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[GS] Civilization 6 is a Perfectly Balanced Game with No Exploits

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by jokii, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. jokii

    jokii Chieftain

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    How is this affecting your gameplay experience ?
    Does the balance issues bother you, or you don't mind them ?

    Moderator Action: Removed caps from the thread title as it is unnecessarily obnoxious. Please do not do it again. This is not the first time this video has been posted. leif
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2019
  2. Sagax

    Sagax Warlord

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    What’s more balanced: the free units exploit specific to one single civ that requires a particular CS present in the game; or over-the-top pillaging available to every civ in the game that requires only slotting in one nasty military card?

    About this exploit: Should be fixed, though it is very situational. Is it worse than the Yerevan cheese, I wonder?

    About game balance: In single player, I guess some players won’t mind it as much. Heck, some even wish for more OP interactions. However, it is an issue to those who actually want a challenge, and realize so many OP elements just turn the game into a clicker game. The gold bug also leads into a bigger issue: what the heck is going on with the math under the hood of this game.
     
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  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Does it matter?
    The AI does not use it, you do not have to
    And by the time it comes around in MP game is well over.

    Should it be fixed? Yes of course
    Does it require caps and a second thread for the same YouTube video? (Agenda?)
    .. no, it is a gathering storm in a tea cup.
    Pillaging is far far far worse
     
  4. chazzycat

    chazzycat Chieftain

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    I couldn't watch the video...his smug tone of voice just bugged me too much. Of course the exploit should be fixed though.
     
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  5. Unconquered Sun

    Unconquered Sun Chieftain

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    Trade is an embarrassment. Much easier to code proper AI for it than for 1UPT and Firaxis still fails.
     
  6. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Have you considered "nothing" as an answer? If there is no math under the hood, then "nothing" is going on there.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    He's not actually smug, you can pick up on that by listening to what is being said. That channel usually goes for humor while attempting to break various games. His skill level varies wildly by game. He was pretty bad in Rimworld for example, and there are far more abusive things possible even w/o tricked out characters that completely break it. Wallotavs, hitting enemies with melee through walls, infinite sources of large amounts of heat for no power (screw thermodynamics), one-shotting centipedes in melee are all things you can do in unmodded vanilla for example. And that's not touching at all on body-stacking for comfort or other mood manipulators. bbqftw put out some excellent threads on it, Spiffing is playing small ball there :).
     
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  8. chazzycat

    chazzycat Chieftain

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    eh, I tried. He's not for me. It's all right I hate most youtubers (I'm probably just old). Thanks for the context though
     
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  9. Sagax

    Sagax Warlord

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    Well that’s “something”:crazyeye:
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I consider such threads as fishing for viewers
     
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  11. nrh

    nrh Chieftain

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    I wish Civ fans wouldn't bash Firaxis as much as they do. We should encourage them and give them the benefit of the doubt. Yes, it's a classic game.
    It's beautiful, and complex, too.
    It's not a blockbuster hit every time they release anything. This gaming company is producing a solid classic franchise like Mount&Blade.
    It's going to have bugs that take time to fix. They don't have hundreds of game coders working day and night to address your every beck and call.
    The game is outstanding stop crying
     
  12. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    This mode is how fans give feedback about what they care about, what they like, and what things need improved. Yes, it's a bit tonally aggressive. That's much to do with the medium.

    But ultimately, we are emotionally invested in the product and we are avidly awaiting the Patch Fairy.
     
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  13. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    I think any game that introduces some concept of character by using asymmetry placed into a broader game world that has symmetric rules, should work hard to balance their game within a tolerance. Designers often employ symmetry because it lends a level of inherent balance.
    Example: a game like Chess is symmetric. Both players have the same pieces and follow the same rules.
    An RTS like Starcraft has symmetric rules and maps, but asymmetric characters (the factions.) They take great care to balance the factions with each other.
    Civ goes one step further by also having asymmetric maps. But the rules and most systems are quite symmetric. Even governments all have the same number of card slots within a tier.
    This adds a little more work but it enhances other aspects (the uniqueness of a particular game and the replay-ability.) But the crux of the design is if you actually balance the asymmetric parts, like the civs (abilities, unqiues, and start biases are one total package,) wonders within each era, policies, etc, then because of the rest of game being quite symmetric, it will naturally be very balanced overall.
    Balanced asymmetry leads to niches - aka choice and strategy. People like that stuff.

