Civilization: Game vs. History

[unpossible251]

Hey morningcalm;

Yeah, great thread. Actually I quit the forum for a few months, seemed like a limited range of ways to complain about the AI was just going around in circles but this thread inspired me to log in again. Fantastic job, brush off anyone who won't let u have fun your own way, and I'd like to get involved.

I haven't downloaded the dlc, but i'll volunteer for Gitarja. I speak indonesian alright, which is far, far removed from whatever classical Javanese i heard her speak on Youtube, but I might be able to dig up something over the research. Gimme any early links you had lying around.

 

[Morningcalm]

Hey morningcalm;

Yeah, great thread. Actually I quit the forum for a few months, seemed like a limited range of ways to complain about the AI was just going around in circles but this thread inspired me to log in again. Fantastic job, brush off anyone who won't let u have fun your own way, and I'd like to get involved.

I haven't downloaded the dlc, but i'll volunteer for Gitarja. I speak indonesian alright, which is far, far removed from whatever classical Javanese i heard her speak on Youtube, but I might be able to dig up something over the research. Gimme any early links you had lying around.

Thanks unpossible! Welcome back to the forums! I (and likely many others interested in Majapahit history) would be grateful to have your assistance. I do have sources on some leaders but Dyah Gitarja isn't one of them--from Googling around so far all I can conclude is that there aren't many English sources on her. I did discover that almost no sources call her "Dyah Gitarja" though--most use her full name so maybe "Tribhuwana" would generate more results generally (though in that regard I only found a few notes on a sculpture, nothing about her actual reign or character). Gitarja's Wikipedia entry also doesn't cite many sources (there are only two, one of them being the announcement of her being chosen to lead Indonesia in Civ VI).

Any Indonesian sources you find would be great--otherwise we may have just to keep searching and/or rely on Wikipedia (which, due to the lack of cited sources, makes me somewhat nervous).

 

[montalaar]

if i am not mistaken, i counted around 8 mentions of "(likely male)" in author arguments about korean leader.

so, if i understand it right, author somehow disqualifies counterarguments of opponents because they are made by ... males? not once or twice. really?

 

[God of Kings]

Gitarja's leader screen looks as if she were leading Atlantis.

 

[Morningcalm]

if i am not mistaken, i counted around 8 mentions of "(likely male)" in author arguments about korean leader.

so, if i understand it right, author somehow disqualifies counterarguments of opponents because they are made by ... males? not once or twice. really?

I never "disqualifie[d]" counterarguments re: Seondeok because they were made by (likely male) persons. I discuss the anti-Seondeok views and point out why they are wrong and/or lacking in context based on extant historical evidence and scholarship.

I say "likely male" because several (though not all) of the anti-Seondeok remarks directly referenced her being chosen to lead Korea just because she's female. As for critiques of Seondeok that glorify Bidam, I have to assume they come from males since Bidam's historical rallying cry for his rebellion was distinctly anti-female. As I also mentioned, the (male) Confucian author of the Samguk-sagi, Kim Bushik, describes males as being stronger and thus more fit for leadership than females (and his remarks on it being fortunate the Silla state didn't collapse during Seondeok's time given Silla's leadership by a female). Such remarks distinctly mirror some of the tone and substance of certain criticisms of Seondeok being chosen to lead Korea in Civ VI.

Further, critics of Seondeok have also criticized "pro-female" sources like a certain Ewha University publication which has been discussed on Reddit for example, which again suggests these criticisms come from persons who are male. Again, if you find evidence that any of these critics of Seondeok are female, please present that, and I can amend the Seondeok post accordingly (I may amend it to simply read "anti-female").

(And for whatever worth, I'm male too, so it's not like I'm being anti-male when I mention that many (aggressively) derogatory remarks about Seondeok likely come from males. Furthermore, it is arguably relevant given the irony that Seondeok, castigated for being a *female* ruler in her time, is also being castigated now for being a *female* ruler leading Korea as well, among other things.)

