Civilizations, Leaders and Traits

[Ahriman]

You don't have to read too much between the lines to assume that the inhabitants of Ecaz are the drug barons of the Duniverse.

So, in addition to being our trade faction I think we should be using the rich and varied planet life of Ecaz as part of their theme.

This sounds cool, I'll think about it.

For Corrino, as mentioned before, it would be interesting to give them some ability to incite or stop wars between other factions.

How about they get 2 votes in the Landsraad? And add some Over-council style declare-war-on-X motions.

 

[Slvynn]

Redirecting Discussion started in Sucession Games thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=338098 page 1

So far 3 things:
DW Spi trait not providing any bonus except no-anarchy.
my Suggestion to make discount for missionaries hammer cost for Spi leaders by 15% was liked by Ahriman
Religious Victory terms are too hight. New suggested value by Ahriman is 80%

 

[Deliverator]

I've started updating the opening post, so that there is an overview of the current state of civs. I'll will take a little while to get all the info down.

A couple of small ideas:

Since the Fremen aren't really picking up religions at the moment how about creating a special kind of missionary unit for them: the Sayyadina. Firstly, this unit can have the Sandrider promotion to aid mobility. Second, once Shai-Hulud or Mahdi are founded, the Sayyadina can spread either of them even if the religions have not yet spread to any Fremen city. I don't know if this doable, it's just an idea.

Sculptors' Garden UB for Ecaz - the place where Ecazi sculptors shape fogwood with their minds. I'm thinking of something that replaces the Mushtamal and provides an gold/commerce benefit in addition to the +2 health, since the sculptures are valuable.

 

[Ahriman]

Since the Fremen aren't really picking up religions at the moment

Another possibility; when Fremen research Jihad tech, they get an event with two options; one gives a single Shai-Hulad missionary in their capital, the other gives a single UU mahdi missionary in their capital.
Maybe the event should trigger only if mahdi has already been founded, and/or if the Fremen do not have a state religion.

Sculptors' Garden UB for Ecaz - the place where Ecazi sculptors shape fogwood with their minds. I'm thinking of something that replaces the Mushtamal and provides an gold/commerce benefit in addition to the +2 health, since the sculptures are valuable.

Seems reasonable. A trade route bonus might fit better with their encouraged playstyle (keep open borders, do lots of trade).

 

[idahopotato]

You guys did such a great job on this, that I actually went out and purchased Civ4 solely for this mod. So far, and I am certainly no expert on civ4 yet, it looks and plays great. The only suggestion I would make would be to put Paul under the Fremen rather than the Atreides. While he is certainly an Atreides, he more or less was adopted by and adopted the Fremen way of life. He became emperor as a Fremen, surrounded himself with Fremen in all high places of government, took a Fremen mate, lived and died (twice?) as a Fremen. That would add an extra Fremen and take away an Atreides since they have 4 now. Just a suggestion, although it may be too late if there are no planned patches. Thanks for the great work on this.

 

[Deliverator]

You guys did such a great job on this, that I actually went out and purchased Civ4 solely for this mod.

That is high praise. Thanks a lot!

The only suggestion I would make would be to put Paul under the Fremen rather than the Atreides. While he is certainly an Atreides, he more or less was adopted by and adopted the Fremen way of life.

At one point in the history of the mod we did actually have Paul Muad'Dib as a Fremen leader, back when we had two Fremen civs. It's a tricky one, even after he becomes Muad'Dib Paul still retains the title Duke of the Atreides and uses the title when it suits him. We could have both Paul Atreides and Muad'Dib as separate leaders but then you could have them fighting each other which would be odd. And you could also make a case that Leto II and to a slightly lesser extent Alia should be Fremen leaders too.

With the current setup you can roleplay Paul, and attempt to win an alliance with the Fremen (something we are trying to do in the current succession game). Through some of the mechanics we have, it is possible for the Atreides to build Fedaykin and other Fremen units, by obtaining the Water Debt bonus from them in trade.

Just a suggestion, although it may be too late if there are no planned patches.

Don't worry. There have been regular patches every few weeks for quite a while now and the hectic pace doesn't look like letting up anytime soon. And we're always happy to have suggestions.

 

[idahopotato]

I can see your point here. Although, Paul never took the title of Duke until he was supposed to challenge Stilgar for leadership of the sietch and right before he became emperor. You could make a case for Leto, although he was born into royalty at that time and the Fremen pretty much disappeared under his rule. Alia, well she is just crazy. Even though she was raised Fremen, she caused them to rebel against her during her reign. Like I said about Paul, he lived, ate, breathed, loved, and died Fremen.

I didn't know you had to trade water debt to get Fremen troops. I have been trying to get Fedaykin and worm riders for Paul and haven't been able to despite having the tech, at least for worm riders. So you have to trade water debt to get them?

