Discussion in 'Civilization Design Resources' started by TheTacticalApe, Oct 2, 2010.
Well here's a WIP Rome led by Scipio Africanus. And certainly not a simple design, I'd say!
I was joking, I presented a design for all three yesterday literally here :'(
not going to lie I LOVE ROME really looking forward to Scipio Africanus
HAIL SCIPIO AFRICANUS HERO OF ROME VANQUISHER OF CATRHAGE
Oh xD i just wanted to point out that civ's there
Spoiler a response that is way longer than is healthy for anyone, just like this tag, so I'll stop now :
Yeah, nothing to add here. Your arguments are all valid and I have no objections.
I think the latter part of the design is powerful enough to make up for the perhaps underpowered first part, but it's just different opinions, I guess.
Yeah, in hindsight the bonus for losing cities may be historically accurate, but weird from a gameplay standpoint. As for the Star Catalogues, they are buildings that yield Science, and may be built once in cities, but the Chaldean is not consumed upon doing so. I think it adds a nifty little bonus to the Great Scientist. For the UB I disagree... kinda. Maybe making it yield base Science instead would be a good idea.
I knew Merodach-Baladan had to be an oddball from the start (he was one himself), but I think you misunderstood the first part of the UA: it's talking about any city liberated, which makes it significantly better. But I agree about the latter part of the UA, it is quite pointless.
Sure, I can change Nebby. And you definitely have the right idea when you talk about moving bonuses from remote cities to the centre of the empire, because that was, in fact, the intention. Once again, in hindsight, I see that the UB is weaker than it was supposed to be.
Cyclicism and representation are my two most important focuses when designing civs, then comes balance. I am very happy this shines through.
Well... Nabonassar has the essence of the old UA, the Nas Qasti is supposed to be the Bowman, and Amuhhu the Walls of Babylon, so I disagree on this.
Yeah, situational abilities are sometimes unavoidable if you strive for historical accuracy, sadly. And I find accuracy and proper representation to be highly important.
All criticism welcomed warmly, and all praise thanked for (seriously, thank you. ).
I complained about the lack of focus on personalities too quickly, the only one I think is a bit too general now is Trajan. Constantine's is actually very fitting for him and his rule.
I tend to focus more on the leader than the civ, especially in cases where the leaders stand out, like in the case of most emperors. But, yeah, for the Republic you're right, and maybe so for Trajan as well, who wasn't really a very unique person to be honest.
Now for your designs:
I don't really understand the focus on Occupied cities, and it isn't really that helpful, as you want to avoid having too many occupied cities. It sounds a bit weak, to be honest. Also, the Forum negates the helpfulness of the UA, so...
But I do like the concept of Food and Production bonuses from adopting Social Policies, and the Triarii in general.
I find this civ to be very interesting as a concept, but I feel it's a tad too militaristic for Trajan, who according to Wikipedia is:
The Greatest Arse in History Constantine
I don't really think the second part of the UA fits Constantine that well. Aside from that, it's pretty good.
My largest problem is that some of these come across as slightly blobbed civs, especially the Republic (but that was unavoidable). When I say slightly, I mean very slightly. Like how Constantine is focused on Barbarians, and instantly converts Pantheon believers, when that better fits Theodosius (I actually finished my Theodosius design yesterday, and it focuses on Barbarians and religious persecution). But that is a very weak complaint, and I realise I may be the only one who wants a Theodosius civ, anyway. As for Trajan... well, it fits him, because it is very generically Roman, like Trajan himself was.
Now I have to mention the obvious omissions from the split:
But I realise it isn't very user friendly to have more than three civs in one post.
Now I'll just have to redesign the Babylon split and finish my own Rome...
I won't be using this civ, because it replaces vanilla Rome. So I can continue designing a Rome split with good conscience.
I dunno, on one hand, Trajan would work as a cultural Roman state, that much is given from what you said. On the other hand, Trajan was the one responsible for expanding Rome's borders, through two military conflicts, one against the Kingdom of Dacia, with which he conquered, and the second against Parthia, with which he conquered Armenia and Mesopotamia, as well as sacked the Parthian Capital, Ctesiphon. If that doesn't scream the militarism that you say he does not represent, I don't know what will.
I didn't say he shouldn't be militaristic, I just said I think he should have other focuses as well, because he did more than just expand, although that was his greatest accomplishment aside from being regarded by his contemporaries as the best emperor.
I request Transnistria, voted the most obscure country on earth ( as opposed to most obscure country OFF of the earth.)