Frankly though, I think further discussions of gender politics re: Seondeok should take place in this thread only in the context of historically related discussions of Seondeok.

Gitarja's leader screen looks as if she were leading Atlantis.

Indeed! And the musical theme somehow evokes the sea for me too. Unsure why, but it is a pleasant thing indeed. Indonesia has one of the strongest musical themes in the game.

 

[unpossible251]

I

...but it is a pleasant thing indeed. Indonesia has one of the strongest musical themes in the game.

mmm i haven't heard the whole thing, only the bit from youtube's "meet the leader" minute. But, what you're hearing sounds like a Javanese gamelan orchestra. Sometimes called an Angklung orchestra, its thought that the English word "Clong!!!" (as in, the noise of a bell) is not actually onomatopeia, but in fact a loan word from angklung.

Anyway, its probably Javanese (jogjakarta maybe) but I might be wrong, there are literally hundreds of tribes it could also be. Just, you know, majapahit, likely to be Java.

 

[Veriaqa]

Hi, Morningcalm. I'm Javanese Indonesian. I can give you some info before you begin your research on Majapahit.

Majapahit is a strange empire. For an empire that supposedly control much of Indonesia, Malaysia, etc, it leaves no traces at all. The only physical evidence of a kingdom named Majapahit all concentrated on Java island. Many historian, majority of historian actually believe that Majapahit is only a small kingdom on Java that on one occasion repelled an invasion from Mongol. But... if you talk to most Indonesian, especially Javanese they will claim that Majapahit is a huge empire comparable to Rome that controlled the whole southeast Asia. It's about pride for them. I'm Javanese too, but I only talk about facts. I don't force legends, myths, and oral traditions on to my history.

So, I hope with that little information you can proceed cautiously on your research of Majapahit.

 

[Morningcalm]

Did some quick write-up on Saladin's theme but much of the analysis might have to wait on someone locating official word on where the source melody comes from (at least for English sources it's quite tough--some say it's Lebanese, others Turkish, others Russian, etc etc).

mmm i haven't heard the whole thing, only the bit from youtube's "meet the leader" minute. But, what you're hearing sounds like a Javanese gamelan orchestra. Sometimes called an Angklung orchestra, its thought that the English word "Clong!!!" (as in, the noise of a bell) is not actually onomatopeia, but in fact a loan word from angklung.

Anyway, its probably Javanese (jogjakarta maybe) but I might be wrong, there are literally hundreds of tribes it could also be. Just, you know, majapahit, likely to be Java.

Ah, you should listen to it! Each incarnation of the song is wondrous. In lieu of an official game soundtrack with the full theme for purchase I've taken to listening to it on YouTube to fall asleep, and also listening to other versions of it (the original source melodies). Might be cool to have some musical analysis mixed in for Dyah Gitarja, though I am unsure if the source melodies date to her time.

Hi, Morningcalm. I'm Javanese Indonesian. I can give you some info before you begin your research on Majapahit.

Majapahit is a strange empire. For an empire that supposedly control much of Indonesia, Malaysia, etc, it leaves no traces at all. The only physical evidence of a kingdom named Majapahit all concentrated on Java island. Many historian, majority of historian actually believe that Majapahit is only a small kingdom on Java that on one occasion repelled an invasion from Mongol. But... if you talk to most Indonesian, especially Javanese they will claim that Majapahit is a huge empire comparable to Rome that controlled the whole southeast Asia. It's about pride for them. I'm Javanese too, but I only talk about facts. I don't force legends, myths, and oral traditions on to my history.

So, I hope with that little information you can proceed cautiously on your research of Majapahit.

Interesting. Do you have any books/sources for Dyah Gitarja that unpossible might be able to use for his entry on her?

 

[Veriaqa]

Wikipedia entry on her is pretty accurate and complete. But if you want you can search for the translations of Negarakretagama or Pararaton. Both books written in Old Javanese language and are the 2 main sources on everything Majapahit. But like I said before, both books are not history books and are filled with myths and unproven facts.

