Clive1 - Monarch (Training ?) game

[scoutsout]

Russia will have AC and they are deadly in the open with those 5hps. Hard to kill on either offense or defense.

The AC are really only powerful in the hands of the human player. Key to effective use of AC is economy of force (trying to fight with them without killing too many off). You only get 1 every 5 turns. No more. This is why I was so tentative with them against the barb horse stacks in Bede1....

Don't overlook archers/longbows. The defensive free shot can come in handy. Since you don't have anything that defends better than Knights... I would try putting a few archers/longbows in the mix. Knicking that first hp off the AC could help. Of course... you'll get a defensive shot with the trebs... slowing down the knights seem silly...

...I have an idea....

Try this: Send one or two small mixed stacks of pikes/archers/MDI and a few leftover 3MCs to try to draw the AC out. Try a unit mix of one or two pikes, 2 archers/longbows, 2 3mc's, and one or two MDI. One or two stacks like this... send them early and hold back the main offensive stacks for a turn or two.

My thinking with this little tactic: Just cut the number of AC down to size, and disperse the rest so that they are impotent.

Do not hold your catapults/trebuchets in the rear for city defense. Though they get a defensive free shot, they are not defensive weapons. If you don't believe me, google "siege engines". If you want a defensive free shot to defend a town, use an archer/longbow/guerilla. An enemy offensive that kills a spear will capture a catapult. An archer must be killed by another unit. I saved Nagasaki with this principle in Bede2....

Now is the time to gather the forces (concentration is key) and take on Russia before they get to MT and those blitzing coassacks. India may also become a little more of a threat as they will have Jumbos (fast attack, strong defense and require no resources to build). One army west and one army east with supporting Knights, pikes, MDI and trebs and roll on Russia.

Don't forget: the War Elephants get an extra hit point in C3C...

Knights are 70 shields, MDI 40shields and pikes and trebs 30 shields. We need to find four towns: one each at 12 spt and 8spt and two others at 6spt and we can produce a nice and well defended reinforcement group every five turns. They should arrive at the front just as needed. We should be just about right. If we can ship workers and a settler with each group, even better.

This is where Bede starts to really shine... and you guys need to re-read that quoted passage. Herein lies one of those finer points that separates Monarch players from Emperor players.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Switch a couple of the military building towns to build trebuchets instead of Knights

Strongly disagree. Military towns (those with barracks) should build vets. Build artillery in towns without barracks - trebs bomb, not fight.

(yet another) naive question: prebuild Shakepeare in Riverbend so it can grow above 12? Does the spt above size 12 merit this?

Knights are 70 shields, MDI 40shields and pikes and trebs 30 shields. We need to find four towns: one each at 12 spt and 8spt and two others at 6spt and we can produce a nice and well defended reinforcement group every five turns. They should arrive at the front just as needed. We should be just about right. If we can ship workers and a settler with each group, even better.

Just to make sure I get it - this nets us a Knight, MDI, pike and treb every 5 turns. How 'bout incorporating Scout's suggestion for Longbows? Add a 5th city that produces 8spt and we have a longbow to go along? (Did I do the math right?)

 

[Bede]

Strongly disagree. Military towns (those with barracks) should build vets. Build artillery in towns without barracks - trebs bomb, not fight.

(yet another) naive question: prebuild Shakepeare in Riverbend so it can grow above 12? Does the spt above size 12 merit this?



Just to make sure I get it - this nets us a Knight, MDI, pike and treb every 5 turns. How 'bout incorporating Scout's suggestion for Longbows? Add a 5th city that produces 8spt and we have a longbow to go along? (Did I do the math right?)

On Shake's: with the concentration of towns we have getting past 24fpt may be tough until we get to Steam Power and once that happens we are pretty close to Sanitation and hospitals anyway. If we wished we could set it on a prebuild path towards Bach's Cathedral (very powerful on a panagea map, 600 shields and Riverbend can do a clean 15spt easy so 40 turns) and we can research Music Theory in good time at minimal cost. A switch to Sistine's as a prebuild would work well and then research Music Theory with science set to match the shield accumulation. We don't really need RB to build military as there are lots of towns that can prodce the troops we need with zero waste.

On LB's, good thinking you guys. I don't normally build them but crossing the open ground to the Russian cities with fast attack running around would sure be easier with an arrow to knick the bad guys. ANd they do make powerful city attackers should they be needed. As long as they don't lose their cover of higher defense units, they are a good unit to have along, and we don't lack for towns that can net 8spt. They also have a decent upgrade path that ends at TOWInf.

