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Civilization 5 Modding Dead.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Creation & Customization' started by Afforess, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    One good patch makes you forget 5 bad ones?


    Points ->

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=392707
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=386642
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=394669
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=402610

    There are more, but I don't have limitless time.

    Let me just remove your Kitchen knives then too, you wouldn't want to cut someone. ;)


    Whys was able to list like 6 or 7 useful events. Compare that to ~100 in Civ4.


    There wasn't any out of the box. Whys had to spend many hours coming up with one.

    Try opening a file that is 10000 lines long in the Modbuddy editor, it lags like hell. Compare that to other IDE's. Eclipse, Notepad++, etc. do not lag.

    Try removing Iron out of the game. Oh wait, it CTD's. :lol:

    Where is the building art, where are the custom leaderheads? Are you blind?

    Pray tell, how would you script new AI for say, my Active City Defense mod? Oh wait. :lol:


    Your answers were so pitiful, I almost would believe Firaxis paid you. Almost. ;)
     
  2. smellymummy

    smellymummy King

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    that's easily solved with a simple script that monitors AI city builds, and adjusts them based on a custom ruleset, which for this case would involve the need to prioritize walls/castles/bases in certain situations, and a unit monitor that will move damaged units for healing when necessary

    i suppose it can be taken a step further and script routines that would try to draw opposing units within the attack radius of a city, or even override unit behavior during wartime to have their enemy come to them and be bombarded... but who ever said AI scripting was simple
     
  3. Whys

    Whys Between the Lines

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    To be clear...

    I don't recall doing that. More likely either smellymummy or Alpaca.

    killmeplease (as well as you) deserve credit for the original concept, and Thalassicus showed us all how to create an object in Lua.


    You know, having spent some time mucking around in the built in Lua, it really does seem like the only thing they wanted us to mod right now is the GUI. Nearly everything else, while like the game, looks promising, ultimately it falls short in some conspicuous way for which there is no current work around. It's frustrating because the veil that keeps things out of reach appears so thin in places, it's hard not to think it intentional.

    I actually upgraded my PC in anticipation of this game. All the hardware showed up the same day as my preordered copy. I put the tower together and had just enough time to install and load up the game before calling it a night. 6 cores baby! Good thing. I've really needed them in order to endlessly debug an undocumented API. :p

    The game? Oh I don't play the game. I love everything about it, but it's still lacking something. I don't find it compelling yet like I did Civ IV. It could be the lack of modding support.

    Yeah... It is.

    That is a bit sad to say, but I've made a game of it anyway. I don't play; I just program. The things I program don't actually help me to play. Instead, they help others to program so that they may make the game compelling. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem like the modding community has quite enough fuel for a fire yet. They all complain of conspicuous short falls for which there is no current work around.

    I have some really great ideas for an actual playable mod. I have the programming skills to make it happen. I'm even willing to work with the imperfect tools. I'm not an idealist and am willing to work with what I've got. But guess what...

    The modding support is not there. The game was released, what? 8 months ago?

    I don't wish to denigrate what I still believe can be great, but one can not ignore the lack of commitment to this community by the devs. Is it their fault? How could I know? All I know is where I'm at. It's not about pointing fingers. We've simply reached the end of the track and the devs need to lay some more rail. It does get annoying that they find it annoying.
     
  4. SamBC

    SamBC Emperor

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    There does seem to be intent, a desire to support better, from the devs, or at least from one. As reported elsewhere, it was suggested to me that they want to systematically add more GameEvents; there seems to have been some tacit admission that the release Lua interface was basically all about the UI, with very limited other elements (just look at the paucity of behaviour-modifying methods on City and Unit objects, and the fact that the Events group of events are pretty much entirely UI/Graphics oriented). I think the indication was that suggestions for more GameEvents particularly would be considered, if not immediately. It's quite possible that this is mostly a symptom of the premature release. GameEvents could, in theory, even allow for massive plugin replacement of elements of the AI system, as it can already for the auto-explore functionality. A hook event for, for example, building choices could be used; perhaps for tactical elements, although that would be hard to integrate to the core AI unless they also expose the group-level elements so you can tell what the AI was 'planning' to do with a unit. It could even allow plugin-replacement of the tile-valuing and city-placement-selecting elements. They just need to add the blasted events. It seems, though, that there is every intention to do so.
     