 

[Janskey]

This is a great thread, keep 'em coming! Always love learning something new, and the Great War series is ending soon anyways, so I need to get my history fix from somewhere else. https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGreatWar

 

[Morningcalm]

Thanks Janskey! Will do! I will do Tomyris or Pericles next. Updated Saladin's music entry after some correspondence with Geoff Knorr, and because the song's contested origin is quite novel, I post it here below:

Leader Music (Links to Medieval Version)
Banat Iskandaria—The Saladin-led Arabian Empire's song appears (at least officially, on Geoff Knorr's website) to be based on Banat Iskandaria or The Girls of Alexandria (arguably fitting as Egypt is where Saladin began his rise to power). However, Geoff Knorr (the main composer for Civ VI's themes) said that as far as he can tell, the actual origin of the song is unknown. Many countries in the Balkans and Near East claim the song as their own, as shown in the documentary "Whose is This Song?" (directed by Adela Peeva) which shows how various Balkan countries, Turkey, and others passionately, aggressively claim the song as their own (#nationalism). The song has various incarnations and names, and each has a different set of lyrics and meaning--there is, for example, the Muslim song Talama Ashku Galami which is a praise song for Allah, Turks claim it for Turkey (one of the many songs there based on the melody is named Katibim).

As far as the documentary makes clear, the song was performed as early as 1700, as an Armenian, Ottoman, Sephardic Jewish and even Persian song, travelling widely over the Near East (see Eleni Elefterias-Kostakidis' "'Whose Is This Song?' Nationalism and Identity through the lens of Adela Peeva, p. 39). One alternate origin story which may be of interest comes from "koredozo" on Reddit: "There's a theory that it was created by an Iraqi composer named Mullah Osman Al-Muselli or first appeared in an Armenian operetta in the 19th century, both of which would make it appropriate for Saladin (who was born in Tikrit to Kurdish ancestors originally from what is today Armenia,) but no one really knows its origins."

How does all this relate to Saladin, you might ask? As Geoff puts it (correctly), "[t]he Civ VI leader for Arabia, Saladin, historically would have controlled many of the lands that claim the melody as their own, which is one of the reasons I chose the melody for Arabia." Indeed, as mentioned above, Saladin's army included, for example, Armenians and Turks--the modern forebears of the very people who would argue over who actually made the song many years later. The song perhaps ironically unifies many regions in the same way Saladin did, albeit through their joint arguments with each other over ownership of the song. And such quarrels explain why Reddit is replete with Turkish people claiming that the song is "Turkish" and therefore inappropriate for Civ VI's Arabia, as well as people stating that the song reminds them of a Boney M. song about Rasputin.

 

[Brianstorm]

Not just history related but game wise as well, Firaxis is darkening hair too much. Cathy, Harald, Pedro, Philip, and perhaps Tomyris should all have varying degrees of red and blond. I can barely tell the difference between some of the leaders in the smaller portraits (Pedro and Philip specifically, but Catherine also needs to be changed for ease of use)

 

[Zaarin]

Not just history related but game wise as well, Firaxis is darkening hair too much. Cathy, Harald, Pedro, Philip, and perhaps Tomyris should all have varying degrees of red and blond. I can barely tell the difference between some of the leaders in the smaller portraits (Pedro and Philip specifically, but Catherine also needs to be changed for ease of use)

I agree with most of this (Philip II was darkish blond as ironically depicted by an in game portrait of him, Pedro was auburn, Harald was described as blond), but why CdM and Tomyris? CdM's portraits portray her with greying black hair (as she's depicted in game), and Tomyris was Iranian (in the broader sense) and probably had dark hair (either dark red or brown to black, cf. modern Ossetians).

