Clive1 - Monarch (Training ?) game

[MSTK]

Yeah, I guess it will be very costly...

Maybe, when we gain 10+ Swordsmen without even thinking about a war, then we should attack. By that time, Medieval Infantry should be just around the corner.

 

[Sir Clive]

Since you're still in despotism, there's really no need to make them declare on you. Declaringon them is fine, just so long as it is done honorably.

I think the first thing that must be done is to reach a consensus on who you are going to attack. After that, the specific logistics can be hammered out.

:

I realise that declaring honorably wil not affect our rep. However I was thinking about war-weariness. As stated before I am a bit of a coward and I try to avoid war therefore I very rarely wage war before getting out of despotism unless I am attacked.

When I do wage war I try to get the AI to declare on me as I believe this reduces war weariness (in fact I think you get extra hapiness in Monarchy, Communism and maybe some others).

You say 'Since you're still in despotism' SesnOfWthr - I presume this means we don't get any benefit from being the defender rather than the aggressor in despotism ? That is something I wasn't aware of.

 

[Sir Clive]

So war with India, definitely, and Japan as well. But of the three closest I have a greater concern with Russia. They are scientific and expansionist, IIRC, and therefore represent a greater long term threat than either India or Japan.

My conclusion: prepare for war but concentrate now on having more, and more productive, towns than the neighbors. Then when you do go to war it will be short, sharp and decisive.

.

I agree Bede that we need to concentrate on more productivity before we got to war. I hadn't really considered against Russia but now it has been mentioned it looks very attractive . We only have to deal with 2 or 3 size 1 towns and then we should be able to occupy the 2 tile choke point West of Novgorod which will avoid the Russians being able to counter attack our western cities by land. We should also be able to grab the 2 elephants which should be useful.

 

[Bede]

I realise that declaring honorably wil not affect our rep. However I was thinking about war-weariness. As stated before I am a bit of a coward and I try to avoid war therefore I very rarely wage war before getting out of despotism unless I am attacked.

When I do wage war I try to get the AI to declare on me as I believe this reduces war weariness (in fact I think you get extra hapiness in Monarchy, Communism and maybe some others).

IIRC, war weariness is an issue in Republic, Feudalism, and Democracy, but not in Monarchy, Communism and Fascism.

You say 'Since you're still in despotism' SesnOfWthr - I presume this means we don't get any benefit from being the defender rather than the aggressor in despotism ? That is something I wasn't aware of.

In Despotism I think the population is indifferent (no war weariness, no war happiness)

On timing, the window for an early rush has closed, but the next window is half open. In the interim 20 turns or so keep pumping settlers and workers out of Tarsus and Hattusas, swords then chariots from Riverbend, warriors in towns with barracks but no connection to the iron, then swords when they connect.

Once we have learned Monarchy, establish embassies with India, Russia, Japan, and whoever is on the other side of India and Japan, then revolt into Monarchy, during the anarchy move troops into position against the target, and once the government changes, charge!!!! As an option, make alliances with the nation on the other side of the target and any other whom they know.

During the resulting GA build expensive improvements in back-line towns, reinforcements and garrisons for the captured cities in towns closer to the front, overwhelm the enemy, reach your objective, and make peace, or go into a holding action if you have made any allies until the alliances expire.

There is a problem with this plan, however, as the GA will then be spent in warfare.

Not trying to drown any victory parades just trying to make sure all the consequences of any plan are thoroughly considered.

 

[Sir Clive]

Sounds like a good plan Bede !

It seems to me that many people head for Republic rather than Monarchy as their first post-despotic gov. However if we are going to be at war soon it clearly makes sense to be in Monarchy.

Have we decided who our favoured target is yet ? I vote for against Russia at the moment but I guess that might change after the next set of turns.

 

[Bede]

We are only one tech away from Monarchy, I think, and maybe two from Republic. And in C3C there are troop cost implications in Republic which are more severe than Monarchy. When you add the war-weariness of Republic to the troop cost, the added commerce in Republic is offset to some degree. Though as a commercial civ the reduced corruption level may offset the added troop cost if you have enough cities...

One of the things I really like about this game is the "balancing" required, offsetting the weaknesses with strengths. That is why if your early development is strong enough, there are no bad plans. The real error is not planning, or not considering all the implications.