 

[davidlallen]

I didn't know you had to trade water debt to get Fremen troops. I have been trying to get Fedaykin and worm riders for Paul and haven't been able to despite having the tech, at least for worm riders. So you have to trade water debt to get them?

You can see in the civilopedia entry that Fremen Water Debt is required for these units. The Fremen player starts with that resource, anybody else has to trade for it.

 

[idahopotato]

You can see in the civilopedia entry that Fremen Water Debt is required for these units. The Fremen player starts with that resource, anybody else has to trade for it.

Thanks. I was so excited to play this game that I skipped over it and jumped right in. I ended up getting in good with Stilgar and traded for the water debt to make some worm riders. I also tried to do this with the BG so I could get reverend mothers, but they won't budge.

As far as leaders go, or more specifically civilizations, what are the Ordos? Are they from the new books?

The last question I have, and perhaps this should be in a different thread so I apologize if I ask it in the wrong place, but why do reverend mothers get prescient ability? I figured this should only go to Kwisatz Haderach, and the ability should be such that a unit would know the outcome of the battle before it happened, thus deciding whether to attack or not.

 

[davidlallen]

As far as leaders go, or more specifically civilizations, what are the Ordos? Are they from the new books?

I understand they are from the Dune 2000 RTS game by Westwood.

The last question I have, and perhaps this should be in a different thread so I apologize if I ask it in the wrong place, but why do reverend mothers get prescient ability? I figured this should only go to Kwisatz Haderach, and the ability should be such that a unit would know the outcome of the battle before it happened, thus deciding whether to attack or not.

Any thread is fine! I think the K.H is *better* at precognition, but anybody who uses spice gets some of it. We discussed a little bit how to model this on an older thread. Giving a long visibility range seems like a reasonable approach; you can see your enemies coming and make a counter-plan. If you can think of some more things we can do with precognition, it would be great. I don't think we have made it a strong enough part of the game yet.

 

[idahopotato]

I understand they are from the Dune 2000 RTS game by Westwood.



Any thread is fine! I think the K.H is *better* at precognition, but anybody who uses spice gets some of it. We discussed a little bit how to model this on an older thread. Giving a long visibility range seems like a reasonable approach; you can see your enemies coming and make a counter-plan. If you can think of some more things we can do with precognition, it would be great. I don't think we have made it a strong enough part of the game yet.

Prescience is something that only the Paul and Leto had, or at least complete prescience. Alia had a very little. Reverend Mothers don't have prescience really. The spice helps enhance their abilities, like truth sense, and the guild navigators had a limited prescient brought about by living in the spice, but KH prescience was a combination of the spice and the Atreides genes.

I thought about this this morning and came up with an idea that you could attach the KH (I also figured it would be a single unit rather than a technology) like the general, but able to be removed, and it would tell you exactly what the "roll" would be if that unit attacked another unit or city, thus letting you decide whether you want to do so or not. Perhaps the KH unit could be the Atreides heir or something (I have one but don't really see any benefit to it currently). I hadn't thought of the ability to see further away, but that could be a possibility as well. I am not thinking anything that would be uber powerful, as you could still get surrounded or attacked while in a city and die.

 

[Ahriman]

I understand they are from the Dune 2000 RTS game by Westwood.

Ordos were in the original Dune2 by Westwood, long before Dune2000.

 

[Deliverator]

Ordos were in the original Dune2 by Westwood, long before Dune2000.

The name House Ordos is mentioned in the Dune Encyclopedia, which is not considered canon itself, but is quite entertaining nevertheless. I presume that's where Westwood got them from for 1992 Dune II.

 

[Slvynn]

I know that Corrino have already 3 leaders, but Farad'n makes alot of sense, if not more than his mother.

 

[Deliverator]

Yeah, I'm up for adding Farad'n, particularly since getting a leaderhead image is easy from the Children of Dune miniseries. What traits should he have?

Ahriman would like us to swap in Elrood for Wensicia. My main issue with that is that we are generally trying to stick to the Dune -> Dune Messiah -> Children of Dune timeframe and I prefer to go with Frank Herbert creations rather than prequel stuff where possible. Wensicia does lead House Corrino for a time before Farad'n takes control.

Ahriman has also proposed replacing Erlin Malky with Rhombur Vernius from the prequels. The main obstacle is finding a decent image of aristocratic-looking cyborg that fits with the other photographic leaderheads. I'm not saying the current Malky image is great, but I'd want something that is a fitting improvement.

As pointed out on the Jacurutu forum we should also really change the name of House Ix to the Ixian Confederacy since Ix is not a House.

 

[Ahriman]

I prefer having the Corrinos as really being Imperial, hence why I prefer Elrood over Shaddam. Eldrood is Emperor something like 15 years before the start of Dune, its hardly out of timeline. How long after the End of Dune is Farad'n?

