Civilization: Game vs. History
- Thread starter Morningcalm
- Start date
altayrneto
Prince
And also, when the game were launched (and developed), ISIS and the migrant crisis in EU were in highlight, bringing back some of the prejudice against Islamics. I think they decided portray Saladin the least militarist possible in order to avoid misunderstanding and bad advertising, as people could think they were representing Islamic people as beligerant and violent.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
As far as Saladin is concerned, I would have personally preferred they used the armored headgarb shown in their original leaked leaders image list, but I do think his robes are more developed than those of the Aladdin merchant, haha. And he doesn't have such a big nose. 
In progress:
Tomyris (Scythian Civilization)
Tomyris, a 6th-century BC warrior queen of the Massagetae, is in Civilization VI portrayed as the queen of the Scythians, and notably appears as a badass warrior queen in Rejected Princesses, where the story of her (supposed) bloody victory against the invading Achaemenid monarch Cyrus the Great (also in Civ VI) was first recounted to much pop culture acclaim. Now, however, with her appearance in Civ VI, she has achieved even more notoriety, and the top results for "Tomyris" on Google and YouTube alike include much Civ VI-related material, as one of the "Stuff You Missed in History Class" podcast hosts (talking with the creator of Rejected Princesses) even notes: "When I was confirming how to pronounce her name, the first thing that came up was, like, the video about the game and how--like, here's our new playable character!" (a few seconds after the 20 minute mark). But Tomyris' story of her victory against Cyrus may not have been fully true, for conflicting stories of Cyrus' death abound (including an account of him dying peacefully, or in a different battle against different people).
Furthermore, she may never have led the "Scythians" as the Massagetae are not, contrary to some conflations ancient (see footnote 262) and modern, actually Scythians, and the then-Greek and Roman historians who chronicled the Scythians weren't the best at telling apart the various Scythian people anyway (including the "Saka", who, while closely related to the Scythians, were a distinct people known for their pointy hats).
There is also the odd incorporation of Scythia's knack for faith-based victories as well as combat-based victories in Tomyris' leader ability--but how historical is that? Was the Scythian worship of the sun, which Tomyris cited when threatening Cyrus, a worthy basis for Scythia's predilection for religious victories in Civ VI? For this entry I will not be analyzing Tomyris' Civilopedia entry in depth, as it more or less is like the Wikipedia article on her, which is more or less like Herodotus' account of her (which is where we derive almost all knowledge on Tomyris from, outside of a few other ancient authors, one of whom, Jordanes, mentions the city of "Tomi" which Tomyris named after herself (scroll down to section 61)).
Appearance
Tomyris' in-game appearance matches almost exactly her image in the infamous leaked leader picture sheet which first heralded her inclusion in Civ VI. Notably, Tomyris in-game has the same pleated/braided hair bands and red, white and blue triangular arm clothing adornment. (The picture itself upon which her in-game portrayal is based reminds me of Osprey military books, but I was unable to locate the exact original source.) The image is apparently that of a female Scythian warrior and as a warrior herself, Tomyris may have looked somewhat like that. We have no actual historical record on what Tomyris looked like at all (even in description) to contradict such an image.
However, Tomyris in-game wears a wondrous gold or bronze helm (possibly based on this one) and a torso-protecting gold or bronze set of armor. She also notably lacks a bow and arrows unlike the female Scythian warrior in the picture, though she carries the sword with its distinctive slender blade and upside-down V shaped guard portrayed in the image, albeit with more decoration in gold and/or bronze. Herodotus' description of Massagetae clothing and military garb ("Their arms are all either of gold or brass...for head-gear, belts, and girdles, of gold") matches that of Tomyris in-game appearance adorned with gold and/or bronze (and such literary descriptions are confirmed by amazing finds of Scythian gold artifacts archaeologists have uncovered, many of them now in the St Petersburg Hermitage museum).
Interestingly, in her original concept art, Tomyris' helm more closely resembled that of the (Osprey?) image of the Scythian female warrior that her in-game portrayal is based on, though slightly more pointed to recall the famous pointy hats of the Saka perhaps. All in all though, a fairly accurate historical depiction of Tomyris, with the caveat that we have no historical records on what she looked like (and with a caveat I describe later below indicating the Massagetae and Scythians were not the same people, in which regard, the (Osprey?) image of the female Scythian warrior may not apply to the Massagetae warrior queen Tomyris).
Overall, a fairly "accurate" appearance, though in some ways its historicity is hard to judge. But Tomyris' bronze/gold armaments are definitely on point, and Firaxis (in a rather rare instance) here was quite faithful to extant images of the leader.
Leader Ability
"Killer of Cyrus": All units receive +5 Strength when attacking wounded units, and heal up to 30 hit points after killing a unit.
The story goes that Cyrus the Great met his death after battling Tomyris' Massagetae. After Cyrus initially proposed marriage to the widowed queen, Tomyris refused (knowing it was her territory, not her, that he was really courting), and Cyrus thereafter moved to fight the Massagetae to take their territory. Tomyris lost her son as a prisoner to Cyrus and asked for her son back. If Cyrus should refuse? Then, as Tomyris proclaimed, "I swear by the sun, the sovereign lord of the Massagetai, bloodthirsty as you are, I will give you your fill of blood." Tomyris' son asked Cyrus to release him from his bonds, and right after Cyrus did so, Tomyris' son committed suicide. Cyrus could therefore not fulfill Tomyris' request. Tomyris, learning of this, "collected all the forces of her kingdom" and, after a lengthy, violent battle, beat Cyrus in combat. Tomyris had Cyrus' corpse brought to her and beheaded it. Then she removed Cyrus' head and dipped in a skin full of wine, saying "thus I make good my threat, and give you your fill of blood".
Interestingly though, Herodotus' story of the head-defiling Tomyris also matches his description of Scythian custom with regards to the skulls of their enemies (see p. 9, paragraph 65). In his account, Scythians use the skulls of their enemies as drinking cups (and rich Scythians would line such skull cups with gold on the inside). While we don't know whether Tomyris drank from Cyrus skull, her use of it as a vessel for blood to fulfill in reality her cold promise to Cyrus certainly recalls the custom Herodotus mentions.
In gameplay terms, the ability reflects Scythian prowess in battle, against Cyrus the Great, who was then arguably one of the mightiest warrior rulers in the world. As Zigzagal points out in his Scythia strategy guide, Tomyris' leader ability gives Scythia "an edge in attrition battles". Per Herodotus' description of the fierce fighting between Cyrus and Tomyris, their battle was one of attrition: "Of all the combats in which the barbarians have engaged among themselves, I reckon this to have been the fiercest...the two armies stood apart and shot their arrows at each other; then, when their quivers were empty, they closed and fought hand-to-hand with lances and daggers; and thus they continued fighting for a length of time, neither choosing to give ground...At length the Massagetai prevailed." The emphasis on the length of the battle and the exhaustion of arrows shows the battle to have been one of exhaustion and attrition of a sort, and certainly a fierce one as well. So the bonus against wounded units reflects the ultimate Massagetae edge over the Persians there. Meanwhile, the healing upon successful kills clearly reflects Tomyris' sense of vindication at having defeated and killed Cyrus.