 

[viper275]

As far as who we'll declare war on, we might also want to take their UUs into consideration. India gets a War Elephant, 4/3/2 +1 HP, IIRC. That sounds scary. Japan gets the Samurai, 4/4/2. That's scary, too. And both of those units are coming fairly soon and cost the same as the unit they replace. Now look at Russia's UU. 6/3/3 and 90 shields, according to my Civ3QEditor. The only difference between the 2 is that the Cossack can blitz, which is helpful, but I don't think it's as helpful as the Samurai or War Elephant (and it's not the best time for a GA, for Russia, that is.) Edit: The other thing about attacking Russia now is that, like Japan, it's guarded by lots of mountains and hills, which will give our War Chariots a hard time. India doesn't look as bad.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't attack Russia, it sounds like a good plan. I'm saying that it could make our MA conquests of our nextdoor neighbors harder when they have their UUs (and their GA) and our UUs and GA are long gone. The order I'm thinking of attacking is India, Russia, then Japan. What I'm hoping for is that India will be gone or powerless when it's time for their UU, and we'll be at war with Russia when Japan has the Samurai, and we'll be better prepared for Japan's militaristic trait. Japan will probably still use their Samurai, but they won't be new to Japan anymore.

So, to attack India, MSTK's plan looks good. But before we do any of this, we need get Monarchy.

 

[MSTK]

The thing about Samurai and War Elephants is that they come presumably late after the Hittie UU. Also, we are way far ahead in tech, so we can still build up a sum of Medieval Infantry and Knights before they make their first War Elephant or Samurai.

 

[scoutsout]

@Bede: Don't forget to teach these guys how to research in anarchy...

 

[MSTK]

Actually, once you look at it, Russia and Japan are easier, yet India is a threat to Ugarit (culture-wise). If we just take out Bombay (guarded with Warriors) and Delhi (maybe slightly more), then the risks of culture-flipping are gone.

But...why am I making so much of a deal about culture flipping...?

 

[mtgfreak]

Pre turn check: OK

Turn 1: Hattusas Settler->

IBT: Lahore founded SW of Bombay

Turn 2: Tarsus Worker-> Worker, see fireworks from volcano

Turn 3: moving around

Turn 4: Moving around

Turn 5: Vineyard founded near wines, set to build warrior

IBT: Silks connected

Turn 6: Tarsus Worker->Worker

IBT: Barb horseman kills both workers making a road from Ugarit. i really wish they didnt have 2 movement points, horses hooked up

Turn 7: Hattusas Settler->Settler, Silk forests Spearman-> Barracks, Ugarit switched to worker

Turn 8: Ugarit Worker->Worker, Riverbend Spearman-> Spearman, Ok Corral Spearman -> 3 man chariot, Arabs start temple to artemis, Ghandi has math and will trade for 550g, i dont yet.

Turn 9: Tarsus Worker-> Worker, Aleppo Barracks -> Swordsman

Turn 10: Nothing much


btw: researching in anarchy is easy: 1 scientist for life, yo

 

[Bede]

Hattusas is now a six turn settler farm and Tarsus a 4/3 worker farm

To recap Sesn's table:
Here is how you would set up your factory:

irrigated wheat on plains: 3f, 1s
irrigated wheat on grass: 4f, 0s
Mined BG tile: 2f, 2s
Mined Sugar on plains: 2f, 2s
City center square: 2f,1s

For a total of 13f and 6s. For size 4, you need 8f, leaving a surplus of 5f.

For turn one : work the above, getting 6s
For turn two: Same as above, but the new citizen gets added to the forest, giving a free 2s, for a total of 14.
For turn three: move citizen from forest to mined grass, get 7s for a total of 21
For turn four: Same as above, second new citizen gets added to forest to get 2 free shields, total of 30.

Note: You must have the governor set to "emphasize production for this to work. You no longer have to move the citizen on every turn two with the mined sugar and the game forest.

The gods have given us the two most powerful tools in the game, let's not lose the handles.

Following my little outburst I opened the save and ran some turns to get pictures of the citizen assignments. I also mined the sugar and gave it to Hattusas.

So here are the pictures:
irrigated wheat on plains: 3f, 1s
irrigated wheat on grass: 4f, 0s
Mined BG tile: 2f, 2s
Game forest: 2f, 2s
City center square: 2f,1s

For a total of 13f and 6s. For size 4, you need 8f, leaving a surplus of 5f.
For turn one : work the above, getting 6s

For turn two: Same as above, but the new citizen gets added to the mined plains sugar, giving a free 2s, for a total of 14.

For turn three: no change needed

For turn four: Same as above, second new citizen gets added to 2s tile to get 2 free shields, total of 30.

And so back to turn 1

With the game forest and the mined sugar the settler factory should be self-managing.

I'll edit this post with the updated worker farm in a bit. Still have to grow Tarsus to four, or five.