As I recall (long time since I read Children of Dune), by the time of Wencisca and Farad'n, Corrino is basically a shadow, with very little real power.

I also think 3 leaders for a given faction is plenty, and that there is no need for Farad'n. His personality is pretty similar to Irulan anyway. If you really wanted to include him, then just rename Irulan.

I would be tempted to move Alia to Fremen to leave Leto I, Leto II and Paul as Atreides.
Or alternatively, move Paul to Fremen.
Paul and Alia are both militaristic, religious fanatic leaders, but Paul is generally more diplomatic and tolerant, so it might make more sense to keep him as Atreides and move Alia (who is generally more barbaric) to Fremen.
Plus, having "Paul Atreides" as a non-Atreides leader could be weird.

As for Ix... there are multiple source issues. The Ix of Rhombur Vernius et al from the prequels, set shortly before Dune, IS a House. The Ix of 3000 years in the future, under Leto II, is a confederacy. I'd tend towards the less-canon but more contemporary source rather than the canon but distant future source.

Last time I requested this, I did link to some art possibilities, I will try to track those down again and see if anythnig else pops up, but other people will probably know of better art out there than I.

 

[Deliverator]

I think I'd prefer having Paul Muad'Dib back as a Fremen leader as idahopotato suggested to moving Alia there.

OK, I'll see if I can find some good art for Elrood - there are alternate Emperors in Dune 2000 and Emperor:Battle for Dune that might fit the bill.

I did link to some art possibilities

I did look at those, but they had 'Stock Photo' printed over them, and didn't really feel consistent with the others.

 

[idahopotato]

Yeah, I'm up for adding Farad'n, particularly since getting a leaderhead image is easy from the Children of Dune miniseries. What traits should he have?

Ahriman would like us to swap in Elrood for Wensicia. My main issue with that is that we are generally trying to stick to the Dune -> Dune Messiah -> Children of Dune timeframe and I prefer to go with Frank Herbert creations rather than prequel stuff where possible. Wensicia does lead House Corrino for a time before Farad'n takes control.

Ahriman has also proposed replacing Erlin Malky with Rhombur Vernius from the prequels. The main obstacle is finding a decent image of aristocratic-looking cyborg that fits with the other photographic leaderheads. I'm not saying the current Malky image is great, but I'd want something that is a fitting improvement.

As pointed out on the Jacurutu forum we should also really change the name of House Ix to the Ixian Confederacy since Ix is not a House.

I like that there aren't a bunch of characters and stuff from the prequels, as most of the time they either don't make sense, or else just add stuff because it seems cool. I didn't know that the Ordos where from the Dune Encyclopedia. The DE was authorized by Frank Herbert, so that seems cool. Plus the DE is a really fun read.

Farad'n doesn't make much sense as a leader, since he took over pretty much the same time he became royal consort to Ghanima. Wensecia does make sense (although I can't stand Sarandon but that is another story), as she was in control for at least 9 years, but probably ran things much longer than that with Shaddam in semi retirement. Shaddam Ruled for 60 years, so Elrood could not have been a ruler 15 years before Dune starts.

Paul does make the most sense to be Fremen, even more so than Alia. If you don't like having the Attreides name, you could just call him Muad'dib. And even though Paul doesn't appear to be barbaric, under his leadership more people were killed than under any rule in human history. According to the Dune Messiah, even more so than the emperors Genghis Khan and Hitler. There are several entries in the DE on Paul, with one claiming that he was really a Fremen that just took Paul's name since there really wasn't any proof.

 

[Ahriman]

Shaddam Ruled for 60 years, so Elrood could not have been a ruler 15 years before Dune starts.

My timing is off then.

But still; what if Shaddam hadn't had Fenring kill off Elrood?
Elrood could still have been alive for a long time, given Spice geriatric propertties.

I think I'd prefer having Paul Muad'Dib back as a Fremen leader

I have no particular problem with this.
Another alternative: he could be either. Like Decius, in FFH.
This would be superior to having a "Paul Atreides" as Atreides AND a "Paul Muad'Dib" as Fremen, since that way could have them facing off against each other.

 

[idahopotato]

My timing is off then.

But still; what if Shaddam hadn't had Fenring kill off Elrood?
Elrood could still have been alive for a long time, given Spice geriatric propertties.


I have no particular problem with this.
Another alternative: he could be either. Like Decius, in FFH.
This would be superior to having a "Paul Atreides" as Atreides AND a "Paul Muad'Dib" as Fremen, since that way could have them facing off against each other.

Not sure what Decius, but if he could be either that would be cool, with different traits. Like say if the Baron's plan had failed, Paul would have been different. More like Leto and focused on air and desert power, and maybe never became the KH. But as Muad'dib, he would have Fremen tech tree, KH/prescience, and focus more on conquest rather than peace. For a picture you could use one from the old movie and one from the new, like you guys did with the BG.