Tomyris' leader ability is interesting because it also works with and on religious units! Maybe her monks are bloodthirsty in religious combat? As Zigzagzigal points out in his Scythia strategy guide, and as he further discusses in this Reddit thread, Tomyris' leader ability is great for religious victories because religious units are somewhat tougher to heal than military units, and Tomyris' ability works to give Scythia much needed strength in long contests of attrition, whether military or religious in nature. While this is a fun ability gameplay-wise, from a historical perspective the religious angle in particular makes little sense. It is true that Tomyris cited the Scythian sun god when threatening Cyrus ("by the sun, the sovereign lord of the Massagetai"). But Scythia isn't exactly world famous for having lasting religious impact, and the Tomyris story didn't reflect any religious element at all, let alone martyrs dying in religious debate, so the religious angle appears ahistorical (if fun, gameplay wise) and more there to synergize with the kurgan, which in Scythia's in-game incarnation gives faith bonuses.
One must wonder whether Tomyris as a leader for "Scythia" makes sense. The Massagetae were not, according to Herodotus anyway, actually Scythians, but rather "resemble the Scythians" (emphasis mine) and "By many they are regarded as a Scythian race" (emphasis mine), though Herodotus takes pains to point out how all wives being held "in common" though each man has but one wife is a Massagetae custom and not a Scythian one, unlike what other "Hellenes" wrongly believe. Herodotus distinguishing the Massagetae from the Scythians is remarkable when one considers later ancient authors like Diodorus Siculus conflate the two (see footnote 262), just as Firaxis does in its Civilopedia entry on Tomyris, calling Tomyris an ancient Scythian “queen”. But Herodotus did not conflate the two, and it's fairly clear among historians today that ancient Greeks and Romans conflated numerous nomadic horse-riding peoples into a general "Scythian" category anyway. Further, other historians have deemed the Massagetae different from the Scythians. Says Ellis Hovells Minns in his Scythians and Greeks: A Survey of Ancient History and Archaeology on the North Coast of the Euxine, From the Danube to the Caucasus,
But perhaps the entire story of Tomyris is ahistorical. Though Herodotus considers the story the "most worthy of credit" among the (as he admits) multiple differing accounts of Cyrus' death, plenty of others suggest Cyrus died in a different battle or peacefully at home. Why might Herodotus have told this particular account of Cyrus' death? Because, as suggested by Dan Carlin in his "Hardcore History" podcast (forward to around the 3 hour 10 minute mark), not knowing the full truth of the matter, Herodotus may have picked the most sensational story, and one with a clear moral lesson about Persian overreach (and the follies of ambition). Ancient Greeks would likely have approved. Regardless of whether Tomyris even existed, her story is certainly a most entertaining one, filled with amazing quotes from Tomyris and even a great guest appearance by Croesus ("rich as Croesus") who advised Cyrus in his underhanded combat tactics. The Tomyris story is filled with just enough detail to be (vaguely) credible to the point of being deemed possible (by some historians at least).
Agenda
"Backstab Averse": Likes civilizations who are willing to establish a long-term Alliance. Dislikes civilizations who backstab and declare Surprise Wars.
This (in my opinion) poorly-named agenda (should have been "Honorable Warrior" IMO) clearly alludes to Tomyris' hatred of Cyrus for his underhanded tactics in defeating her son (which led to her son's suicide). Some commenters think this ability fits Tomyris' story (link to a Reddit thread about Tomyris' ability where user "Pluto_and_Charon" states "Scythia's agenda (Hates those who declare surprise wars) and Persia's bonuses to surprise wars work perfectly together!...Good job, Firaxis". Also, as the creator of "Rejected Princesses" discusses in a "Stuff You Missed in History Class" podcast episode around the 20:20 mark, he remarks that Tomyris' story is built into the mechanics of Civ VI (in reference to her "kinda ha[ving] a truce with Cyrus at the beginning and he basically betrayed her and she got bloody revenge on him so if you betray her, if you come up with an alliance with her in the game and then betray her, she will like get REALLY mad at you"). Tomyris' "Backstab Averse" agenda does also make gameplay sense in that it is the reverse of Cyrus' agenda, "Opportunist", which means he likes those who engage in Surprise Wars, but Cyrus' agenda is ahistorical since he rarely, if ever, engaged in "Surprise Wars" in the Civ VI sense.
While I agree the "Backstab Averse" agenda is sort of a nice proxy for Tomyris' story in some ways, it is not very historically aligned when one considers that Cyrus (per the Herodotus account) did not "backstab" Tomyris as such. Rather, Tomyris knew Cyrus was coming to declare war, and told Cyrus to cease bridge-making and either retire in peace or, if he truly desired war, retire to a place three days' march from the river to either initiate an attack on the Massagetae himself or allow the Massagetae to engage the Persians (and the Persians would so indicate this should be the case by retiring an equal distance). Cyrus deceitfully told Tomyris he would engage them himself, then left a camp with only a few soldiers and some wine as a lure for the Massagetae. When the Massagetae came upon this Persian camp, they defeated the Persian soldiers and began to drink Persian wine, which they were not used to, not having had much of it before. Thus they became drunk, and Cyrus then fell upon them, slaughtering many and capturing many prisoners, including Tomyris' son, Spargapises. Tomyris was enraged at this deceitful tactic. But it was no "backstabbing" for sure (there was no alliance between Cyrus and Tomyris, and both knew they would war upon each other), and it was not even a Surprise War as both knew they would war (Cyrus having declared to Tomyris that per her proposal, he would initiate battle upon the Massagetae himself).
This being said, the "Backstab Averse" agenda is a somewhat more forgiveably ahistorical representation when one considers Jordanes, a later Roman historian who states of Tomyris (scroll down to section 61) that "Though she could have stopped the approach of Cyrus at the river Araxes, yet she permitted him to cross, preferring to overcome him in battle rather than to thwart him by advantage of position. And so she did." In short, Tomyris could have attacked Cyrus as he was attempting to cross the river (a "surprise attack" perhaps, even if the attack was to be expected in such a situation as Scythia and Persia were arguably at war before that). But as an honorable warrior, she did not. So this agenda makes historical sense if we interpret cunning attacks as "surprise attacks" but I don't think such an interpretation really makes sense as a historical representation of Tomyris' story--if I attack embarked units as they attempt to enter my territory (after say, Cyrus declares war on me) is that somehow "backstabbing"? Not really.)
As for Tomyris' propensity for long-term alliances, we know she was an honorable warrior from Herodotus' story of her. We do not know if she ever made long-term alliances, however, which seems to be more a proxy for Tomyris being honorable. Though one might argue Tomyris found plenty of ways (in the Herodotus story) to be an honorable warrior without a single alliance.
In-game Spoken Language
Tomyris speaks Ossetian in-game, an eastern Iranian language. It has been theorized Ossetian is the closest linguistic descendant or relative to the Scythian Sarmatian language. Some of the lines in-game are broken, but the actual delivery of the lines appears to be that of a native speaker, according to user Tamu from Lingvoforum.net, who is a native speaker from Vladikavkaz (we know this courtesy of Civfanatics forum user Red Khan, who translated Tamu's Russian translation into English for our language translations of leader sayings thread).