But if it weren't for Barbarossa's ridiculous fire engine red hair, I'd suspect the devs to be incapable of red hair. I still suspect them of being incapable of realistic red hair, but I do understand capturing a realistic red is difficult--red hair is a subtle, unusual color and it's too easy to cross over into parody territory (Disney's Ariel and Civ6's Barbarossa both cross waaaaaay into parody territory).

 

[Brianstorm]

I agree with most of this (Philip II was darkish blond as ironically depicted by an in game portrait of him, Pedro was auburn, Harald was described as blond), but why CdM and Tomyris? CdM's portraits portray her with greying black hair (as she's depicted in game), and Tomyris was Iranian (in the broader sense) and probably had dark hair (either dark red or brown to black, cf. modern Ossetians).

But if it weren't for Barbarossa's ridiculous fire engine red hair, I'd suspect the devs to be incapable of red hair. I still suspect them of being incapable of realistic red hair, but I do understand capturing a realistic red is difficult--red hair is a subtle, unusual color and it's too easy to cross over into parody territory (Disney's Ariel and Civ6's Barbarossa both cross waaaaaay into parody territory).

I don't mind the broad strokes but about half the leaders are indistinguishable from each other, everyone who doesn't have black hair has dark dark brown hair. If you're playing even an epic game, it becomes a chore.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't mind the broad strokes but about half the leaders are indistinguishable from each other, everyone who doesn't have black hair has dark dark brown hair. If you're playing even an epic game, it becomes a chore.

Like I said, I agree about Phillip, Pedro, and Harald, but CdM and Tomyris seem pretty accurate. Shame we don't have red-haired Elizabeth rather than getting stuck with Victoria. Nevertheless, it's just sort of a fact of human existence that the majority of humans have dark hair and eyes.

(On a different note, I haven't forgotten about Gilgamesh, but I've been busy with work and I'm going on vacation again soon, so it'll probably be a couple weeks.)

 

[Stomper66]

Apparently lots of the English Monarchs has red hair, William the Conquer, Richard the Lion-Heart and Henry VIII to name a few. Victoria is a bit bland I think England and France in particular should get the India treatment with alternate leaders.

He loved intellectual discussions and is arguably portrayed as more a scholar-ruler than a warrior in Civ VI, though he is primarily known for his military successes against the Crusaders, in a time when war and peace went hand-in-hand with religion. He is well-known even today, having appeared in Ridley Scott’s Kingdom of Heaven film

I loved Saladin's depiction in Kingdom of Heaven he was such a badass. He looked scary and intimidating but his intelligence, chivalry and respect for other religions definitely come through. I really dislike his representation in Civ6 though I've read before that the guy looks like a travelling Merchant and not the great military leader that he was. Put him in armour and give him a sword. All this islamic armour and weaponry is beautiful as well in its craftsmanship.

 

[Morningcalm]

(On a different note, I haven't forgotten about Gilgamesh, but I've been busy with work and I'm going on vacation again soon, so it'll probably be a couple weeks.)

Looking forward to it! He should be fairly easy given that he's legendary and most his Civ VI stuff can be separated from the Sumerian stuff. So unless you see a connection between Gilgamesh's reign and the war cart and ziggurat, you wouldn't necessarily need to analyze their historicity as they relate to Gilgamesh for example. Though you should feel free to analyze the Sumerian civ as a whole if you like. (I don't think I would mind the more leader-focused thread here becoming an analysis of the historicity of each civ, including aspects outside of the leader). Saladin is the rare example of a Civ leader very heavily tied to the civ he represents in all aspects, including the musical theme and civ uniques so I analyzed all of that, whereas for Seondeok I didn't analyze the seowon or the theme music Arirang too much (both relate to the Choson Dynasty rather than the Three Kingdoms period of Korea).

I loved Saladin's depiction in Kingdom of Heaven he was such a badass. He looked scary and intimidating but his intelligence, chivalry and respect for other religions definitely come through. I really dislike his representation in Civ6 though I've read before that the guy looks like a travelling Merchant and not the great military leader that he was. Put him in armour and give him a sword. All this islamic armour and weaponry is beautiful as well in its craftsmanship.

