Civilization 5 and Steam(works)

[The_Coyote]

If your going to protest something, please use the correct terminology, Steam is not malware or adware or a big phishing scam to steal your credit car information. Steam could be an annoying persistent background interface needed to run the game, as well as, chew up some processing power but that's it. This constant misrepresentation on both sides is getting tiresome.

I fear even using the definition above literally someone could use this word. If your definition of "infiltrate" also includes infiltration with the target to collect data and you also apply a very strict defintion to "informed consent" it could conform the definition. While you made a consent to install steam - i´m not sure if the term "informed consent" really applies. Simply because not all is known - some parts are only guessed or anticipated (sometimes exaggerated, sometimes understated), and a consent based partial on guesses must not be compulsory seen as "informed consent".

By imo i would agree that calling steam malware would be "a bit" too harsh

 

[bonscott]

arstal: How can Steam overcharge you?

Double charges can easily happen. I've had it happen at regular stores a few times over the years, had it happen at Amazon once, heck my direct deposited paycheck got deposited twice a few years ago. Mistakes happen.

The problem here with Valve is that if you do a chargeback on your credit card for the 2nd charge due to Steam support either ignoring your support request or taking weeks to look at it then Valve will lock your account with no recourse and that $1000 you spent on Steam games is gone. Poof.

The net and the Steam forums themselves have many such postings if you want "proof".

The chances are probably low that it would ever happen but it has and does happen and just that chance is enough for me to never want to do business with that company. Thus any game that forces Steam on me is a no sale, period, forever.

At least with other DD stores like Impulse if such a thing were to happen you don't lose your games. Why? You don't even need Impulse installed to play the games you bought and downloaded thru the service. Wow, imagine that.

 

[PieceOfMind]

If your going to protest something, please use the correct terminology, Steam is not malware or adware or a big phishing scam to steal your credit car information. Steam could be an annoying persistent background interface needed to run the game, as well as, chew up some processing power but that's it. This constant misrepresentation on both sides is getting tiresome.

Under some definitions it can reasonably be interpreted as adware but never malware from what I've seen. The definitions it fits could be described as the friendly adware definitions. I think the simplest and most obvious argument for why Steam is adware is that the ads in the steam client are probably where the majority (or if not, a large portion) of revenue for Valve is generated and that the ads are obviously not required for the gameplay or community-related aspects of Steam to function. Very few people, if any, would seek to obtain Steam for the ads alone as those ads are also provided on their store webpage which can be accessed without the Steam client and without a steam account.

If the Steam client stopped including ads at some point down the road, I would say it no longer fit any definition of adware.

 

[GinandTonic]

I will definitely NOT buy the game, because of Steam.

Ive bought just about every Civ related title but because of steam not this time. If I spend £35 on a game it's mine to do with as I will, and I wont tolerate any of this nonsense about having previously installed it on computers. I must have installed my copy of Civ4 ten times on my different computers and laptops. I dont see why I should have to, in effect, ask for permission every time I want to install or play a product I've purchased.

If they sell hard copies and a way to spoof the Steam comes out I'll be out of my door in a flash.

Moderator Action: We don't allow discussion of piracy, cracks, or anything of that nature here.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[azzaman333]

I will definitely NOT buy the game, because of Steam.

Ive bought just about every Civ related title but because of steam not this time. If I spend £35 on a game it's mine to do with as I will, and I wont tolerate any of this nonsense about having previously installed it on computers. I must have installed my copy of Civ4 ten times on my different computers and laptops. I dont see why I should have to, in effect, ask for permission every time I want to install or play a product I've purchased.

If they sell hard copies and a way to spoof the Steam comes out I'll be out of my door in a flash.

You can install it on as many computers as you wish. The only requirement is that you're logged into steam on the computer so it can verify that you're the owner.

 

[GinandTonic]

You can install it on as many computers as you wish. The only requirement is that you're logged into steam on the computer so it can verify that you're the owner.

There is a thread contradicting this in OT atm.

Limited licences.

 

[azzaman333]

There is a thread contradicting this in OT atm.

Limited licences.

As I believe I stated in that very thread, buying the license second-hand is going to cause issues because it's already locked to a specific steam account.

Register Civ5 with your steam account and you can log in and play it on any machine where Civ5 and steam are installed. The only restriction is that you have logged into the steam account (or the computer has been set to remember your details and you use offline mode)

 

[The_Coyote]

If you once have registered the game, the game is bound to this account. But you can install the game - at elast with the atm known facts - at how many computers you like (the shall be no install limit or even installed at once limit) - but you can play online only at one of them to the same time. Perhaps you will have (not certain) to reauthentify (means reconnect to steam) if you changed some of your hardware components and played in offline mode.

But you cannot sell the game (ok you can - but it should be worthless for the buyer), because you are not allowed to tranfer the account legally. Therefore reselling of games - or buying second hand games - is not really possible in a legal way. If someones buys a game which code has already been registered on steam, he buys a nice decoration but no really a playable game.

 

[Senethro]

There is a thread contradicting this in OT atm.

Limited licences.

You can't buy used Steam games. The guy got scammed.

 

[GinandTonic]

All of which I'm not willing to tolerate. Which is rather beside the point in any event since my tolerance is broken a long, long way before this issue. I put the fixed exe on every game because what happens to be in my drive is no concern of anyone but myself.