To answer an earlier query from Clive: If you want to know how many shields are in the bin, do a change production to wealth. The Domestic Advisor will scream at you and tell you the shields that are there. Just make sure you take her advice, though.

On another matter, I looked at the save and asked Cleo what she would offer for Banking. She came back with an offer of 250g and 55gpt. Taking the money mght have been better as that is one way to hamper her research for the next twenty turns.

Also we might want to consider some luxury deals. We have the largest teritory and the nigest population so buying them will be tough but we might want to consder trading our surplus for added cash flow. Another effect of trading luxuries will be to speed up the research pace of the other nations.

Now is also a good time to consider the use of specialists as we have twons and citoes that are long food for their populations and the judicious is of taxmen and scientists can do wonderful things for cash flow.

 

[scoutsout]

Another note on longbows... you guys don't need to build a lot of them. I'd say maybe a half-dozen at the most.

I think they cost the same as MDI... and given an "either-or" choice, I'd rather have more MDI. But given the opportunity to have both, a handful of Longbows in the mix can do you some good. If I'm right on the cost of Longbows, a couple of cities making 8spt could make a couple of longbows and then go back to making MDI.

BIG NOTE: This is for Conquests. In Vanilla Civ you don't get the defensive free shot with archers/longbows.

See those notes from Bede on SPT and build orders...

Back to Bede's notes (and this is a "Training" game).

If a city makes 4 spt, what are you going to build?

What if it's making 5 spt? or 6 spt? Where are the "sweet spots" in shield production?

Go through the math if you will. I see what Brother Bede wants you to see. I want to know if you see it too. Herein lies one key to squeezing the biggest possible benefit from your shield production.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

See those notes from Bede on SPT and build orders...

Back to Bede's notes (and this is a "Training" game).

If a city makes 4 spt, what are you going to build?

What if it's making 5 spt? or 6 spt? Where are the "sweet spots" in shield production?

With 3spt, we can also build trebs/pikes with minimal waste in 10 turns. Given prior discussion, we want infrastructure away from the front. Food towns will have minimal spt, so they build granaries at 3spt, then courthouse after granary (by then are hopefully at 4spt), then aqueduct/market as spt go to 5. If my reasoning is correct, production towns should have at least 4spt to build useful improvements. Build rax if military growth needed, courthouse if not. When it gets to 5spt, after completing 1st build, start on market/aqueduct.

@sensei(s) - am I on the right track?

 

[scoutsout]

@Admiral Kutzov: I was thinking in terms of the unit builds, not the infrastructure...so you made the question harder than intended. Your 3spt Pike example was on-point.

When it comes to improvement builds it is not really possible to completely avoid shield waste. You can't build a market for Hattusas in another town...

Focusing on unit builds, consider this:

A town making 3spt can make Pikemen/Trebs without wasting any shields.
A 4spt town could make MDI or the occasional Longbow.
One of your sweet spots is 5 spt. These can make anything with no waste. Know where your 5spt towns are!
At 6spt you're back to pikes/trebs.
At 7spt you should make Knights
At 8spt you're back to MDI/longbows
At 9spt some wast is unavoidable. Making a pike will waste 6 shields, making a MDI/Longbow will waste 5, making a Knight will waste 2.
If you guys have more than one town making 10spt at this stage of the game I would be surprised. Ten (and multiples of 10) are the uber-sweet-spots in production.

Note that NONE of this takes your NEEDS into account. If you NEED more Knights, then to heck with the shield waste...

Another bit of advice: Build more pikes than you think you will need.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

When it comes to improvement builds it is not really possible to completely avoid shield waste. You can't build a market for Hattusas in another town...

My thoughts were strategic: i.e. foodtowns build things to get the pop up, productive towns build the good stuff. Like I said, I'm slow.

Note that NONE of this takes your NEEDS into account. If you NEED more Knights, then to heck with the shield waste

i think i mentioned i was intuitive way back in one my first posts: i.e. always built (and lots o' times overbuilt military) for need. That's why I wanted to play this game

@ scout - awhile back, you mentioned putting the plodders (MDI, pikes etc) in the center of our empire and going two pronged on Cathy. Bede's got the follow on forces planned out (I still like adding LBs to the new stacks) How 'bout a bltiz with the knights to St. Pete? knocks off future fast movers for Cathy, knights have decent defence (nod to proper English as opposed to hillbilly American English) and should be able to withstand counters from AC. I was thinking hammer and anvil - our knights go for St. Pete and Moscow and roll Cathy up agianst our plodders in the interior. Thoughts? Also, I like the sacrificial lamb plan to draw out the AC. Thinking we need 10-20 turns of prep before war with Russia.