Needs a Dumnonia faction, Last Romans of britain. Trading/defensiv/with lil bit of religion faction. even have some ideas for eventsdeciison gildas's De Excudio (Ignore = moneycultural increas, accept and change spend money increase faith?) and the British exodus from the homelands (drop population from irst 4/5 cities as long as over certain amount and increase th epopulation of next 45 founded cities for 30 turns or something). Lead by Geraint.
Also Athelstan, Anglo-Saxon king of the Brtain/England. who basically slapped the British Isles into submission. maybe UA re: city states subjugation and conquering shiz
Spoiler for another big ol' reply.
Actually, yeah, you're right there. I was just finding criticism for the sake of criticism.
I personally have no problem with the Star Catalogue in that case, though it'd be tough to get the numbers right to keep it balanced; though yielding base science is a nice way to boost babylon in the early game. The UB though, remember that unless you grab the great library, your science generation is gonna be piss poor until you built that library. So +50% of that is still going to be worse than building a library in all cities. However once you get to the late game with the huge science generation, +50% in every city is pretty nuts and would be an insta win. I think the problem is that the whole game basically hinges on science, any civ which buffs it needs incredibly deliberate and careful values or it can become insanely overpowered. Its no coincedence that both Korea and Babylon, the only science focussed UAs, are considered some of the best civs in the game despite having pretty unexciting UUs and UBs.
Ah, you're right, that is infinitely more useful, but the latter half of the UA and the first UU are still mostly useless, so I think the criticism stands. Most players would quit long before those abilities become useful. I think the inclusion of Merodach-Baladan is a symptom of ESS (Excessive split syndrome) I mean he's kind of interesting but doesn't seem like he'd be considered at all as a viable candidate if he wasn't actually from Babylon. He just led an ultimately failed revolt.
Eyy, I'm glad; its always good when people actually understand what you're trying to do eh?
Ahh right, that makes sense now. It was hard to tell what was what since my Akkadian is famously rusty. (I joke, but I had to read an Akkadian text for my last university interview. I failed. Pretty hard.)
Ah you're totally right here, that was kind of a miswording on my part; by occupied I kind of just meant captured cities that weren't puppets. Originally it was 'for every courthouse and puppet in the empire' but I ended up changing it to the poorly worded 'occupied' when I gave the forum its pacifying effect. Thinking about it now, I'll probably change it to 'captured cities'...
I get that, but I was kind of forced down a bit of a militaristic route because neither the legion nor the Ballista really fit in with Constantine or the republic, since Constantine kind of needed the Comitatenses since he basically formed them, and it'd be odd having a post-marian UU for the republic. So given he needed to have 2 pretty powerful UUs as his only uniques, I thought it made the most sense to go full militarism with him. Besides, Trajan was, as you say, a sort of 'catch all' generic Roman. As such I wanted to reeeaally emphasise conquest as without it, the Romans are just a bunch of Italians pretending to be Greek
Yeah I just stuck the second half in because it needed a conquest bonus and a capital bonus to be consistent with the other Romes. Also the first half of the UA makes conquest really useful, to acquire new cities to convert, so I thought it'd be good to have a little nudge to make conquest easier. I don't like designs which incentivise doing something without providing any bonuses towards actually getting it done, usually.
I have to disagree there, the Comitatenses was specifically, according to Wikipedia, set up by Constantine to combat barbarians wherever they appeared, being more mobile than the old legions. Furthermore, towards the end of his life, Constantine started destroying pagan shrines and being way more militaristic about his faith, so I figured representing that somehow was important.
I always do 3, gotta keep a pattern. Also you run out of icons if you do more than 3, usually. I might return and do more splits after I'm finished, and if I do, Caesar and Augustus will be first on my list; but I have a long way to go until then. (Plus, yknow, the Huns and stuff, which will take, according to my calculations, 9 years and the soul of my first born child to split into 3)
Shouldn't be that hard if you split them in only two. Have something barbarian related for the early Hun civ led by anyone and let the razing for Attila. The early one could have an unique from one of the peoples they conquered and perhaps a mercenary cavalry unit.
I had some >>unfinished<< ideas for this:
Attila UA: (Scourge of God)
Early Huns UA:
The bonuses don't necessarily have to be these, just something along the lines of killing barbarian units grants you something.
I'd also like to have something related to capturing barbarian encampments for the early huns, such as having them produce units for you instead of being destroyed. But like I said these were just some unfinished ideas I haven't put much thought on.