  5. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Theres two major reasons for Civ5s problems (including modding):
    -It cant be stolen as easy cause of steam.
    -You need an up-to-date PC to run it smoothly

    Both things reduce the ammiunt of sold copys and reduce the size of the community and everything else is a result of that. Yes, even the support because now its split between two games.

    Everything comes down to people who want a great game for free and dont understand that this wont happen.
     
  6. GambleFish

    GambleFish Chieftain

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    Oh snap, someone just got told.
     
  7. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    I think the only way we see modding fixed is
    1) 2k or Firaxis is willing to spend $ on it
    and 2) The devs know what must be done

    We have little control over 1), but 2) is something we can influence.

    You could compile a todo list of how to fix modding and then discuss it with fellow modders and send it to the community manager from 2k to forward it to the devs. If I had more experience with CIV5 modding I would write such a list.
     
  8. Whys

    Whys Between the Lines

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    I see your point and that would certainly be constructive, but I don't believe developer ignorance is the real problem. I think they are aware of the most outstanding issues and simply haven't prioritized for them as yet. But a brief list of desired events could prove useful.

    Events.BuildingCreated please.... :)
    A functional Events.InitGameStart would also be good.

    Or.... how about a dev takes a WHOLE DAY to just add as many events as they can think of, and then we'll cull the less useful ones later. ;)

    It really couldn't take that long to create a couple useful hooks. Don't tell me the problem is no one has given them a list. :p


    Hello? Is this Boehner and Reid? Yeah guys, I just want to give you a list of things you can cut from the federal budget.

    That'll fix it! :D
     
  9. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    There are probably better people to give such a list to than the community manager.

    But I'm with Whys; The issue isn't the lack of such a list. It's a lack of time able to be devoted in that direction.
     
  10. Whys

    Whys Between the Lines

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    To be honest, I can wait. I mean, I have other hobbies and fun things to do. I just don't want Civ5 to die a premature death. These things happen. :p

    I was actually part of the SWG pre-release beta, only to then pay to become part of the post-release beta, only to then become part of the vapor that was the vapor-ware. It would be grossly inaccurate to say SWG was *ever* out of beta. There was the perpetual promise that something meaningful would eventually emerge. It did... but it was called EQ2. It borrowed a great deal of code from SWG. Those like myself really should have gotten a free copy.

    I don't want to see the still as yet incomplete Civ5 code become cannibalized for some new inspiration with a new name before this one ever really gets off the ground.

    Patience on the other hand, is no big deal. One need only find fun ways to complain, to pass the time. :D
     
  11. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    I don't think they are ignorant at all. That's why I suggested to start communication with them instead of complaining here. Making lots of theories why the modding system is still messed up so much won't help us. 8 Month and still pretty much nothing fixed.

    even if they are aware your list would give them feedback if they are right or wrong. Of course they might still decide to spend their time on awesome modding tools like a map converter :rolleyes:
     
  12. Whys

    Whys Between the Lines

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    If complaining here isn't communicating with them, then that's the first thing they need to do different. CivFanatics *IS* the modding community and the most appropriate place for developer feedback. If by some logic they don't already realize this or can't otherwise take a moment to read what we write here, then why should I volunteer my efforts?

    It's a 2 way street. The work we do here is not useless or unhelpful to the developers. Maybe they should act like it. ;)
     
  13. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    And not only that, but this particular board and its subforums have one of the best signal-to-noise ratios I've ever seen. Go over to the General Discussion forum or even the Bug Reports forum and you'll be inundated with useless information, sort of like the rest of the Internet. But on the C&C board, the majority of the posters are beyond that sort of thing, and you get a much deeper discussion about the underlying mechanisms (probably because a good number of us have programmed before). That sort of thing is far more useful to a developer, because it means that bug reports tend to be much more detailed than "it didn't work!".

    Not that I expect them to do so, but I really wish they'd just go to the creators of the more popular mods and ask for lists of outstanding bugs and wishlists of features. For instance, in my own mod I've run into several major headaches:
    1> Buildings cannot be given a negative Happiness value. Doing so shows up in the UI but does nothing to the empire's happiness.
    2> The policies that add +Happiness when a certain building is present (i.e., Secularism giving +1 Happiness per University) do so twice, where the amount is being added to both Happiness AND UnmoddedHappiness. So that +1 is actually adding +2, half of which is unmodded. This is being done in both the UI and the engine; we can fix the UI part ourselves.
    Neither of these seem to be a very complex problem; #2, especially, was a trivial fix for the UI and it's likely the engine uses a similar logic.
    As for wishlists, we've all got long lists of things we'd like to see put in the game, but I'd settle for some better GameEvents at this point.