I also really liked Saladin's portrayal in the Kingdom of Heaven movie (excellent actor, excellent costume) though they show him as vaguely atheist in the movie. Civ VI more accurately conveys Saladin's Muslim zeal. Also, the scene in the Kingdom of Heaven where he props the fallen Christian cross back up after taking Jerusalem is inaccurate--he actually did the opposite, according to Jerusalem: A Biography (mentioned in my Saladin analysis in this thread), though Saladin showed tolerance towards Christians and Jews in other ways.

Saladin is primarily known as a military commander, yes, and I think they could have portrayed him with armor and weapons as well--that being said, it seems Firaxis wanted to focus on Saladin's scholasticism and perhaps give him white robes in that regard, or maybe they even gave him white robes to (implicitly) recall the robes of an imam to give a sense of Saladin's religious devotion perhaps. Saladin did wear silk robes when receiving delegates, though, so I guess while armor would fit the Civ philosophy of portraying military leaders, it is arguably more historically accurate to show Saladin in his silk robes (though I would argue they should all have been red rather than white per the contemporaneous portrait of him from the 12th century AD).

 

[Zaarin]

most his Civ VI stuff can be separated from the Sumerian stuff.

Essentially war carts are the only thing Sumerian about his civ, and even then we don't know if they were actually used in combat (though I still think they were a good choice). Ziggurats were Sumerian, but 1) the Sumerians called them unir or hursaĝgalem and 2) the actual UI looks nothing like a Sumerian ziggurat (plus ziggurats were always built in the city center, so I would have gone with a monument replace personally).

it seems Firaxis wanted to focus on Saladin's scholasticism

Which I thought was an...interesting choice. I mean, Saladin was interested in scholarly pursuits, no question, but it seems odd that they chose a ruler whose chief legacy is as a consummate chivalrous knight (in the European sense) over an Abbasid more explicitly remembered for their scholarly pursuits if that's the image they wanted to pursue. I understand choosing Saladin as a big personality, but if I were portraying him I would have depicted him more as, well, a knight.

 

[Stomper66]

Saladin is primarily known as a military commander, yes, and I think they could have portrayed him with armor and weapons as well--that being said, it seems Firaxis wanted to focus on Saladin's scholasticism and perhaps give him white robes in that regard, or maybe they even gave him white robes to (implicitly) recall the robes of an imam to give a sense of Saladin's religious devotion perhaps. Saladin did wear silk robes when receiving delegates, though, so I guess while armor would fit the Civ philosophy of portraying military leaders, it is arguably more historically accurate to show Saladin in his silk robes (though I would argue they should all have been red rather than white per the contemporaneous portrait of him from the 12th century AD).

Which I thought was an...interesting choice. I mean, Saladin was interested in scholarly pursuits, no question, but it seems odd that they chose a ruler whose chief legacy is as a consummate chivalrous knight (in the European sense) over an Abbasid more explicitly remembered for their scholarly pursuits if that's the image they wanted to pursue. I understand choosing Saladin as a big personality, but if I were portraying him I would have depicted him more as, well, a knight.

I hope that Firaxis made this decision based on what you say and not for some bull PC reason, like they didn't want to give the only muslim leader in the game a sword and armour to appear war like. There are leaders like Hojo Tokimune who appear to be both scholars and warlords. Whenever I interact with Saladin in the game it still feels like I'm dealing with a Merchant not a Badass Warrior Sultan but I don't know thats just me.

 

[Karmah]

I hope that Firaxis made this decision based on what you say and not for some bull PC reason, like they didn't want to give the only muslim leader in the game a sword and armour to appear war like. There are leaders like Hojo Tokimune who appear to be both scholars and warlords. Whenever I interact with Saladin in the game it still feels like I'm dealing with a Merchant not a Badass Warrior Sultan but I don't know thats just me.

To be very blunt , it feels like I'm interacting with the merchant at the start of disney's alladin.