    Anyways, this is why I am a balancing advocate and I dislike the argument "you can ignore this in SP so it doesn't matter." There's a hidden layer that a lot of the fun derives from. I think FXS, and Ed Beach in particular, have done an amazing job with the design vision for Civ6. It's a beautiful work of design. Fortunately, there's a lot than can be achieved via simple changes to numbers precisely because the underlying mechanics are really well done. (Although I do suspect FXS has a legacy organizational structure of 'waterfall' game development that makes it harder for them to do 'agile' game support/balancing)
     
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  14. timmychompchomp

    timmychompchomp Chieftain

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    I posted the previous thread. I can assure all that I did not post it for views or to troll the community.

    I love Civ 6 and was unsure if, due to the humorous or obnoxious tone of the creator, if he hadn’t doctored/modded the situation for his benefit.

    I am unfortunately, not able to play as often as I’d like, so the answer isn’t really something I could look up and test myself. So I came here to ask.

    Although I love Civ 6, I am less than enthusiastic about the latest expansion. I like the ideas, I see potential, but I am surprised by the bugs, exploits, and balance issues. This video popped up on my list of suggested content and I felt a sinking feeling. That probably sounds dramatic, but it was sort of a realization that this thing I had such high hopes for was not really ready for release. I don’t use exploits, but for me, it speaks to the overall readiness of the product for the end users.

    I think this is a fair assessment. Sorry if it came across as anything else but a request for confirmation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  15. youngsteve

    youngsteve Chieftain

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    Hilarious video. This game is so broken.
     
  16. FenrisWolf456

    FenrisWolf456 Chieftain

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    The exploits in the vid aren't doctored or modded. The free units with Mali was discovered before and details posted on Reddit. And the 'sell 1 resource unit over and over' was posted about before as well, I think in these forums even. The further exploit of selling the 1 resource units over and over and then buying it back for cheap to resell again is just extrapolating the already exploitable trade function. It would become terribly tedious pretty quickly to continually make deals to sell 1 resource at a time. Spiffing just took it to the extreme for the lolz and the fact that it was the whole point of the video.


    The actual xpac is remarkably bug free overall. I've had no issues actually playing and enjoying the game, there's been nothing game-breaking or unfunctional.

    The thing with exploits is that they can be totally avoided by not actually doing the exploit. You have to actively go out of your way to do it. If it ruins your fun of the game, why would you do it in the first place? The whole Magnus/Policy card exploit ... I never did, so it had no negative effect on my games despite being a thing for a while.

    That's not to say that the issue shouldn't be addressed and fixed in some way, as if nothing else, this would be an issue for multiplayer. Though the whole valuation of resources for the AI needs some tuning. They rabidly pounce on you as soon as you get a new resource, even if they have no way of using it. As well as the extremes they go for when a resource gets too common/unuseful and for when it's too scarce. It's hard to find that good middle road.

    How to fix it is another matter, whether to tune to AI's valuation of a unit of resource, or perhaps to limit the number of diplomatic deals you can make with a certain leader (or indeed overall per turn). After all, a Leader's time is valuable, and they shouldn't be at your beck and call all the time.
     
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  17. jokii

    jokii Chieftain

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    Single player was allways "broken" by a poor tactical AI. So my primary focus in Civ was multiplayer.
    Now multiplayer is also broken because of trade bug.
    Tactical AI is a problem in all 4x games and my expectations are zero towars it.
    But how hard is to make decent trade system? It is a pure math...
    It is broken for only reason because the game was rushed with release.
    I posted bug report for broken trade before game release...
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gathering-storm-annoying-oil-trade-bug.641972/
     
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  18. timmychompchomp

    timmychompchomp Chieftain

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    I don't know about the bug-free claim. I am experiencing numerous bugs. The most notable of which involves the spawning of Barbarians. My very first attempt to play and no Barbarians, reinstalled and same issue. Third attempt and Barbarian swarm. This alone puts a player at a huge advantage or disadvantage in regards to era score. I get play the map, so I could easily say the barbarians are a part of the map, but this was not the case in vanilla or Rise and Fall, so I feel it is a bug. Any game that ships and causes me to question the validity of my game files after 30 minutes of playing, in my opinion, is not ready for the public.