 

[scoutsout]

@Admiral Kutzov: quit calling yourself slow... you and your teammates are doing just fine.

@ scout - awhile back, you mentioned putting the plodders (MDI, pikes etc) in the center of our empire and going two pronged on Cathy. Bede's got the follow on forces planned out (I still like adding LBs to the new stacks) How 'bout a bltiz with the knights to St. Pete? knocks off future fast movers for Cathy, knights have decent defence (nod to proper English as opposed to hillbilly American English) and should be able to withstand counters from AC. I was thinking hammer and anvil - our knights go for St. Pete and Moscow and roll Cathy up agianst our plodders in the interior. Thoughts? Also, I like the sacrificial lamb plan to draw out the AC. Thinking we need 10-20 turns of prep before war with Russia.

I think you're onto something here... in looking at the screencaps, St. Petersburg is Cathy's source of Ivory. Take that, and you take away the Ancient Cavalry. Take it now, and you GET some AC (once you capture the Statue of Zeus....)

Bear in mind, I'm going with incomplete screencaps for information... but I'm looking at 3 different sets of terrain considerations here:

1) In the east, you have 2 Russian Cities that lie awfully far to the east. I believe they are Bryansk and Orenburg. These 2 cities have "internal lines of communication". Our battle lines encircle theirs...which affords the Russians greater freedom of movement; greater flexibility. (Classic "Lee at Chancellorsville" stuff)

1a) Correct me if I'm wrong, but these 2 easternmost cities appear connected to Mother Russia at Lahore.

2) A good place for the diversionary attack would be north out of Osgiliath. The idea here is to draw out the AC, and draw forces from those eastern towns.

3) The terrain on the approach to St. Petersburg stinks for a Knight blitz.

...considering all this stuff (and hoping I'm consistent with Bede), I offer the following:

Preparations:
Put one knight and/or 3MC in reserve in each town around the 2 Eastern Russian "Bulge" towns.

Phase one:
A single diversionary stack of Pikes and Longbows, north out of the center. (Osgiliath?) See what kind of counterattacking you get in 2 turns, and evaluate.

Phase two:
A multi-pronged attack. Combined arms of MDI/Pikes/Cats or Trebs...maybe a longbow or two if you can spare them... launch this north from Nagasaki towards St. Petersburg...

...meanwhile...

Move the Knight Army and a stack of Knights in a one-dimensional blitz on Lahore. Capture Lahore, and you just cut the Russian empire in two.

Phase three:

Hopefully by now you have taken Lahore, and are laying seige to St. Petersburg. Use all available knights to take the eastern Russian cities.

Follow-on...

Move any follow-on footsoldiers to Osgiliath. Once rallied, press north and west... Once the east is secured, the footsoldiers advance from the center while the Knights sweep from the east... moving westward across Russia.

Keep producing footsoldiers to consolidate holdings... so that the knights can be kept free for the next campaign....

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Don't panic if you see smoke - i'm thinking. I'm off to review the save and the comments. Back later.

 

[Bede]

If you guys have more than one town making 10spt at this stage of the game I would be surprised. Ten (and multiples of 10) are the uber-sweet-spots in production.

Deep throated chuckle from the darkness, With a little terrain trimming and some holy water I think we will have at least four.

Like the campaign plan. To summarize, take St Pete, then split them down the middle at Lahore and mop up the east. Build force for the west. Make maximum use of knights on plains and forests. Keep knights and chariots out of the jungles and marshes.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Deep throated chuckle from the darkness, With a little terrain trimming and some holy water I think we will have at least four

Returning from save review - we have 6 cities doing 10 spt: RB, Oasis, Aleppo, Karhuyuk, Greenland, Vineyard.

Fire the clown at Greenland!

Firefighters converge on Chocolatetown due to all the smoke(from my thinking) Took a sorta detailed look at the save and here are the plans for Operation Barbarrosa
4 new Army groups (this will take MM of cities to shift production around0

Stonewall Jackson Corps:
Oasisland (knight in 2)
Pompeii (mdi in 3)
OK Corrall (LB in 2)
Kummani (treb in 2)

Pete Longstreet's Corps:
Vineyard (Knight in 2)
Kanesh (MDI in 3)
Yalburt (LB in 3)
wake treb @ plains city

20th Maine:
Iron river (3MDi in 4)
Osgiliath (LB in 4)
Emar treb after CH
Hattusha treb after Ch
Kachyuk (knight after univ.)

