Closing Out the Midgame

[Wingednosering]

Hi all!

I've been playing a lot of Diety lately and I win often, but tend to have pretty bad win turns (often around 300).

I've been reading threads on this sub forum to try and improve my builder game (conquest is too easy) and I noticed that I hit a lot of the early game benchmarks. I have Campus/Theatres up around T50 and I can get Knights as early as T80. I have 6-10 (depending on map and VC) cities up by T100.

However, I still can't close out my games before 300! I don't know how people get CVs and SVs before T200. Any advice on the midgame would be great.

Story of my latest failure:

In terms of CVs, my last attempt was especially galling. I had theatres by 50 and 8 cities by T100. I played as Kongo and had pretty much every GWAM. The other civs had a combined 4 great works near the end of the game and 2 of them were relics. I still lost and couldn't overcome their culture outputs. I was three turns from victory when an AI got their SV.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Spies. Sabotage missions.

 

[Midgardsormr]

Were you using all of the tourism boosts you could? Trade routes, matching governments, all the policy cards? I don't find I can rely entirely on Great Works for tourism--national parks and seaside resorts are very powerful. Building the Eiffel Tower supercharges both of them. Remember that you can remove improvements and swap tiles around to make way for a park. Planting forests in and around a park raises its appeal more, thus raising its tourism output. You can do the same to create more resorts.

You may also be halting your expansion too early. How many cities did you end that game with?

 

[Fluphen Azine]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/culture-victory-strategy.638049/

The above thread/link doesn't have all the information but it does have a good bit.
You may have already read it.
You may want to sift through it some more for nuggets that you missed.
Depending on what map you play you may have to Warmonger at the start.
Many times on a Pangaea Map I don't have enough room to expand peacefully.
Although everyone seems to agree peaceful play is faster...
Violent CV is an easier pathway.
I am convinced that not all maps can take a peaceful approach.
However I did see a video of a quick SV of around 157 turns with only 8 cities.
They had some good CS help though and it was before some recent patches.

According to Victoria and others, playing Persia can achieve a very fast Peaceful CV (100 - 150 turns).
I have yet to make it work but it requires precise or optimal play.
It also seems to revolve around optimal chopping so every map will play differently.
Forget a few things and you will push your turn time up more and more.

Perhaps try easier maps with chops and hills for easier production.
Personally I like to play whatever map I roll on Standard.
I have realized that the land makes a big difference.
However, SKILL is a huge factor as well.
Just look at what Dan Quayle did with a map I randomly rolled.
Finished on turn 151 with a CV.
Victoria posted up 100 turns of getting the snowball rolling.
My game however wasn't even close to what they achieved.
Obviously skill is a factor when trying to emulate these pros which isn't as easy as one might think.

Many times I am in a game getting close to turn 100 looking at my stats thinking; what am I doing wrong?
Those Pros on Civfanatics would be close to finishing the game already

Sure, I might be able to match someone in SPT by turn 100 on the same game but how do they get their CPT, FPT, GPT and Tourism so high? Somehow they Synergize everything together and get high rates for each one. I was watching a video by TheGameMechanic once and he was all happy about getting 1000 everything per turn by around turn 205 or so. I was thinking that is nothing... these real pros have massive whatever they want per turn on every game they play! Not only that but they field a Large Army that is buzzing through the AI. Mind you this guy plays on a Smaller Map and Wet settings. The amount of hills and chops he has on every game is ridiculous and skews the game when compared to standard maps. So you have to take that into account.

(The latest GOTM game got me reeling the worst though. I compare my stats to Dan Quayle and Barbarian Hunter and you can just see how large the gap grows every 10 turns.)
Frustrating and Depressing but its the Holidays and we're all in misery! - Ellen Griswold -

 

[Wingednosering]

I play Fractal - Small typically (otherwise all default settings). I had very few tiles with high enough appeal to do seaside resorts, but put them everywhere I could.

I constructed quite a few wonders but unfortunately I was beaten to the Eiffel Tower.

I've never bothered with National Parks. Are they actually good?

There were 4 AIs remaining at the end (the 5th got eliminated before I met them). I had open borders with all of them, was a declared friend of all four and shared a government with three of them.

I usually stop expanding around turn 100. I never go over 10 cities.

 

[Morino1914]

I’ve only once tried a peaceful cv with less than ten cities. Persia. Eiffel Tower, seaside spam was the key. Beelined Eiffel and computers. Still went over 200 turns iirc. I think focusing early science is more important than culture, but still went with TD in most cities. With enough gold and builders I’ll usually settle city, buy monument, chop food, place district, start building walls, chop wall-overflow to district. Build a mine or two and quickly place second district and prepare for another chop.
It’s nice to have National parks, but then you’ll probably need either Harvest-or goddess-pantheon or conquer quite a few holy sites.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I’ve only once tried a peaceful cv with less than ten cities. Persia. Eiffel Tower, seaside spam was the key. Beelined Eiffel and computers. Still went over 200 turns iirc. I think focusing early science is more important than culture, but still went with TD in most cities. With enough gold and builders I’ll usually settle city, buy monument, chop food, place district, start building walls, chop wall-overflow to district. Build a mine or two and quickly place second district and prepare for another chop.
It’s nice to have National parks, but then you’ll probably need either Harvest-or goddess-pantheon or conquer quite a few holy sites.

Well something is wrong.
I don't play so well and it takes me 175 to 250 turns for my games depending on VC.
However, I see better players posting...
CV's around turn 100 - 150...
SVs from turn 140 - 160...
DVs from turn 90 - 115...
I don't see too many people post up RVs but I am sure they do it fast.

These players or games seem to be using Optimal Strategy and Overflow.
If you play by "certain rules" your game will go longer and longer.
The point is that if a player really knows how to play this game they seem to easily win by turn 100 - 150, especially for CV.