In-game Lines/Quotes
Three of Tomyris' lines allude to trust and/or loyalty (and its opposite, betrayal), namely:
These lines suggest Tomyris values loyalty and trust--clearly intended to thematically tie in with her agenda. But the real Tomyris never (in Herodotus' story) saw Cyrus as disloyal, as such, though arguably Cyrus betrayed her trust in use of deceitful tactics. But neither of these tie gameplay to history quite accurately--as mentioned above, Cyrus never "backstabbed" Tomyris (breaking off an alliance with her to attack her for example), and the attack on Tomyris was fully expected and not a "Surprise War" (just not Cyrus' use of wine to defeat Tomyris' soldiers).
A different line alludes to Herodotus' story of Tomyris attacking Cyrus:
Civilization Bonus
"People of the Steppe": Building a light cavalry unit or Saka Horse Archer grants a free second copy of that unit.
The Scythians were known for their horseback riding skills, and the nomadic Massagetae also fought on horseback, though they fought on foot too, per Herodotus, who states "The [Massagetae] fight both on horseback and on foot, neither method is strange to them: they use bows and lances, but their favorite weapon is the battle-axe." The Massagetae also used bows and arrows though, as their fight with Cyrus (where both sides exhausted their arrows) attests. As the British Museum's blog on Scythians states, "the Scythians would use large numbers of highly mobile archers who could shower hundreds of deadly arrows within a few minutes" and "several classical writers state that the Scythians dipped their arrows in poison!".
As both Scythians and Massagetae were horseback riding warriors of the steppes with archers, this bonus makes historical sense regardless of whether Tomyris is to be properly regarded as leading the Massagetae (rather than the Scythians) or not. In gameplay terms this bonus allows you to recreate the Scythian horde with relative ease, making you a formidable cavalry threat early on, as the Scythians themselves were for many years.
Unique Infrastructure
Kurgan (faith and gold bonus unique improvement, extra faith from being next to pastures since Scythians loved horses)
Although the Scythians were hardly known for spreading their sun-worship focused religion worldwide, faith bonuses make sense for this Scythian burial mound improvement given its connection to the afterlife. Gold bonuses are likely an allusion to the wealth of gold Scythian artifacts discovered in kurgans, several of which are now in the Hermitage Museum in Russia. The pasture bonus makes sense given that many gold artifacts inside kurgans related to horses and other wildlife. Indeed, the Scythian symbol in Civ VI derives from the Deer Plaque, a famous gold artifact.
Leader Music (link to all the Scythian themes collated)
Scythia's musical theme is an original composition by Geoff Knorr based on his research of what their musical system may have been. In email correspondence he noted that Scythia had no existing direct reference material, hence the original composition; he also did not want to connect Scythia's culture too concretely with another culture given limited information on them. So the resulting theme is "loosely inspired by surrounding musical traditions", hence the use of the Armenian-associated duduk, a reed instrument. Knorr states the Scythians likely would have encountered and/or used the duduk. Indeed, variants of the duduk are found in many of the regions where the Scythians were, or near, in any event, such as Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia and Turkey. The duduk itself lends a mournful, lonely, otherworldly quality to Scythia's themes, and indeed, it is used for such tracks in many films for those precise qualities.
How does this theme tie to Tomyris? To me personally it recalls the musical theme of Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones in its instrumentation (Daenerys' themes also use the duduk) and tone, and this seems fitting to me given that Daenerys is also the widowed warrior queen of a horse-riding warrior culture in Game of Thrones. The tragic tone of the Scythian music may recall the story of Tomyris (who after all lost her son to Cyrus, even if she ultimately defeated Cyrus), or perhaps the ultimate loss of Scythian culture (having been greatly weakened by the invasion of the later Achaemenid monarch Darius I, for example).
In progress:
Tomyris (Scythian Civilization)
Tomyris, a 6th-century BC warrior queen of the Massagetae, is in Civilization VI portrayed as the queen of the Scythians, and notably appears as a badass warrior queen in Rejected Princesses, where the story of her (supposed) bloody victory against the invading Achaemenid monarch Cyrus the Great (also in Civ VI) was first recounted to much pop culture acclaim. Now, however, with her appearance in Civ VI, she has achieved even more notoriety, and the top results for "Tomyris" on Google and YouTube alike include much Civ VI-related material, as one of the "Stuff You Missed in History Class" podcast hosts (talking with the creator of Rejected Princesses) even notes: "When I was confirming how to pronounce her name, the first thing that came up was, like, the video about the game and how--like, here's our new playable character!" (a few seconds after the 20 minute mark). But Tomyris' story of her victory against Cyrus may not have been fully true, for conflicting stories of Cyrus' death abound (including an account of him dying peacefully, or in a different battle against different people).
Furthermore, she may never have led the "Scythians" as the Massagetae are not, contrary to some conflations ancient (see footnote 262) and modern, actually Scythians, and the then-Greek and Roman historians who chronicled the Scythians weren't the best at telling apart the various Scythian people anyway (including the "Saka", who, while closely related to the Scythians, were a distinct people known for their pointy hats).
There is also the odd incorporation of Scythia's knack for faith-based victories as well as combat-based victories in Tomyris' leader ability--but how historical is that? Was the Scythian worship of the sun, which Tomyris cited when threatening Cyrus, a worthy basis for Scythia's predilection for religious victories in Civ VI? For this entry I will not be analyzing Tomyris' Civilopedia entry in depth, as it more or less is like the Wikipedia article on her, which is more or less like Herodotus' account of her (which is where we derive almost all knowledge on Tomyris from, outside of a few other ancient authors, one of whom, Jordanes, mentions the city of "Tomi" which Tomyris named after herself (scroll down to section 61)).
Appearance
Tomyris' in-game appearance matches almost exactly her image in the infamous leaked leader picture sheet which first heralded her inclusion in Civ VI. Notably, Tomyris in-game has the same pleated/braided hair bands and red, white and blue triangular arm clothing adornment. (The picture itself upon which her in-game portrayal is based reminds me of Osprey military books, but I was unable to locate the exact original source.) The image is apparently that of a female Scythian warrior and as a warrior herself, Tomyris may have looked somewhat like that. We have no actual historical record on what Tomyris looked like at all (even in description) to contradict such an image.
However, Tomyris in-game wears a wondrous gold or bronze helm (possibly based on this one) and a torso-protecting gold or bronze set of armor. She also notably lacks a bow and arrows unlike the female Scythian warrior in the picture, though she carries the sword with its distinctive slender blade and upside-down V shaped guard portrayed in the image, albeit with more decoration in gold and/or bronze. Herodotus' description of Massagetae clothing and military garb ("Their arms are all either of gold or brass...for head-gear, belts, and girdles, of gold") matches that of Tomyris in-game appearance adorned with gold and/or bronze (and such literary descriptions are confirmed by amazing finds of Scythian gold artifacts archaeologists have uncovered, many of them now in the St Petersburg Hermitage museum).
Interestingly, in her original concept art, Tomyris' helm more closely resembled that of the (Osprey?) image of the Scythian female warrior that her in-game portrayal is based on, though slightly more pointed to recall the famous pointy hats of the Saka perhaps. All in all though, a fairly accurate historical depiction of Tomyris, with the caveat that we have no historical records on what she looked like (and with a caveat I describe later below indicating the Massagetae and Scythians were not the same people, in which regard, the (Osprey?) image of the female Scythian warrior may not apply to the Massagetae warrior queen Tomyris).