Trebs at Edo move to Osgiliath. Crusaders from KT go to Osgiliath.. All unassigned knights go to 2 SE of northernmost Ivory near St. Pete. Stomp St. Pete, don't p*** on it

Diversonary force goes after Yekaterinaburg instead of Lahore.. Lambs consist of 3mc from Keyhole. Elite MDI at kultepe. 3mc at Kyoto.3mc at Satsuma, 3mc at Emar.

Somebody find the pikes to defend the above forces!

Thoughts y'all?

@ scout - please forgive the dissention over yekaterinaburg & lahore

 

[Sir Clive]

Hi All

Sorry I didn't get anything done today - I didn't get back until 00-30. It's now 01-00 and a nice comfortable bed beckons

I have had a brief read of the discussions re spt needed for certain builds without waste i.e matching the build to the spt in a particular town. I am very glad this topic has come up since it is something I do normally try to do but I am normally a little bit lazy about it Now is a good time to buckle down and do it properly.

I normally try to get my towns to 5/10/15/20 shields but I often miss out on building the right stuff in the 6/7/8 spt towns.

I have a day off work tomorrow, but am busy during the day - I guess I will probably start playing at about 20-00 London time and hopefully have the save / screenie / turn log posted by 00-00 London.

BTW I am initially intending to build up military and infrastructure over the next 5 turns and not go to war - however I havent't looked at the other posts in detail yet (and it's 01-00 and I'm knackered) and my view might change depending on how close the Russians are to building serious units in quantities that might trouble us.

 

[Sir Clive]

Strongly disagree. Military towns (those with barracks) should build vets. Build artillery in towns without barracks - trebs bomb, not fight.

Sorry about that major **** up . I keep thinking trebs / cats / arty have conscript / regular / veteran / elite status because they are military units and in my (exceedingly small) brain I group then in with warriors / spers / swords / rifles and the like

My bad

Never thought about building them in towns without barracks - obviously the sensible thing to do .

Must go and brush up on the Civilopedia and separate these 2 categories of military in my mind.

 

[Sir Clive]

Must go and brush up on the Civilopedia and separate these 2 categories of military in my mind.

Can't find anything which tells me which units do not have variable status (ie conscript / regular / veteran / elite) ?


Presumably it is those which just have bombardment capability ie trebs / catapults / artillery or are there more ?

 

[SesnOfWthr]

You're right that only bombard units (and scouts, and workers, and settlers) have no hp, and therefore no rank.

An argument could also be made that air units will rarely, if ever, have their rank come into play, so in that case regulars are OK too.

 

[Sir Clive]

Here's the save after my first 4 turns in case anyone wants to have a look
(..... got .... to ... go ..... to .... bed .... it's now 01-40 but I'm still watching the Oakland Yankees game and there are still at least 4 inning to go )

Clive Save Game 890 AD

 

[Sir Clive]

You're right that only bombard units (and scouts, and workers, and settlers) have no hp, and therefore no rank.

An argument could also be made that air units will rarely, if ever, have their rank come into play, so in that case regulars are OK too.

Thanks SesnOfWthr - can't believe I have never thought about this point before. But I guess that's precisely why playing SGs is so useful !

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

In fact, bombard units do have a rank (Hwacha's can promote to Elite!), but it has absolutely no consequences....

 

[scoutsout]

@ scout - please forgive the dissention over yekaterinaburg & lahore

No problemo... I'm officially in the Peanut Gallery on this one... Based on the consulting fees you guys are paying me, you can take my advice for what it's worth. Seriously, as long as you guys are thinking, you'll do fine. I'm just trying to give you a little food for thought.

Now here's some more: Longstreet is an under-rated commander. Glad you hired him. Fire Jackson, and get yourself a Cavalry man. Forrest was a hard charger, but I'm fond of Mosby. (Stuart was HIGHLY overrated, IMO)

20th Maine... not bad for the diversionary force. If it ends upb growing to another Combined Arms Task Force (CATF) I'd dub it the "Iron Brigade"... (The historical one was the 2nd, 6th, & 7th Wisconsin, 19th Indiana, 24th Michigan Volunteers, and Battery B of the 4th U.S. Artillery...made a stand at Seminary Ridge, IIRC)

 

[Bede]

20th Maine-wasn't that the regiment led by that relunctant soldier and classical scholar Joshua Chamberlain, Col at Gettysburg, later Brigadier Gen under Grant, ultimately president of Bowdoin?

Stuart had dash but no class and less staying power.