I find that I play too fast and too unfocused to replicate such skill.
IMO you have to make the right moves and builds.
It doesn't hurt to have certain CS meets or using a certain Civ which will change the outcome.

Let's just look at a Twitch Streamer/Youtuber (TheGameMechanic).
This player posts a ton of Deity games now over a year.
He plays basically cooked Pangaea Maps that are Smaller than Standard.
Not exactly cooked but his conditions like Wet create a ton of hills and chops.
I watch this player play somewhat slow and precise.
He tends to focus a bit too much on population IMO growing too tall.
He tends not to have enough cities IMO.
His games almost always go past 200 turns with those easier maps or at least seem easy to me.
One could argue that he doesn't abuse the AI or Chops but I see his stats at turn 125 many games are in the cellar.
Not to mention the times he gets rolled at a rate of about 12% to 15%.
Not to mention when he tries to stream Sub 200 Turn games he re-rolls out of his mind, trying to get the perfect Map/Start.
I forgot my point...whatever lol!

 

[Morino1914]

Let's just look at a Twitch Streamer/Youtuber (TheGameMechanic).
This player posts a ton of Deity games now over a year.
He plays basically cooked Pangaea Maps that are Smaller than Standard.
Not exactly cooked but his conditions like Wet create a ton of hills and chops.
I watch this player play somewhat slow and precise.
He tends to focus a bit too much on population IMO growing too tall.
He tends not to have enough cities IMO.
His games almost always go past 200 turns with those easier maps or at least seem easy to me.
One could argue that he doesn't abuse the AI or Chops but I see his stats at turn 125 many games are in the cellar.
Not to mention the times he gets rolled at a rate of about 12% to 15%.
Not to mention when he tries to stream Sub 200 Turn games he re-rolls out of his mind, trying to get the perfect Map/Start.
I forgot my point...whatever lol!

I’ve seen some of his games, seldom more than 3-4 episodes of any series. He obviously knows how to play but opt not to abuse exploits/cheats. He chops to early imo and without any really good benefits. Ex: build chariot->chop 1 turn left->build district/wonder/gov plaza. Then you’ll have 6 chariots and a lot more production into infrastructure.
Already at city 3-4 I usually don’t chop until walls bring districts at one turn. But everything in my first 10 cities are usually chopped once feudalism is around. Then I’ll chop out builders (liang+pyramids pls!) and spread around for second round in captured cities. And save a couple of cities with trees for those wonders you’ll want. And have another wave of builders ready long before you’ll discover resorts and conservation for tree planting.
10-15 cities is not enough for me to hit sub t170 CV btw.
If you throw in selling great works-cheat and exploitive cs-tactics I can easily see sub t150. But army is a must...

 

[Victoria]

Many times I am in a game getting close to turn 100 looking at my stats thinking; what am I doing wrong?

This is a very common feeling, when you get to T120 and think that you are right, T100 my be a bit early.

The latest GOTM game got me reeling the worst though

Having seen quite a few of your posts I think you are missing the early gold side. I do not bargain for every penny and I only go for GPT as the other way feels wrong to me but I sell everything including open borders. The moment I get to early empire everyone not at war with me will pay 1GPT for open borders, one of the reasons I like an early scout. Saving gold = losing the game... buying an early settler is quite effective.

I've never bothered with National Parks. Are they actually good?

yes, yes and yes. The can be improved like seaside resorts as well... you just need faith.

I constructed quite a few wonders but unfortunately I was beaten to the Eiffel Tower.

only some are worth getting.... Pyramids, oracle, coliseum for sure although Oracle is a risk. For CV the only others are great library ( for writer slots) and Cristo/Eiffel ... building others can seriously hamper you

I never go over 10 cities

I do not blame you but you really have to purify your push if you limit yourself.


Note; not all games are as easy as you have seen, GOTM is set up for a good game if you had not noticed. Very early CV’s rely on crash amounts of slinger chopping which is silly. Sub 200 is quite acceptable, sub 150 exceptional. You have to be fast and lucky.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Having seen quite a few of your posts I think you are missing the early gold side. I do not bargain for every penny and I only go for GPT as the other way feels wrong to me but I sell everything including open borders. The moment I get to early empire everyone not at war with me will pay 1GPT for open borders, one of the reasons I like an early scout. Saving gold = losing the game... buying an early settler is quite effective.

Thanks... I do have a problem with Early Gold and Early Culture depending on what Civ I am playing.
I struggle with being able to maintain high stats across the board.
One game I might be rolling with Gold or Culture or Science.
I rarely have a game where I am at 150 SPT, 100 Culture, 150 GPT, 100 FPT and 50 Tourism by turn 100 or so.
This is one thing I notice when someone is finishing fast or playing Optimal.
They seem to have very high Stats across the board instead of just one or two categories.

I refuse to trade any type of Artwork because it is just a rule I adopted.
I don't mind trading lump gold.
It depends on my style of game play.
I notice if you play Friendly with "certain" Civs you can get silly deals like 400 Lump and 30 GPT.
I usually Trade all Borders but sometimes I am late or forget everyone. (Time Consuming)
My game definitely has a bunch of "holes" in it.
Perhaps I will try a game where I use every abuse in the book and see how much that shaves off my turn time.
I notice some players don't use every trick and still can obtain insane stats with fast finishes... they just understand all the math behind the game.

 

[Wingednosering]

How many cities should you have for a CV? I thought 10 was fine for a quick CV.

 

[Victoria]

How many cities should you have for a CV? I thought 10 was fine for a quick CV.

It certainly is, I’m just saying sometimes it can be a limitation.... for example you stick to 10 and you discover Pericles last and he already has high culture.