    There are more examples of bugs I had not experienced before that I do now. For time, I will speak to one other. I had achieved cultural victory and for several turns it did not trigger. I saved the game, shut down the game, restarted my system, and restarted the game. Three turns later and victory took. Over the last 10 to 15 turns of the game I continually received messages that I had surpassed my last rival in terms of cultural dominance, I checked the victory table and saw that this was not the case for about 5 turns, but then definitively over took them, still receiving the notifications, checked the victory table each turn to see that I am now actually dominant over each CIV in the game. For roughly 6 to 7 turns after this I had not achieved the victory while being told, each turn, that I was culturally dominant to all Civs in the game. I was not allied with any Civ at the time but was friends with two, both of which I had roughly 20 turns left of friendship with when the victory movie finally rolled. I had never seen this issue previously. For me, this is a bug. I achieved the conditions for victory, receive mixed messages about the game state, never knowing why I had not won prior to actually winning, or why I eventually did. From all information provided to me I had won for several turns, even after the mixed message limbo period. Again, if I questioned the validity of my game files and feel the need to exit the game to possibly move past some glitch, this is, in my opinion a product not ready for consumption.

    I do not run mods. I have a few times, but I have reinstalled the game since then, as well as a refresh of windows.

    A few other underwhelming observations from my first two games. I achieved a Diplomatic Victory some where during the Atomic Era on Emperor difficulty during my first play-through. This game was played over a week or two. I found it unsatisfying that victory was so easy on level 6 difficulty, investing hours of my time, never even getting a sniff of the new late game mechanics. You could say, why did you go for it when you knew you would win? I had read that the AI works against you as you approach that victory condition, so I assumed they would vote to take away a victory point on my last vote. They did not and I won. Is this a bug? Not by definition, but starts to feel that way when you breeze to victory and never see any of the new late game.

    My second game was on Immortal. This is the culture victory I mentioned above. I think I achieved this in the late stages of the Modern era. Again, victory did not trigger on time, consistently misleading notifications about my progress, never saw the late game. Is this a bug? Not by definition. But something is wrong when I play a game over the course of a week and again never see the late game. I wonder if I will ever see it in the natural course of playing the game without restricting myself from playing the game. I guess I should look up the future techs on a fan-wiki and see what they are about.

    You must think by this point I use exploits and cheese the hell out of things. Not in the least. I purposely avoid all exploits I am aware of, never used the trade exploit, never pillaged a tile, never fought a direct war, never took a city. I was a party to a war or two because I was allied with everyone I could ally with and wars happen, but I just defended my borders, which I think were only harassed once or twice by a single ship. I also participated in a surgical strike to liberate a city state during an emergency.

    I am assuming your question was rhetorical here. As I stated in my previous post. I do not use exploits. Like Magnus/Policy card, never did it.

    FenrisWolf456. It seems we have both had wildly different experiences playing the latest iteration of Civ6. I have found it underwhelming. I would like a challenge. I hesitate to play Deity because I'd like a shot at a religion and I'd like a few wonders. I do not like bee-lining things, I do it from time to time. When I sit down to play a game I want to know I have a chance to win, but not a guarantee. I want the game to give accurate information about it's systems and give me the opportunity to experience those systems. I want the game AI to be reasonably adept at using the systems in the game. Exploits annoy me because they take me out of the game. They make me aware of the moving parts and make me feel responsible for the experience. Games are entertainment and something to occupy my mind. Escapism. As free time is at a premium in my life, I would like to use that time engaged in something of quality, something that can bring me joy and an experience that ends in accomplishment. I want to feel as though the time was not wasted away mindlessly. I am having trouble doing this with Civ 6 and especially Gathering Storm, because I feel like I have to continually modify my play-style, avoid features, be mindful of the AI and it's short comings as to not break the experience for myself.

    I equate it to going to the movies, paying for a ticket to be entertained and being told that I am to work the hand crank on the projector. They tell me if I do it just right the movie will be amazing, best one I have ever seen. Don't go too fast or too slow, you will ruin your own experience. Anyway, I'd just like to see some good actors, a decent script, some reasonable special effects, and if that's too much to ask, I would at least like to see the ending.
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I mostly agree, but I doubt it is "rushed". I think the more likely conclusion is that they don't care. It isn't just one DLC that got pushed out too quickly; this stuff is routinely given low priority at every step of development pre and post release. Low quality end user experience interacting with the game doesn't seem to bother enough of the doormat market to move the needle and encourage them to prioritize stability of MP, UI, or consistently functional mechanics. They make money w/o doing those things, so in project management phase they don't budget anything near significant enough to cover them adequately.

    This was the case at the start of Civ 5, and it has stayed the case until now without any exceptions in the interim. That's no rush job...it's a pattern.
     