At pop4 Tarsus is a 3 turn settler factory. It is not self managing

Here's the setup:

On turn 1:
City center: 2f1s
Fish: 2f
Mined grasslands: 4f4s
12fpt4spt

The new citizen is assigned a forest and the worker is produced on turn 3

You need to open the city screen and reassign the citizen to the fish:

Last note: Neither Tarsus nor Hattusas need any more worker labor for the foreseeable future, if not all the way to the Industrial Age.

@SirClive,
First thing you need to do to get Hattusas tuned properly is reassign the closest workers to mine the sugar. Also let Tarsus grow to four using a placeholder. Just make sure when you swap from the placeholder to the worker that you stay at pop4 when the worker is produced.

I enjoyed this little exercise as I now know how to set these farms up.

 

[viper275]

Screenshot:

 

[Sir Clive]

Amended roster -

mtgfreak - Just played
Sir Clive - Up next
Bede - In the wings
Viper275 -
MSTK -
Admiral Kutzov -

Blimey - this settler factory lark looks complicated

I will try my best to make it work.

I'm now about to go to bed as it is 00-30 here and I have to be up for work tomorrow but I should be able to play tomorrow evening UK time. Hopefully try to post some thoughts before I start (work permiting )

 

[MSTK]

Well, I'm very bored.

So, I made up a new plan! Yay!

EDIT: Tactical Analysis
Well, again I'm going with the Swordsmen-3MC combo, because those are the three greatest units we have.
The main barrier is that a mountaon range completely seperates us from them. It's like a giant wall - there are no one-tile-wide gaps. The only way to get through there is by using a diagnol move pass. And, where that is rare, there are also forests blocking it. But we won't have time to put that much roads in unless we divert our precious workers. So, I've worked around it.
To sweep Japan from the north, you have to go through the Northern Pass. Blocking that is a big forest. The chances of a northern sweep is very low if we want to be conservative.
A Southern Sweep seems the only choice, but is impossible, because what seperates us from it is an ocean. The only possible way by 3MC is a "butterfly" sweep that starts from the middle and goes either north or south.
If they go north, then there is still the matter of the south. A Southern Sweep is impossible, even with Swordsmen (unless you have a fleet of galleys, which we can't afford). So, we go south from the center! That way, the Swordsmen couild cover the North with a northern sweep.

So, a fleet of Swordsmen go ahead and knock out Nara and Osaka. They recombine and go for Edo. From there, Satsuma. Then they go to Kyoto (the capital of Japan - probably somewhere at the very center of the empire, under the fog). From there, they meet with our 3MC, who finally finds a location they can attack efficiently. Then, they sweep south, with combined forces and re-inforcements.

However, the southern-most city may be hard to claim. But Japan should be hindered enough, so we cna just finish them off any time now.

 

[Sir Clive]

There's a settler due in 1 turn and we should churn out 2 more during my 10 turns ( assuming I don't screw up the MM in Hattusas ) so I want to make sure I send them in the right direction.

It's too late to make a dotmap , so hope you understand this - I would say the three main sites are

1) Wheat / coast south of riverbend

2) On river by mountains west of Silk Forests primed to strike Osaka

3) Plains by incense NW of OK Corral.

I'm inclined to go 1) first (because it is closest) but I'm then undecided on 2 +3 .

Any thoughts team ?

 

[MSTK]

I think incense is a priority, but the one near Osaka seems to be good. We can go Osaka -> Kyoto and grab the Cattle.

 

[viper275]

I made a dotmap of Sir Clive's cities, but I moved #3 one square southwest to work with the additional three I thought of.

The #4 city connects Vineyard with the rest of our cities and could become a large desert city because of all the oasis squares. Don't know if that's too many, though. #5 is next to Osaka like #3 and grabs gems and an extra source of iron (it's nice to have backup with resources that can exhaust.) #6 gets the cattle resource that India could grab and allows a road between Ugarit and the rest of our empire.

 

[Bede]

The best spot is No 1 just two tiles due west of where the spear is standing.

Then 2 at the center of the oases.

Here is an extension of the map made by scout:


#1 & #2 are high priority. #1 gets the iron, river commerce, and lots of forests and plains as well as an irrigation path to an incense town and site 2. 3, 4, and 5, 6, 7 might be better as 6, 7, 3, 4, 5. We will probably have to waltz with the Japanese to get 5.

 

[Sir Clive]

Have to be a quick post since I am at work

Had a look at the dotmaps posted and can see the attraction of the westernmost site on the river.

I was concerned that going for that one might allow the Japanese to settle in the grassland south of us.

However I will go with the flow and send the first settler out west towards the river / iron.

Hopefully get all the turns done tonight, however if something unexpected happens (for example someone declares war on us) I may stop half way through and ask for advice.