Civilization elimination thread

[DGDobrev]

The promised Babylon vs Korea duel update comes

After 3 games with various conditions, I reached the following conclusions:

- In a war game, Babylon overpowers Korea easily if they open with Tradition/Liberty, stop at NC and go heavy on production, expansion and military techs. Korea simply needs time to get there as they have to cope with their own happiness problems.
- In a war game, stopping on Education with Babylon is a relatively even outcome, as Korea manages to get their own GS along with a bunch of specialists in the cities and thus gain ground.
- in peaceful conditions, Korea with Liberty beats Babylon's 1-city streamlining towards Astronomy for one very simple reason - Babylon can't control their happiness. They are bound to get an unwanted golden age which squarely destroys the Rationalism jump, while at the same time Korea gets a GA (from Amphitheater's Specialist) and GS (from finishing Liberty) which beats Babylon's planted GS. This can be helped by starting in a 1-2 luxury location. Anything more than a few luxuries nets you a golden age and your Rationalism dreams are toast.
- in peaceful conditions, Babylon with Liberty vs Korea with liberty is almost an even game after a point, with Korea slowly getting the upper hand due to their UA.

 

[Genghis.Khan]

Babylon 8
Inca 4 (-2)
Korea 6 (+1)

 

[woodshadows]

Babylon 8
Inca 6
Korea 5

My first vote. Sorry its late. I've played all three recently. I agree Inca are too hills dependent, as an earlier poster said, try them on a water map! X)

Babylon beats Korea because the early Academy causes a snowball, and Koreas UA encourages you to build the GL, which near impossible above Emperor!

I seem to get the great library on Immortal all the time.. unless Ramses is in the game. Gotta really target it though, delay second city to make sure you grab it, go on production focus, chop forests if you can.

 

[woodshadows]

Babylon 8
Inca 4 (-2)
Korea 6 (+1)

no reasons - no vote

Babylon 8
Inca 6
Korea 5

 

[woodshadows]

The promised Babylon vs Korea duel update comes

After 3 games with various conditions, I reached the following conclusions:

- In a war game, Babylon overpowers Korea easily if they open with Tradition/Liberty, stop at NC and go heavy on production, expansion and military techs. Korea simply needs time to get there as they have to cope with their own happiness problems.
- In a war game, stopping on Education with Babylon is a relatively even outcome, as Korea manages to get their own GS along with a bunch of specialists in the cities and thus gain ground.
- in peaceful conditions, Korea with Liberty beats Babylon's 1-city streamlining towards Astronomy for one very simple reason - Babylon can't control their happiness. They are bound to get an unwanted golden age which squarely destroys the Rationalism jump, while at the same time Korea gets a GA (from Amphitheater's Specialist) and GS (from finishing Liberty) which beats Babylon's planted GS. This can be helped by starting in a 1-2 luxury location. Anything more than a few luxuries nets you a golden age and your Rationalism dreams are toast.
- in peaceful conditions, Babylon with Liberty vs Korea with liberty is almost an even game after a point, with Korea slowly getting the upper hand due to their UA.

I must not be aware of some strategy, how does a golden age affect Rationalism? .. when you're in a golden age does that suddenly not count as 'empire in happiness' for the 15% (or whatever it is) boost from rationalism opener?

 

[Mesix]

I must not be aware of some strategy, how does a golden age affect Rationalism? .. when you're in a golden age does that suddenly not count as 'empire in happiness' for the 15% (or whatever it is) boost from rationalism opener?

When you are in a GA, you get bonus . This could be enough to tip the scale and make you pop a 7th (unnecessary) policy before you hit the Renaissance. This is assuming that you want to finish one (and only one) policy tree and open Rationalism ASAP when you unlock the Renaissance Era.

 

[kamex]

I seem to get the great library on Immortal all the time.. unless Ramses is in the game. Gotta really target it though, delay second city to make sure you grab it, go on production focus, chop forests if you can.

Hmm, would you mind explaining in more detail? I often see into go in the turn 40's!! So whats your build order, scout, worker, then try to chop it? Pottery > Writing , Mining as the tech order?

 

[woodshadows]

When you are in a GA, you get bonus . This could be enough to tip the scale and make you pop a 7th (unnecessary) policy before you hit the Renaissance. This is assuming that you want to finish one (and only one) policy tree and open Rationalism ASAP when you unlock the Renaissance Era.

ah gotcha. is it that hard to manufacture unhappiness in your empire? sell/give away all your lux to avoid any more happiness from filling the golden age meter

 

[DGDobrev]

Exactly. A golden age, or a second popped +20 culture ruin simply makes you overshoot, which in terms destroys your tactics. You can control this by selling luxuries to AI or not working the luxuries at all (but what would be the point of having unimproved tiles?) but in my test it is not allowed to trade, as the big idea is to find which one does better.

 

[Mesix]

The promised Babylon vs Korea duel update comes

After 3 games with various conditions, I reached the following conclusions:

- In a war game, Babylon overpowers Korea easily if they open with Tradition/Liberty, stop at NC and go heavy on production, expansion and military techs. Korea simply needs time to get there as they have to cope with their own happiness problems.
- In a war game, stopping on Education with Babylon is a relatively even outcome, as Korea manages to get their own GS along with a bunch of specialists in the cities and thus gain ground.
- in peaceful conditions, Korea with Liberty beats Babylon's 1-city streamlining towards Astronomy for one very simple reason - Babylon can't control their happiness. They are bound to get an unwanted golden age which squarely destroys the Rationalism jump, while at the same time Korea gets a GA (from Amphitheater's Specialist) and GS (from finishing Liberty) which beats Babylon's planted GS. This can be helped by starting in a 1-2 luxury location. Anything more than a few luxuries nets you a golden age and your Rationalism dreams are toast.
- in peaceful conditions, Babylon with Liberty vs Korea with liberty is almost an even game after a point, with Korea slowly getting the upper hand due to their UA.