Overall, a fairly "accurate" appearance, though in some ways its historicity is hard to judge. But Tomyris' bronze/gold armaments are definitely on point, and Firaxis (in a rather rare instance) here was quite faithful to extant images of the leader.
Leader Ability
"Killer of Cyrus": All units receive +5 Strength when attacking wounded units, and heal up to 30 hit points after killing a unit.
The story goes that Cyrus the Great met his death after battling Tomyris' Massagetae. After Cyrus initially proposed marriage to the widowed queen, Tomyris refused (knowing it was her territory, not her, that he was really courting), and Cyrus thereafter moved to fight the Massagetae to take their territory. Tomyris lost her son as a prisoner to Cyrus and asked for her son back. If Cyrus should refuse? Then, as Tomyris proclaimed, "I swear by the sun, the sovereign lord of the Massagetai, bloodthirsty as you are, I will give you your fill of blood." Tomyris' son asked Cyrus to release him from his bonds, and right after Cyrus did so, Tomyris' son committed suicide. Cyrus could therefore not fulfill Tomyris' request. Tomyris, learning of this, "collected all the forces of her kingdom" and, after a lengthy, violent battle, beat Cyrus in combat. Tomyris had Cyrus' corpse brought to her and beheaded it. Then she removed Cyrus' head and dipped in a skin full of wine, saying "thus I make good my threat, and give you your fill of blood".
Interestingly though, Herodotus' story of the head-defiling Tomyris also matches his description of Scythian custom with regards to the skulls of their enemies (see p. 9, paragraph 65). In his account, Scythians use the skulls of their enemies as drinking cups (and rich Scythians would line such skull cups with gold on the inside). While we don't know whether Tomyris drank from Cyrus skull, her use of it as a vessel for blood to fulfill in reality her cold promise to Cyrus certainly recalls the custom Herodotus mentions.
In gameplay terms, the ability reflects Scythian prowess in battle, against Cyrus the Great, who was then arguably one of the mightiest warrior rulers in the world. As Zigzagal points out in his Scythia strategy guide, Tomyris' leader ability gives Scythia "an edge in attrition battles". Per Herodotus' description of the fierce fighting between Cyrus and Tomyris, their battle was one of attrition: "Of all the combats in which the barbarians have engaged among themselves, I reckon this to have been the fiercest...the two armies stood apart and shot their arrows at each other; then, when their quivers were empty, they closed and fought hand-to-hand with lances and daggers; and thus they continued fighting for a length of time, neither choosing to give ground...At length the Massagetai prevailed." The emphasis on the length of the battle and the exhaustion of arrows shows the battle to have been one of exhaustion and attrition of a sort, and certainly a fierce one as well. So the bonus against wounded units reflects the ultimate Massagetae edge over the Persians there. Meanwhile, the healing upon successful kills clearly reflects Tomyris' sense of vindication at having defeated and killed Cyrus.
Tomyris' leader ability is interesting because it also works with and on religious units! Maybe her monks are bloodthirsty in religious combat? As Zigzagzigal points out in his Scythia strategy guide, and as he further discusses in this Reddit thread, Tomyris' leader ability is great for religious victories because religious units are somewhat tougher to heal than military units, and Tomyris' ability works to give Scythia much needed strength in long contests of attrition, whether military or religious in nature. While this is a fun ability gameplay-wise, from a historical perspective the religious angle in particular makes little sense. It is true that Tomyris cited the Scythian sun god when threatening Cyrus ("by the sun, the sovereign lord of the Massagetai"). But Scythia isn't exactly world famous for having lasting religious impact, and the Tomyris story didn't reflect any religious element at all, let alone martyrs dying in religious debate, so the religious angle appears ahistorical (if fun, gameplay wise) and more there to synergize with the kurgan, which in Scythia's in-game incarnation gives faith bonuses.
One must wonder whether Tomyris as a leader for "Scythia" makes sense. The Massagetae were not, according to Herodotus anyway, actually Scythians, but rather "resemble the Scythians" (emphasis mine) and "By many they are regarded as a Scythian race" (emphasis mine), though Herodotus takes pains to point out how all wives being held "in common" though each man has but one wife is a Massagetae custom and not a Scythian one, unlike what other "Hellenes" wrongly believe. Herodotus distinguishing the Massagetae from the Scythians is remarkable when one considers later ancient authors like Diodorus Siculus conflate the two (see footnote 262), just as Firaxis does in its Civilopedia entry on Tomyris, calling Tomyris an ancient Scythian “queen”. But Herodotus did not conflate the two, and it's fairly clear among historians today that ancient Greeks and Romans conflated numerous nomadic horse-riding peoples into a general "Scythian" category anyway. Further, other historians have deemed the Massagetae different from the Scythians. Says Ellis Hovells Minns in his Scythians and Greeks: A Survey of Ancient History and Archaeology on the North Coast of the Euxine, From the Danube to the Caucasus,
Arguably, Tomyris leading the Scythians is therefore somewhat ahistorical, as the Massagetae were not the Scythians per se.
But perhaps the entire story of Tomyris is ahistorical. Though Herodotus considers the story the "most worthy of credit" among the (as he admits) multiple differing accounts of Cyrus' death, plenty of others suggest Cyrus died in a different battle or peacefully at home. Why might Herodotus have told this particular account of Cyrus' death? Because, as suggested by Dan Carlin in his "Hardcore History" podcast (forward to around the 3 hour 10 minute mark), not knowing the full truth of the matter, Herodotus may have picked the most sensational story, and one with a clear moral lesson about Persian overreach (and the follies of ambition). Ancient Greeks would likely have approved. Regardless of whether Tomyris even existed, her story is certainly a most entertaining one, filled with amazing quotes from Tomyris and even a great guest appearance by Croesus ("rich as Croesus") who advised Cyrus in his underhanded combat tactics. The Tomyris story is filled with just enough detail to be (vaguely) credible to the point of being deemed possible (by some historians at least).
Agenda
"Backstab Averse": Likes civilizations who are willing to establish a long-term Alliance. Dislikes civilizations who backstab and declare Surprise Wars.
This (in my opinion) poorly-named agenda (should have been "Honorable Warrior" IMO) clearly alludes to Tomyris' hatred of Cyrus for his underhanded tactics in defeating her son (which led to her son's suicide). Some commenters think this ability fits Tomyris' story (link to a Reddit thread about Tomyris' ability where user "Pluto_and_Charon" states "Scythia's agenda (Hates those who declare surprise wars) and Persia's bonuses to surprise wars work perfectly together!...Good job, Firaxis". Also, as the creator of "Rejected Princesses" discusses in a "Stuff You Missed in History Class" podcast episode around the 20:20 mark, he remarks that Tomyris' story is built into the mechanics of Civ VI (in reference to her "kinda ha[ving] a truce with Cyrus at the beginning and he basically betrayed her and she got bloody revenge on him so if you betray her, if you come up with an alliance with her in the game and then betray her, she will like get REALLY mad at you"). Tomyris' "Backstab Averse" agenda does also make gameplay sense in that it is the reverse of Cyrus' agenda, "Opportunist", which means he likes those who engage in Surprise Wars, but Cyrus' agenda is ahistorical since he rarely, if ever, engaged in "Surprise Wars" in the Civ VI sense.
