to play the industrious trait.

PS: With the "discovery" of RCP, the corruption reduction of commercial has lost some of it's appeal, IMHO.