Do you have any benchmarks from your tests. I am curious what turn each civ can finish Education, enter various eras (especially the Renaissance and Industrial eras), and generate great people (especially GS). In my experience, Babylon develops a research lead very early which is difficult for Korea to catch up with.

 

[DGDobrev]

I do. I took about 40 screens during the failed Babylon rationalism jump due to the golden age. I can post a bunch if necessary. What's worse, the failed jump allowed Korea to have 63 BPT at T101 versus 52 from Babylon. Awful.

EDIT: Still, Korea was helped by the Messenger of the Gods pantheon. Messenger of the Gods + planted GS from the liberty finisher + GA or GM from specialists beats the solitary GS from Babylon. Besides, it takes a while to get the second GS out while Korea can count on a few GP for extra science quickly.

 

[woodshadows]

Hmm, would you mind explaining in more detail? I often see into go in the turn 40's!! So whats your build order, scout, worker, then try to chop it? Pottery > Writing , Mining as the tech order?

I don't even do anything particularly extreme like that, I generally build a monument first, worker second, don't bother with a scout, after the worker I build great library. I usually automate my worker which sometimes chops a forest or two for me, sometimes not. But I don't really follow any 'plan', often I'm just beelining writing and figure I might as well build great library rather than normal library I would want to build anyhow.


E: I imagine the larger the map you play the lower your chances of getting it become as well. I generally play standard type map with 8 civs.. and with Ramses in the game I rarely get more than one ancient/classical wonder, generally a lame one like mausoleum of halicarnassus

 

[PhilBowles]

Babylon 8
Inca 4
Korea 6

I too miss free movement in hills when not playing Inca. Just as I miss not being able to disembark then move when not playing as Denmark. True, Inca is a large cut above other 'theme civs' in power, and the start bias can make the capital a production powerhouse later in the game (though since terrace farms themselves need to be researched, it can be bad for early growth), but I've said before I think the final battle should be between Babylon and Korea.

In which conflict I'm on the Korean side, again simply because I find them more interesting and versatile, and I love the UUs. I'm surprised there are so many players here who haven't sufficiently explored the world with scouts and triremes long before Astronomy, or who don't use embarked scouts for most of their ocean exploration later. The fact that it does take more work to get the most from their UA than for Babylon is what makes them more interesting to play.

Babylon beats Korea because the early Academy causes a snowball, and Koreas UA encourages you to build the GL, which near impossible above Emperor!

I paid particular attention to the Library science boost in my last game as Korea, and it saved 9 turns on my research towards Philosophy. As far as I can tell from past games, you don't get a greater science boost from completing Great Library instead (i.e. you don't get a boost for the Wonder plus a boost for the Library).

Exactly. A golden age, or a second popped +20 culture ruin simply makes you overshoot, which in terms destroys your tactics. You can control this by selling luxuries to AI or not working the luxuries at all (but what would be the point of having unimproved tiles?) but in my test it is not allowed to trade, as the big idea is to find which one does better.

The only resource tile I tend not to improve is bananas, because 4 food is usually sufficient for one tile and I'd rather have the 2 science than a plantation.

I do. I took about 40 screens during the failed Babylon rationalism jump due to the golden age. I can post a bunch if necessary. What's worse, the failed jump allowed Korea to have 63 BPT at T101 versus 52 from Babylon. Awful

I don't have a screenshot, but I was on a similar BPT by T100 from memory. I also failed to jump to Rationalism soon enough (and had an early GA of my own - damn Antwerp...) and ended up getting two policies before I could open Rationalism, which set me back. The same technique I praised before of using amphitheaters for early bpt along with culture gen to speed through the policy trees sped me through too fast, at least since I also took The Oracle.

 

[maurcus]

Babylon 9 (+1) fairly versatile
Inca 2 (-2) so meh and rather bland its all a bout the hills
Korea 6

 

[drakar8888]

Babylon 9
Inca 3
Korea 4

+1 I have noticed that Inca have a start bias to get an awesome start, not only around the capital but also in surrounding lands. Then again my sample size is not that big.

-2 Korea - getting the 3rd place is quite the accomplishment considering they should have gone before arabia, siam and china, sorry to all korea lovers

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Seriously, at this point anyone who tries to make an argument for their civ of choice by saying one of the other remaining ones is BAD should just be laughed off.

Babylon 7
Inca 4
Korea 4

Inca just because to me, building giant uber-production powerhouse cities is more fun than jetting through the tech tree. YMMV.

 

[lb1785]

Babylon 7
Inca 2
Korea 5

I downvote Inca for being a bit too dependent on their situation on the map.

As for Korea vs. Babylon, I know this has been discussed at great lengths already. I'll just add that I find Korea more varied to play with, since unlike Babylon you are not focused on GS generation only. With Korea, any kind of specialist/GP will put the UA into use. Plus the two Korean UUs are kind of fun, you don't use them as you would use their non-unique counterparts.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

How many maps don't have any hills nearby?

 

[woodshadows]

As Korea, can you build a library then sell the library, then build it again, perpetually for the science boost granted for building in the capital? I mean, of course it probably would only be good early game while your population is still low, but still.

 

[PhilBowles]

As Korea, can you build a library then sell the library, then build it again, perpetually for the science boost granted for building in the capital? I mean, of course it probably would only be good early game while your population is still low, but still.

No - this was explicitly fixed in Gods & Kings, since it had been exploited previously.