  20. FenrisWolf456

    FenrisWolf456 Chieftain

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    I have seen the Barbarian thread here where people seem to be experiencing this. For myself, I haven't. Admittedly I have only played a couple of games and a couple of restarts, but hadn't had anything beyond the usual with barbarians. I haven't even been swarmed by an alerted outpost yet since GS came out. But I can see how this would certainly negatively affect your game.

    Fair enough, I would certainly call this a bug of some type. Again, not something I have seen myself. My victories have all triggered when achieved.

    Now this does seem odd, but I can't see it being a bug, just a quirk of the game setup where you 'lucked' out. All the AIs decided to not care about Diplomatic Victory, or perhaps some were gunning for victory points so there wasn't enough votes against you. I am not sure how your votes went, or if you have a lot of emergencies, or how you gained your points. I won my Diplomatic Victory by voting, and only won because Eleanor voted for herself rather than join the anti-Canada bloc to take away a point from me. And again, I can see how this would be somewhat disappointing that you seemed to cruise to victory and won early before really getting to experience the new toys of the later eras. But to be honest the Diplomatic Victory is normally a bit of a slog it seems. It could do with needing more points to win, but combined with more ways to get victory points beyond voting and emergencies.

    Sometimes the stars just align in certain ways. I've had a game or two where absolutely no AI was trying for culture. One I remember I was trying for a science win when I started receiving notifications of my cultural dominance over civs. When checking the rankings, I saw I was way ahead with culture and tourism without even planning any of it. So much so that I couldn't get my science to catch up in time and so just took the cultural win.

    Don't think that at all. Just the video under discussion is fully about a couple of big gold-related exploits that can be done in the game. But the exploits have to be actively done by the player (well, the free units for Mali not so much, but does require a fair bit of set up and luck to get the right city state). If you don't engage in them, then they have no effect on your gaming experience, other than perhaps knowing that they are there.

    The pillaging issue is an interesting one. I wouldn't really call it an exploit. It is something that the AI can engage in and profit from, though they likely don't really realize the advantage to pillaging all the tiles they can see. For myself, I still pillage, but only in the course of war. I don't delay taking a city just so that I can pillage every last tile. I will still send my cavalry off to pillage strategic resource mines or vulnerable districts on the way, but I'm not burning down every mine and farm I see. Just fighting a war in a way that I think would tactically be done ... deny the opponent valuable resources and infrastructure, and take the targets I am aiming for efficiently. The numbers will likely (hopefully) get tweaked in an update patch, or more hopefully they'll assign grievances to pillaging actions.

    Yes, sorry, the question was totally rhetorical. I had actually assumed you didn't use any exploit, hence why you were enquiring about it from having seen the video.

    Totally agree with you. I am not one to beeline as well, other than if my current game I decide I want a certain tech, such as my current Ottomans game, where the bombards are becoming obsolete and not packing the punch I need to get the Dutch capital I am after, so I will likely focus on getting to artillery so that I can continue my campaign.

    I like some challenge too, but I am perhaps a little more casual in regards to Civ nowadays. I want to have an experience, building an empire and competing against a number of rival civs on some strange different world from our own. It's why I don't go for Immortal or Deity, I don't want the stress and restricted build queues to survive the early game, and I too would like to perhaps build Stonehenge or the Pyramids and not have to just shrug and not even try for them.

    I hope that these bugs and quirks can be worked out for you. I have been trying to get a different game up and running with some mods and have ended up with seemingly random CTDs, so I can understand the frustration with something that is ruining what you would like to be a fun experience.

    For me, though, it seems the game has hit it's objective. The AIs and systems have proved to be engaging enough to keep my clicking one more turn, and I often make it to the Information and now Future eras with at least a couple of the AI still competitive in culture and science (though perhaps I have seen another bug ... twice now I have had Flat Earther agenda leaders who were my main competitors for the science victory. It's a bit odd to be told how useless looking to space is, when they are launching satellites and moon missions. Though I guess technically the agenda is against other civs that pursue science and space.)

    I will also say that some mods may help improve your game, so I wouldn't outright discount them from your future games. There are UI mods that vastly help provide more transparency of numbers (they don't things you can't find out, just save you the hassle of digging down into various menus to see information that is readily available). There are mods that slow the pace of the game, so that might allow you to more fully experience late games. I have been using a mod that helps the AI promote its units, and that has helped provide a more challenging experience in wars. I have also been trying out some mods that modify the resources needed for units and to tweak global warming, hoping to find something that is more fitting for how I would like these mechanics to work.
     
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