If I buy the software I'll use it any way I please with the law, at least in the UK, behind me. So if a hard copy of Civ 5 is sold, when the Steam spoof is released I'll buy it.

EDIT -

That is to say, I will buy a legal copy of the game when I can play it without Steams permission. Which is legal in the UK.

 

[azzaman333]

All of which I'm not willing to tolerate. Which is rather beside the point in any event since my tolerance is broken a long, long way before this issue. I put the fixed exe on every game because what happens to be in my drive is no concern of anyone but myself.

If I buy the software I'll use it any way I please with the law, at least in the UK, behind me. So if a hard copy is sold, when the Steam spoof is released I'll buy it.

You don't need the disc in the drive to play a steam game.

 

[GinandTonic]

Thats hardly the point.

 

[Chiyochan]

Untill they offer a copy I cannot be banned from by jerk mods on steam I will not obtain a legal copy. DRM was bad enough in civ 4, I do not need to 'sign on' and 'connect to the web' to play my game.

 

[Senethro]

Untill they offer a copy I cannot be banned from by jerk mods on steam

This doesn't happen.

 

[Danthor]

If your going to protest something, please use the correct terminology, Steam is not malware or adware or a big phishing scam to steal your credit car information. Steam could be an annoying persistent background interface needed to run the game, as well as, chew up some processing power but that's it. This constant misrepresentation on both sides is getting tiresome.

You just named the most basic malware, which is simply software with unwanted effects.
Bah, in any case it isn't hard to circumvent it, but still, why should I have to do this if I've paid for it? Isn't it enough having to live with Windows? :S

 

[Wotan]

I have had an interesting conversation today, with the Swedish Data Inspection Board (Datainspektionen) a public authority tasked to protect the individual's privacy in the information society without unnecessarily preventing or complicating the use of new technology.
I quoted the following text from wiki to the person I chatted with (I did not claim this to be correct info since it is from wiki):
Statistics collection
Steam collects and reports anonymous metrics of its usage, stability, and performance.With the exception of Valve's hardware survey, most collection occurs without notifying the user or offering an opt-out. Some of these metrics are available publicly, such as what games are being played or statistics on player progress in certain games. Valve has also used information from these statistics to justify implementing new features in Steam, such as the addition of a defragmentation option for game caches.
The reply I got was that it was not enough for steam to have a simple yes/no put to the customer if you consent or not to steam collecting information from your system. Steam MUST supply a detailed list of what is collected and how this is to be used for it to be legally acceptable in Sweden (and probably the whole EU region) before having the customer either say yes or no to it. So you as the customer know exactly what is gathered.
I am not a steam user so cant file a formal complaint but it would be interesting if a current steam user did, just to have Steam legally scrutinized. If Steam's information gathering complies with Swedish (EU) legislation or not. maybe, and I only say maybe, Civ5 cannot be legally available in Sweden (EU) through Steam as it is used today?

 

[Senethro]

You can be a Steam user without buying a game, so sue them and earn big bucks!

Or you'll be the most reviled person in nerd-Sweden when Steam stops service there and they all lose their games.

 

[grant2004]

Steam is the only concern I have about Civ V. I'm absolutely certain I'd buy the game if Steam weren't required. With it, I'm not certain. I'm put off by overly restrictive DRM because it only serves to harm the legitimate customers who aren't willing to do something illegal and work around it. I feel that Civ IV sold well even with what I would call pitifully weak copy protection, it doesn't seem that moving to Draconian copy protection is a smart business move.

The thing that 2k need to realize about Civ is that they have a cash cow on their hands as long as they don't do anything stupid. I've seen a number of people say that Civ is their 'lieftime game' that it's a fundamentally fun concept that they have enjoyed for a decade or more, and can see themselves enjoying for many more decades. If they keep this fan base, even with only slow expansion, every Civ game will sell well. If they allienate the legitimate Civ players, why will they keep their eye's open for Civ updates, expansions, or new versions? Once they scare someone off with Steam they may loose them for good, and miss out on decades of purchases.

 

[Commander Bello]

You can be a Steam user without buying a game, so sue them and earn big bucks!

Or you'll be the most reviled person in nerd-Sweden when Steam stops service there and they all lose their games.

Under the assumption that sueing Steam would be successful, what would that mean?

Would it mean that Wotan has done something wrong?
Or would it meant that Steam has done something wrong?

It is a known fact that often it will be the messenger who is shot. Yet, it is the message (and the ones who created the reasons for the message to become a message) who are causing the problems.

In other words: if such a lawsuit would make Steam to close down its presence in Sweden and by that make all Swedish Steam customers lose their games - wouldn't that be even more an argument against Steam's practice?

The company has done something wrong (therefore they are sentenced to shut down their activities), but the customers are going to lose access to all their games?

If you are a responsible customer, you would try to only get games from companies which do not put such a risk on your shoulders.

 

[Danthor]

Moderator Action: we have zero tolerance for software piracy, advocating such will not be tolerated.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Good for you. I do not advocate piracy.
I also do not advocate idiocy.
(see? it rhymes )

I know we don't buy games anymore, only the license to use the software. That said, if I buy a software and install it in MY computer I will do whatever the hell I want with it, as long as it doesn't spread out of MY system.

Those are MY RIGHTS and there is nothing anyone can do about it (except come to my house and physically damage my PC. Sure, over my dead body).