I agree. I would be interested in making a Merodach-Baldan civ, but not as a part of a Babylon split, especially since he wasn't originally Babylonian. As for his success... he did manage to rule Babylon indepentently for 12 years in the face of A-bloody-syria, and again for almost a year, and managed to escape capture. He also outlived at least three kings of Assyria and provided a constant pain in the donkey for them. But, yeah, you can argue that what he did was of little importance in the long run.
Much, much better, then!
I think this comes from your desire of limiting your splits to but three civs. In the case of Rome it is hard to overlook important characters such as Caesar and Augustus. I'd even argue the inclusion of more figures than just those I mentioned.
Greek Split I II
What about Xiongnu, Atilla's and the White Huns?
Xiongu are already out and neither them nor the White Huns were related to the Huns.
Plus, can confirm TarcisioCM has a design for the Hephthalites. I should know, I gave it to him. =]
I was interested in Greek mythos and made a rough idea of a Colchi civilization.
UA: Land of the Golden Fleece
Start with an unique Great work of art that provides +4 and +4 . Sources of sheep provide 1 extra and
I do understand that there was an African civilization made that had a problem with a great work at start and immediate culture victory. So if there isn't a solution to that other ideas for representing the Golden Fleece in the UA?
UU: Milesian Greek
Replaces settler. Can build trading posts and settled cities spawn a caravan unless the limit has been exceeded by two.
UB: Tool Workshop
Replaces workshop, +1 on plantations.
I was having a really hard time coming up with a second unique and I read that they had progressive agricultural techniques so I thought of something based on that.
Ashanti. Actually, when the UA was just that the civ was pathetically underpowered, a Great Work of art at start doesn't affect any civ's culture much, really.
Here's a slightly different version, accompanied by one of my own ideas:
Start Bias: Forest
UA: Heads Of Kartli
Each Courthouse in the Empire adds an additional +2 to all the yields of the Palace. Begin with a unique World Wonder in the Capital that provides +4 Gold, +4 Happiness, and +1 Culture - a yield which increases by +1 each time you advance to a new Era.
UU: Milesian (replaces Worker)
Generates +1 Gold in the Capital and closest Colchian City while constructing a Tile Improvement. This bonus is doubled if improving Luxury Resources. May be expended to hurry Military Production in the Capital.
UU: Sceptuchus (replaces Great General)
Generates +2 Gold, Production, Science, Culture, and Faith when garrisoned in a non-Occupied City. These yields increase by +1 for each Courthouse in the Empire.
Urartu (Semiramis) (Yes she's semifictional I don't care she's awesome)
Start Bias: Coastal
UA: Reach Of Argishti
Gain a +2% Military Production bonus in all Cities for each Major Civilization with whom you are trading a Strategic Resource. Generate +2 Faith for each Major Civilization with whom you have a direct land border.
UU: Mare-Man (replaces Chariot Archer)
Unlike the Chariot Archer it replaces, the Mare-man is a melee unit. Also vastly different to the Chariot Archer, it starts with Formation I, +1 Movement, and the unique promotion "Suri of Haldi", which grants a +5% Combat Bonus for every Shrine and Temple in the Empire, to a maximum of +50%. Upgrades to Knight.
UB: Sisi (replaces Temple)
+2 Faith. Costs no Maintenance, and generates +1 Faith for each Military Unit trained or purchased for :C5faith: Faith in the City in which it is built. Each Sisi lowers the cost of purchasing Military Land Units with Faith by 5%, to a maximum of 50%
They're both designed to be fairly wide Civs, both from similar parts of the world, and both centre around killing stuff with the money you make. Hopefully they interest people! =]
And since we're doing Black Sea Colonies:
Kingdom of Pergamon:
Leader: Attalus I
Unique Ability: Attalid Builders: Production requirements for buildings reduced by 20% in cities you own if you already have a building constructed in the Capital.
Unique Unit: Thureos Spears: Stronger version of the Spearman of which it replaces.
Unique Building: Holosideros Barracks: Replaces the Barracks. In addition to the traditional benefits of the Barracks, a Garrisoned unit in a city with this building provides an additional 25% combat bonus.
Kingdom of Cappadocia:
Leader: Ariarathes V
Unique Ability: Philhellenic Knowledge: Gain +5 Science for every new era you enter in. Science output is increased by 10% if a civilization has researched a Technology you do not have.
Unique Unit: Cappadocian Cavalry: Replaces the Horseman, can be hidden in forests, and can move through forests as if they were normal terrain.
Unique Unit 2: Nisean Breeder: Replaces Great General, when near Mounted and Armored Units, the units are healed +10 at the end of your turn as long as they are close by.
Separate names with a comma.