While I agree the "Backstab Averse" agenda is sort of a nice proxy for Tomyris' story in some ways, it is not very historically aligned when one considers that Cyrus (per the Herodotus account) did not "backstab" Tomyris as such. Rather, Tomyris knew Cyrus was coming to declare war, and told Cyrus to cease bridge-making and either retire in peace or, if he truly desired war, retire to a place three days' march from the river to either initiate an attack on the Massagetae himself or allow the Massagetae to engage the Persians (and the Persians would so indicate this should be the case by retiring an equal distance). Cyrus deceitfully told Tomyris he would engage them himself, then left a camp with only a few soldiers and some wine as a lure for the Massagetae. When the Massagetae came upon this Persian camp, they defeated the Persian soldiers and began to drink Persian wine, which they were not used to, not having had much of it before. Thus they became drunk, and Cyrus then fell upon them, slaughtering many and capturing many prisoners, including Tomyris' son, Spargapises. Tomyris was enraged at this deceitful tactic. But it was no "backstabbing" for sure (there was no alliance between Cyrus and Tomyris, and both knew they would war upon each other), and it was not even a Surprise War as both knew they would war (Cyrus having declared to Tomyris that per her proposal, he would initiate battle upon the Massagetae himself).
This being said, the "Backstab Averse" agenda is a somewhat more forgiveably ahistorical representation when one considers Jordanes, a later Roman historian who states of Tomyris (scroll down to section 61) that "Though she could have stopped the approach of Cyrus at the river Araxes, yet she permitted him to cross, preferring to overcome him in battle rather than to thwart him by advantage of position. And so she did." In short, Tomyris could have attacked Cyrus as he was attempting to cross the river (a "surprise attack" perhaps, even if the attack was to be expected in such a situation as Scythia and Persia were arguably at war before that). But as an honorable warrior, she did not. So this agenda makes historical sense if we interpret cunning attacks as "surprise attacks" but I don't think such an interpretation really makes sense as a historical representation of Tomyris' story--if I attack embarked units as they attempt to enter my territory (after say, Cyrus declares war on me) is that somehow "backstabbing"? Not really.)
As for Tomyris' propensity for long-term alliances, we know she was an honorable warrior from Herodotus' story of her. We do not know if she ever made long-term alliances, however, which seems to be more a proxy for Tomyris being honorable. Though one might argue Tomyris found plenty of ways (in the Herodotus story) to be an honorable warrior without a single alliance.
In-game Spoken Language
Tomyris speaks Ossetian in-game, an eastern Iranian language. It has been theorized Ossetian is the closest linguistic descendant or relative to the Scythian Sarmatian language. Some of the lines in-game are broken, but the actual delivery of the lines appears to be that of a native speaker, according to user Tamu from Lingvoforum.net, who is a native speaker from Vladikavkaz (we know this courtesy of Civfanatics forum user Red Khan, who translated Tamu's Russian translation into English for our language translations of leader sayings thread).
In-game Lines/Quotes
Three of Tomyris' lines allude to trust and/or loyalty (and its opposite, betrayal), namely:
These lines suggest Tomyris values loyalty and trust--clearly intended to thematically tie in with her agenda. But the real Tomyris never (in Herodotus' story) saw Cyrus as disloyal, as such, though arguably Cyrus betrayed her trust in use of deceitful tactics. But neither of these tie gameplay to history quite accurately--as mentioned above, Cyrus never "backstabbed" Tomyris (breaking off an alliance with her to attack her for example), and the attack on Tomyris was fully expected and not a "Surprise War" (just not Cyrus' use of wine to defeat Tomyris' soldiers).
A different line alludes to Herodotus' story of Tomyris attacking Cyrus:
Tomyris never said this to Cyrus, but it alludes to what Tomyris did in Herodotus' story to symbolically quench Cyrus' alleged "thirst for blood". The line should, for greater historicity, have cited the Scythian worship of the sun god (whom Tomyris did swear by when declaring she would have vengeance against Cyrus).
Civilization Bonus
"People of the Steppe": Building a light cavalry unit or Saka Horse Archer grants a free second copy of that unit.
The Scythians were known for their horseback riding skills, and the nomadic Massagetae also fought on horseback, though they fought on foot too, per Herodotus, who states "The [Massagetae] fight both on horseback and on foot, neither method is strange to them: they use bows and lances, but their favorite weapon is the battle-axe." The Massagetae also used bows and arrows though, as their fight with Cyrus (where both sides exhausted their arrows) attests. As the British Museum's blog on Scythians states, "the Scythians would use large numbers of highly mobile archers who could shower hundreds of deadly arrows within a few minutes" and "several classical writers state that the Scythians dipped their arrows in poison!".
As both Scythians and Massagetae were horseback riding warriors of the steppes with archers, this bonus makes historical sense regardless of whether Tomyris is to be properly regarded as leading the Massagetae (rather than the Scythians) or not. In gameplay terms this bonus allows you to recreate the Scythian horde with relative ease, making you a formidable cavalry threat early on, as the Scythians themselves were for many years.
Unique Infrastructure
Kurgan (faith and gold bonus unique improvement, extra faith from being next to pastures since Scythians loved horses)
Although the Scythians were hardly known for spreading their sun-worship focused religion worldwide, faith bonuses make sense for this Scythian burial mound improvement given its connection to the afterlife. Gold bonuses are likely an allusion to the wealth of gold Scythian artifacts discovered in kurgans, several of which are now in the Hermitage Museum in Russia. The pasture bonus makes sense given that many gold artifacts inside kurgans related to horses and other wildlife. Indeed, the Scythian symbol in Civ VI derives from the Deer Plaque, a famous gold artifact.
Leader Music (link to all the Scythian themes collated)
Scythia's musical theme is an original composition by Geoff Knorr based on his research of what their musical system may have been. In email correspondence he noted that Scythia had no existing direct reference material, hence the original composition; he also did not want to connect Scythia's culture too concretely with another culture given limited information on them. So the resulting theme is "loosely inspired by surrounding musical traditions", hence the use of the Armenian-associated duduk, a reed instrument. Knorr states the Scythians likely would have encountered and/or used the duduk. Indeed, variants of the duduk are found in many of the regions where the Scythians were, or near, in any event, such as Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia and Turkey. The duduk itself lends a mournful, lonely, otherworldly quality to Scythia's themes, and indeed, it is used for such tracks in many films for those precise qualities.
How does this theme tie to Tomyris? To me personally it recalls the musical theme of Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones in its instrumentation (Daenerys' themes also use the duduk) and tone, and this seems fitting to me given that Daenerys is also the widowed warrior queen of a horse-riding warrior culture in Game of Thrones. The tragic tone of the Scythian music may recall the story of Tomyris (who after all lost her son to Cyrus, even if she ultimately defeated Cyrus), or perhaps the ultimate loss of Scythian culture (having been greatly weakened by the invasion of the later Achaemenid monarch Darius I, for example).