    Given that, I'd hope that Firaxis would have someone monitoring this board from time to time. If they're not, then there's really not much hope for the game, because based on past experience they'll never find these bugs without our help.
     
  14. SamBC

    SamBC Emperor

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    Shaun Seckman's info seems to imply that Events.* will remain graphics/UI related, and things that are based on occurrences in the abstract game go into GameEvents, which can do things Events can't (like actually give meaning to return values).

    I have a thread on the 2K modding forum for discussion of suggested GameEvents, as Mr Seckman indicated vaguely that this might be useful for informing what they do later (there's an intention to go through adding more GameEvents). I'm periodically culling things I notice here, for example, and have specifically invited suggestions in the thread on GameEvents in the SDK/Lua forum here. I also started one for general suggestions, but that's a lot more vague in purpose, though I'm trying to avoid talking about minor nits (as opposed to major nits that, while small, have a huge effect).
     
  15. SamBC

    SamBC Emperor

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    I put the threads I'm trying to consolidate stuff in on the official forum largely because I've seen more evidence of devs actually reading stuff there (and occasionally, in the case of Shaun Seckman, engaging in some discussion) - after all, they thought ScriptData wasn't used. It might be because, while that forum also has a pretty good SNR, it's much quieter, thus easier to keep up with.

    I agree that the vast majority of real community discussion of modding and related topics go on here, and value it greatly :)
     
  16. ShadowTek

    ShadowTek Chieftain

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    I really believe that, especially with this site and this game and the mod guys here, you guys always make this game better.

    I dont mod this game but really like what you guys make here, I HOPE that the devs read this board, cause it didnt take me long to figure out that THIS place is the only place to talk civ games, or to get mods, in fact if I have a question or problem, it doesnt even dawn on me to post the question anywhere else.. so I hope that they give you guys whatever you need to be able to improve the game as you all always have! :goodjob:

    PS Ive been coming here since civ2 though only joined awhile back..
     
  17. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Let me be clear; i abandoned LeoPaRd (collaborative attempt aimed at community resources) on the very fact that code stability has yet to be reached. I gave myself until June 15th (or maybe July) to decide if Firaxis/2K is actually serious beyond the DLC model; i'm fine with HotSeat but i guess most Modders want plenty more including DLL (which i doubt we'll get **entirely** in fact).

    More so on specific demands for some SDK features which are still unanswered by devs; MODS activation principles (when saves load) being just one - refer to Bug Reports section.

    Or stated differently; i was simply probing for the "potential" in November with basic graphics such as a complex Greyscale UI while we're all now in May and counting.

    PS; Whys - i wasn't in a snide mode in my thread, btw. And as you know already, i claim it's devs duty to "alter" the saves flaw so that activated MODS version_s are made compatible instead of causing CTD results.
     
  18. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Duh- Piracy is illegal. Let the fight continue until TRUE registered and valid customers (as investors which pay devs' salaries, btw) play with value.
    Steam is only the middle-men that grabs the usual markup fees from 2K_Firaxis profit margins.
     
  19. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Hold on - why should *WE* do their work by explaining how they would need to code our observations?

    Gimme the source, i'll find a pointer here and there but possibly never will grasp the entire structure. Skip a procedure, detect a function, define the exact declaration block, heck locate the stacks and poke all you want.

    It sums up to this -- actual game features and supplied methods. Undocumented, ModBuddy is useless to the casual ideas of many.
    Few of us can find workarounds that would soon prove to be incompatible with *NEWLY* implemented routines.

    So, gimme not the source but a solid final device to work with or to even suggest some tricky solutions. Otherwise, we're simply running on a thread mill without going the necessary distance, no matter how fast.
     
  20. Archaic

    Archaic Chieftain

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    civ5 is the worst civ game ever.
    on that note civ5 modding is so messed i cant tell what end the front and whats the @##.
    but its not dead, just a stupid devteam making problems for modders. i shall not give up mainly because 50$ is alot of money to waste. i shall mod this game, or smash my computer trying, i will bring back what i love about civ4 and get rid of the horrid ideas of shafer.
     

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