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Having finished watching Game of Thrones few days ago, I can agree that it sounds somewhat similar to Dothraki music and Daenerys' theme during her stay in Essos.
I'm not very fond of overly jolly (Brejeiro, Banaha) or bombastic themes. I'm fan of darker themes like Japan or Mongolia. The melancholic and somewhat dark tone of the Scythian themes are the main reasons I like them so much. And Scythian themes are also one of those that evolve well, where I can easily tell the difference between Industrial and Atomic versions.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Agreed--and yes, the reminiscence is partly due to then instrumentation--Daenerys' themes use the duduk as well, according to Game of Thrones composer Ramon Djawadi (I updated the Tomyris post accordingly). The musical connection between Daenerys and Tomyris was something I felt almost immediately but I didn't connect it to the instrumentation until Geoff identified the duduk specifically in Tomyris' themes.
I also like the darker themes as I feel they have more nuance than the cheerful (and sometimes almost childish) themes of say Kongo (though I don't mind them generally, I do prefer other themes).
If is interesting that some themes allude to the leader quite well; aside from Gandhi's favorite hymn there is the Epitaph of Seikilos (unintentionally or no, alludes to Pericles' Funeral Speech and perhaps his own unexpected death), and Catherine's wine-centered, war-alluding Quand je bois un vin clairet, which I'm looking forward to discussing too.
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Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
@Morningcalm, I wonder if I can contribute to this thread?
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Sure! Who are you interested in?
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
Sure! Who are you interested in?
Anyone who hasn't been done, really.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
How about Qin Shi Huangdi?
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
How about Qin Shi Huangdi?
Ok, I will attempt to write an entry for Qin Shi Huangdi/China. Do I need to research a ton for this (like reading books), or are online sources fine?
God of Kings
Ruler of all heads of state
@Morningcalm
When discussing Qin Shi Huangdi, mention the Warring States period as well, along with his quest for immortality, his supposed claim to burn books and bury scholars, as well as his Terracotta Army.
When discussing Qin Shi Huangdi, mention the Warring States period as well, along with his quest for immortality, his supposed claim to burn books and bury scholars, as well as his Terracotta Army.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Online sources are fine, though Google Books can help if you need book sources (in my case putting Seondeok and certain search terms together sometimes have Google Books results).
Guandao can handle that I think! And how Qin's leader ability ties in with his story.
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
I'll try mentioning those, even though most of it is unrelated to the game version of China.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Looking forward to it! It shouldn't take me long to finish Tomyris either, but I've been busy vacationing and planning vacationing this month, and it's tricky to edit these posts on the iPhone. I will likely tackle Catherine de Medici next, as I find her life quite fascinating. Pericles after that, most likely.
Necromanced with the blessing of the thread author. My post on Gilgamesh will be a little less detailed than those of @Morningcalm, but hopefully you still find it informative. I will reluctantly follow the dev’s choice to call the civilization “Sumeria” rather than “Sumer”…
Gilgamesh of Sumer(ia)
Gilgamesh (Sumerian Bilgames or Bilgameš) was a historical king of Uruk, once thought legendary (Kramer, 45), who the Sumerian King List cites as the builder of that city’s walls (Bertman, 86). Little is known about the historical king, but he became legendary through the many epics celebrating him (Kramer, 45). The most important of these is the Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh edited by Sîn-lēqi-unninni and found in Ashurbanipal’s Royal Library in Nineveh (Wikipedia), but a number of Sumerian antecedents have since been discovered (Bertman, 149-153).
According to the tales, Gilgamesh was part divine. He ruled Uruk as a tyrant until he encountered a wild man named Enkidu. After Enkidu’s death, he sought the secret of immortality, which he failed to attain, but he found wisdom in its stead. (Summarized from Bertman)
In-game Depiction
In-game Gilgamesh is depicted as a man of Herculean proportions with a long curly beard, a large nose, and a tunic dyed in stripes of lighter and darker turquoise with a saffron border. He also wears a red silk belt, a bulky gold necklace, gold bracers, and a helmet-like crown. It is likely his portrayal was based on this Assyrian statue believed to depict Gilgamesh.
Analysis of Depiction
The cut of Gilgamesh’s tunic more closely resembles a Greek chiton than a Sumerian tunic, much less its later Babylonian or Assyrian counterpart. Furthermore, the turquoise color and saffron border, while evocative of the modern Middle East, is unlikely to be found in Ancient Mesopotamia; Tyrian purple (Bertman, 289), deep indigo, Indian red, ochre, or dull green would have been more appropriate color choices (Houston and Hornblower, 66). Both in cut and ornamentation, Gilgamesh’s clothing is also rather plain compared to its Assyrian models (Bertman, 289-290; Houston and Hornblower, 45), but if tucked under the armpit rather than the waist it would not have been out of place for Sumerian models.
In terms of his coiffure, Gilgamesh is clearly in line with depictions of Babylonian and Akkadian nobility (Bertman, 290) though lacking the beard and hair ornaments (Bertman, 238-239), but Sumerians tended to have shorter beards or none at all (Bertman, 290). See for example Gudea, ensi of Lagash.
As for his accessories, the gaudy gold necklace is appropriate and accurate (Houston and Hornblower, 45; Bertman, 238-239). Bertman relates, “Some necklaces were so heavy they required a counterweight at the back so the necklace would balance comfortably on the shoulders rather than pull on the nape of the neck” (239). Bracelets are attested (Bertman, 239), but I can find no reference to bracers such as Gilgamesh wears—though similar albeit smaller bracers are attested in Egypt such as this one. The crown appears to be depicted loosely on that worn by Gudea, but the match isn’t exact. Babylonian crowns were more conical. Finally, the silk belt is a complete anachronism whether we regard Gilgamesh as Sumerian or Assyrian (Bertman, 289).
Broadly speaking, Gilgamesh’s physical depiction remains broadly accurate to the Assyrian statue that inspired his depiction, but where the statue is fit, the in-game Gilgamesh is hulking. Perhaps this is appropriate for a man “two-thirds divine” (Bertman, 153). This is reinforced by the civilization’s icon being the cuneiform glyph indicating a divinity.
Lines
Gilgamesh speaks Akkadian, though the voice actor fails to distinguish between emphatic and plain consonants, does not follow modern scholarship on Akkadian sibilants, and reads Sumerograms literally. This author personally holds the theory that Akkadian was chosen over Sumerian deliberately as more thematic with the general tenor of the civilization’s design, which is rooted in the Akkadian-language Epic of Gilgamesh from Ashurbanipal’s library.
Abilities Analysis
All of Gilgamesh’s abilities, Sumeria’s abilities, and Gilgamesh’s agenda are designed to synergize to make Gilgamesh the ultimate ally. This is a nod (or perhaps more a prostrate bow) to Gilgamesh’s loyalty to his friend Enkidu, with whom he adventured and whose death motivated Gilgamesh’s quest for immortality (viz. Bertman, 153-157; Wikipedia). Virtually the only elements of the civilization that are not directly related to the Epic are the war cart and ziggurat.
Final Analysis
If the goal was to condense The Epic of Gilgamesh into a civilization and to depict “the hero par excellence of the ancient world” (Kramer, 45), then this depiction of Gilgamesh and Sumeria must be extolled as a success. If the goal was to depict Sumer, however, I cannot come to the same conclusion. As noted above, Gilgamesh is dressed as an Assyrian, speaks Akkadian, and derives virtually all of his abilities from the Assyrian Epic. Few changes would be necessary to simply call him Ashurbanipal.
If in the future Firaxis decides once again to feature Sumer as a civilization in Sid Meier’s Civilization, it is the hope of this author that they will select Gudea, ensi of Lagash, or Kuĝbau, queen of Kish, as leader, and that they will focus on Sumer’s rich history of science, faith, and recordkeeping (Kramer passim) rather than a far later epic poem written in a foreign language by a foreign culture. (And if Firaxis needs inspiration for depicting Kuĝbau, just look at Sumerian Queen Puabi’s finery.)
Works Cited
Bertman, Stephen. Handbook to Life in Ancient Mesopotamia.
Houston, Mary G. and Hornblower, Florence S. Ancient Egyptian Assyrian and Persian Costumes and Decorations.
Kramer, Samuel Noah. The Sumerians: Their History, Culture, and Character.
Wikipedia: Epic of Gilgamesh.
My post on Gilgamesh will be a little less detailed than those of @Morningcalm, but hopefully you still find it informative. I will reluctantly follow the dev’s choice to call the civilization “Sumeria” rather than “Sumer”…Gilgamesh of Sumer(ia)
Gilgamesh (Sumerian Bilgames or Bilgameš) was a historical king of Uruk, once thought legendary (Kramer, 45), who the Sumerian King List cites as the builder of that city’s walls (Bertman, 86). Little is known about the historical king, but he became legendary through the many epics celebrating him (Kramer, 45). The most important of these is the Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh edited by Sîn-lēqi-unninni and found in Ashurbanipal’s Royal Library in Nineveh (Wikipedia), but a number of Sumerian antecedents have since been discovered (Bertman, 149-153).
According to the tales, Gilgamesh was part divine. He ruled Uruk as a tyrant until he encountered a wild man named Enkidu. After Enkidu’s death, he sought the secret of immortality, which he failed to attain, but he found wisdom in its stead. (Summarized from Bertman)
In-game Depiction
In-game Gilgamesh is depicted as a man of Herculean proportions with a long curly beard, a large nose, and a tunic dyed in stripes of lighter and darker turquoise with a saffron border. He also wears a red silk belt, a bulky gold necklace, gold bracers, and a helmet-like crown. It is likely his portrayal was based on this Assyrian statue believed to depict Gilgamesh.
Analysis of Depiction
The cut of Gilgamesh’s tunic more closely resembles a Greek chiton than a Sumerian tunic, much less its later Babylonian or Assyrian counterpart. Furthermore, the turquoise color and saffron border, while evocative of the modern Middle East, is unlikely to be found in Ancient Mesopotamia; Tyrian purple (Bertman, 289), deep indigo, Indian red, ochre, or dull green would have been more appropriate color choices (Houston and Hornblower, 66). Both in cut and ornamentation, Gilgamesh’s clothing is also rather plain compared to its Assyrian models (Bertman, 289-290; Houston and Hornblower, 45), but if tucked under the armpit rather than the waist it would not have been out of place for Sumerian models.
In terms of his coiffure, Gilgamesh is clearly in line with depictions of Babylonian and Akkadian nobility (Bertman, 290) though lacking the beard and hair ornaments (Bertman, 238-239), but Sumerians tended to have shorter beards or none at all (Bertman, 290). See for example Gudea, ensi of Lagash.
As for his accessories, the gaudy gold necklace is appropriate and accurate (Houston and Hornblower, 45; Bertman, 238-239). Bertman relates, “Some necklaces were so heavy they required a counterweight at the back so the necklace would balance comfortably on the shoulders rather than pull on the nape of the neck” (239). Bracelets are attested (Bertman, 239), but I can find no reference to bracers such as Gilgamesh wears—though similar albeit smaller bracers are attested in Egypt such as this one. The crown appears to be depicted loosely on that worn by Gudea, but the match isn’t exact. Babylonian crowns were more conical. Finally, the silk belt is a complete anachronism whether we regard Gilgamesh as Sumerian or Assyrian (Bertman, 289).
Broadly speaking, Gilgamesh’s physical depiction remains broadly accurate to the Assyrian statue that inspired his depiction, but where the statue is fit, the in-game Gilgamesh is hulking. Perhaps this is appropriate for a man “two-thirds divine” (Bertman, 153). This is reinforced by the civilization’s icon being the cuneiform glyph indicating a divinity.
Lines
Gilgamesh speaks Akkadian, though the voice actor fails to distinguish between emphatic and plain consonants, does not follow modern scholarship on Akkadian sibilants, and reads Sumerograms literally. This author personally holds the theory that Akkadian was chosen over Sumerian deliberately as more thematic with the general tenor of the civilization’s design, which is rooted in the Akkadian-language Epic of Gilgamesh from Ashurbanipal’s library.
Abilities Analysis
All of Gilgamesh’s abilities, Sumeria’s abilities, and Gilgamesh’s agenda are designed to synergize to make Gilgamesh the ultimate ally. This is a nod (or perhaps more a prostrate bow) to Gilgamesh’s loyalty to his friend Enkidu, with whom he adventured and whose death motivated Gilgamesh’s quest for immortality (viz. Bertman, 153-157; Wikipedia). Virtually the only elements of the civilization that are not directly related to the Epic are the war cart and ziggurat.
Final Analysis
If the goal was to condense The Epic of Gilgamesh into a civilization and to depict “the hero par excellence of the ancient world” (Kramer, 45), then this depiction of Gilgamesh and Sumeria must be extolled as a success. If the goal was to depict Sumer, however, I cannot come to the same conclusion. As noted above, Gilgamesh is dressed as an Assyrian, speaks Akkadian, and derives virtually all of his abilities from the Assyrian Epic. Few changes would be necessary to simply call him Ashurbanipal.
If in the future Firaxis decides once again to feature Sumer as a civilization in Sid Meier’s Civilization, it is the hope of this author that they will select Gudea, ensi of Lagash, or Kuĝbau, queen of Kish, as leader, and that they will focus on Sumer’s rich history of science, faith, and recordkeeping (Kramer passim) rather than a far later epic poem written in a foreign language by a foreign culture. (And if Firaxis needs inspiration for depicting Kuĝbau, just look at Sumerian Queen Puabi’s finery.)
Works Cited
Bertman, Stephen. Handbook to Life in Ancient Mesopotamia.
Houston, Mary G. and Hornblower, Florence S. Ancient Egyptian Assyrian and Persian Costumes and Decorations.
Kramer, Samuel Noah. The Sumerians: Their History, Culture, and Character.
Wikipedia: Epic of Gilgamesh.
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Sagax
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2013
- Messages
- 1,219
I feel conflicted....on the one hand, I support the general idea of this thread. On the other, I feel like such in-depth analysis with walls of text and digging into scholarly literature might be an overkill. I will keep an eye, though - maybe will drop some bits of information on leaders that I know good enough.
(grabs popcorn in anticipation of Cyrus the Backstabber)
(grabs popcorn in anticipation of Cyrus the Backstabber)
hunteratmaw
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2
No, the theme for the Indonesian civ is Bapang Selisir and Rejang Dewa, both are Balinese gamelan play, which still fits.
Bali is the place where Majapahit people of all class fled to when the capital was conquered by the Demak Sultanate, and with them, they carried remnants of Majapahit culture and fuse it with our local Balinese culture (which is still Hindu based, just like Java at the time)
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Many thanks to @Zaarin for his contribution on Gilgamesh! Incidentally, I agree that Gudea of Lagash would make a great leader of Sumer if the civ is included in Civilization games again sometime (especially since we have a good idea of what the shepherd/priest-king looked like). Ur-Nammu would be another great choice and he has an epic wherein he descends to the underworld, although we know a lot more about his historical person than we do about Gilgamesh's historical personage.
I think re: scholarship, the thread is a discussion of how Civ VI approximates or represents history, so the thread is not intended to be a replacement for scholarship so much as a gamer's look at scholarship and other sources (in my case, I like to use podcasts as well) to examine what Firaxis might have drawn on in representing the leaders. For me at least, I think the historical backdrop of Civilization is one of its biggest draws.
Of course the goal of Civilization is not to educate on history as such, but it can certainly spark some fascinating inquiry into history, which I believe to be one of the best side effects of playing Civ games. I didn't know Catherine de' Medici that well before her appearance in Civilization VI (which initially puzzled me), but it sparked what has become an enjoyable online and offline historical search and a better appreciation of her as a spy/culture leader in Civ VI.
Speaking of, I am currently reading Leonie Frieda's book, Catherine de Medici: Renaissance Queen of France (2004) to examine Catherine de' Medici. I have used what I have read from it so far to point out (elsewhere in these forums) that she was more powerful and accomplished than many have thought. This is particularly relevant since Catherine's inclusion in Civ VI also sparked controversy (as with Seondeok) despite the historical personage being accomplished and powerful.
Recently I read of Catherine having rallied French of both Catholic and Huguenot troops to defeat Elizabeth I's troops at Le Havre. When people say Elizabeth I was more powerful than Catherine de' Medici (without knowing much about Catherine), I point to this historical event to point out they should not be quite so quick in their judgment. Wikipedia has a related entry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hampton_Court_(1562)
Catherine de' Medici's Wikipedia page also mentions this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_de'_Medici#Queen_mother (scroll down to "Reign of Charles IX" and note the last paragraph). Apparently Catherine insisted on being in the field of battle and laughed when warned of the danger, saying "My courage is as great as yours." What a great line that would have been to include in Civ VI!
But I don't mind Catherine's current Italian and French lines. (As something of a history nerd, I was delighted Firaxis had some leaders speak in multiple languages (including Gandhi), because of course in history many did speak multiple languages and use them in different contexts.)
P.S. I know I haven't finished the Scythian analysis re: the kurgan yet; I do plan to finish it, but hope the extant links I put up help lead people to relevant info!
Cyrus wasn't really a "backstabber" in history though he is portrayed that way in Civ VI and gets multiple lines hinting at his duplicity. Cyrus was a conqueror, but the title of "backstabber" (in the Civ context of turning on one's former allies) would belong more to Hammurabi, who backstabbed all his allies and took over their lands to create his Babylonian empire. Most people know him for his legal code and civic improvements, but he was definitely a successful warrior too! I certainly hope that when Hammurabi comes back to Civ (maybe in Civ VII?) he is portrayed as a backstabber.
I think re: scholarship, the thread is a discussion of how Civ VI approximates or represents history, so the thread is not intended to be a replacement for scholarship so much as a gamer's look at scholarship and other sources (in my case, I like to use podcasts as well) to examine what Firaxis might have drawn on in representing the leaders. For me at least, I think the historical backdrop of Civilization is one of its biggest draws.
Of course the goal of Civilization is not to educate on history as such, but it can certainly spark some fascinating inquiry into history, which I believe to be one of the best side effects of playing Civ games. I didn't know Catherine de' Medici that well before her appearance in Civilization VI (which initially puzzled me), but it sparked what has become an enjoyable online and offline historical search and a better appreciation of her as a spy/culture leader in Civ VI.
Speaking of, I am currently reading Leonie Frieda's book, Catherine de Medici: Renaissance Queen of France (2004) to examine Catherine de' Medici. I have used what I have read from it so far to point out (elsewhere in these forums) that she was more powerful and accomplished than many have thought. This is particularly relevant since Catherine's inclusion in Civ VI also sparked controversy (as with Seondeok) despite the historical personage being accomplished and powerful.
Recently I read of Catherine having rallied French of both Catholic and Huguenot troops to defeat Elizabeth I's troops at Le Havre. When people say Elizabeth I was more powerful than Catherine de' Medici (without knowing much about Catherine), I point to this historical event to point out they should not be quite so quick in their judgment. Wikipedia has a related entry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hampton_Court_(1562)
Catherine de' Medici's Wikipedia page also mentions this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_de'_Medici#Queen_mother (scroll down to "Reign of Charles IX" and note the last paragraph). Apparently Catherine insisted on being in the field of battle and laughed when warned of the danger, saying "My courage is as great as yours." What a great line that would have been to include in Civ VI!
But I don't mind Catherine's current Italian and French lines. (As something of a history nerd, I was delighted Firaxis had some leaders speak in multiple languages (including Gandhi), because of course in history many did speak multiple languages and use them in different contexts.)
P.S. I know I haven't finished the Scythian analysis re: the kurgan yet; I do plan to finish it, but hope the extant links I put up help lead people to relevant info!
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Sagax
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2013
- Messages
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Oh, I know that. I'm just waiting for someone to drop a tome and show how wrong his portrayal in Civ 6 is.Many thanks to @Zaarin for his contribution on Gilgamesh! Incidentally, I agree that Gudea of Lagash would make a great leader of Sumer if the civ is included in Civilization games again sometime (especially since we have a good idea of what the shepherd/priest-king looked like). Ur-Nammu would be another great choice and he has an epic wherein he descends to the underworld, although we know a lot more about his historical person than we do about Gilgamesh's historical personage.
Cyrus wasn't really a "backstabber" in history though he is portrayed that way in Civ VI and gets multiple lines hinting at his duplicity. Cyrus was a conqueror, but the title of "backstabber" (in the Civ context of turning on one's former allies) would belong more to Hammurabi, who backstabbed all his allies and took over their lands to create his Babylonian empire. Most people know him for his legal code and civic improvements, but he was definitely a successful warrior too! I certainly hope that when Hammurabi comes back to Civ (maybe in Civ VII?) he is portrayed as a backstabber.
I might try and write up something on Russia, seeing how I defend its Civ 6 iteration whenever it is questioned by "Where's my space-conquering Soviet Union?!" players.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Would definitely be interested in your Russia analysis! I don't think the lavra quite fits the Great Person point bonuses or its assignation to a Russia led only by Peter (who was quite anti religious and thought men were wasted in the church), but would be interested in your take. Of course, I know that in some cases the building bonuses aren't exactly meant to be tied to the leader, but I do think in Russia's case the encouragement to build a lot of lavras as Peter is as weird as Cyrus being encouraged to backstab/initiate surprise wars (both when playing as him, and in the AI code).
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