Coastal Starts

[Nick723]

Hi All,

Collecting a list of strategies for coastal starts. These can be unintuitive to play, at least for me, and also without playing through multiple options can be tough to judge what is better.

Plan is to tackle a start at a time, discuss options and predict which will be best. Then someone will play through each option and we can conclude. This way, in time hopefully some general ‘rules’ can be developed.

For the first start I propose this one (stolen from @Henrik75 recent Zara game)

Spoiler :

Here I think it is a given to SiP, although if others would disagree then keen to hear why. Obviously other settling positions might expand the options somewhat!

I see 3 general options:

Spoiler Option 1: Fishing First :

As exhibited by Henrik on video.
Tech path: Fishing, Bronze Working, Wheel (Henrik went Archery)
Grow to size 2 and then build a work boat, then worker to chop more boats.

Spoiler Option 2: Animal Husbandry First :

Tech path: Animal Husbandry, Fishing, Bronzeworking
Worker first, improve cow and furs, then chop

Spoiler Option 3: Bronze Working First :

Tech path: bronze working, fishing, wheel (Or animal husbandry)
Worker chops out a second worker. Then both workers chop boats.

Which option would you pick? Is there another better one I haven’t thought of?

I have played all three options through, and will reveal which I consider to be best after.

 

[sampsa]

I like SIP, since reaching the PH (where scout is) takes 2T and will be an issue post-chops.

With a nice amount of chops option 3 is tempting and in general mining-starters have an easier time with such starts as BW is 1 tech away. Option 1 feels slowest and is probably the weakest one.

 

[5tephen]

I like the concept - coastal starts are frustrating.

I assume we’re basing choices on deity tech costs?

I’d move scout 1W2S but unless that revealed a decent inland location, agree with SIP.

Option 3 seems best to me. Fishing first feels like a delay to more important techs. AH first I'd be worried about running out of things to do with the worker before next worker tech. BW gives us lots of choice.

Based on option 3, I struggle with what’s optimal after chopping first boat. Clearly will need a warrior for fogbusting/barb defence. After that is it best to go second worker to chop everything, 2 more workboats or just get chopping a settler? I have tended to go for boats on all of my coastal resources ASAP but I suspect getting a settler out and the second (hopefully better) city online is better?

 

[civac]

If that were a start in a Pitboss I would break out the trusted spreadsheet and calculate the option up to turn 30 or so.

In SP I can't be bothered. I am interested in reading your conclusions though.

Edit: Also, as 5tephen says the choice depends on tech costs.

 

[sampsa]

I have tended to go for boats on all of my coastal resources ASAP but I suspect getting a settler out and the second (hopefully better) city online is better?

Boating three 4-tiles before a settler is a big mistake in general, assuming there is a decent, connected 2nd city spot.

 

[coanda]

The obvious starting move is move scout S-SW onto the hill and hope like hell you find something useful down there. I'd even be tempted to just go on a blind walkabout with this start, simply pack up and start heading west looking for a better city site, but that's probably not optimal play if your goal is minimize the number of losses.

Assuming the scout sees nothing and you aren't feeling a wanderlust, I can't see anywhere in the city's immediate proximity looking more promising than SIP.

AH-BW seems like too much tech cost. If you had even a single other tile worth improving here - something besides ocean, forests, and a single plainscow - it'd be a much more tempting line. As it is, your worker pops out T15, makes the pasture, and then... sits around twiddling his fingers for the next ten turns or so.

BW-Fishing ought to simply be faster than Fishing-BW here. As long as there are forests to be chopped, 1 worker-turn = 5 hammers. Fishing - BW with a warrior-work boat-worker opening isn't gonna get that worker until ~T27, while BW - Fishing is gonna get that worker T15 (although he'll have maybe 3 or 4 "wasted" turns due to the awkwardness of the fishing tech timing and needing to move onto some forest tiles twice, once to prechop while waiting on Fishing and once to actually cut and get the work boat). Still, you're gaining ~8 worker turns (~40 hammers) at the cost of losing ~10 crab turns (~10F 20C).

Edit side note: the fact that the BW-Fishing line has a few throttled worker turns waiting on Fishing tech makes it less painful to spend turns early on looking for a better city site; you'd be banking beakers for those turns so the worker gets about as much done by T30 either way. Probably a map-script-dependent decision.

 

[sampsa]

Fishing is gonna get that worker T15 (although he'll have maybe 3 or 4 "wasted" turns due to the awkwardness of the fishing tech timing and needing to move onto some forest tiles twice, once to prechop while waiting on Fishing and once to actually cut and get the work boat)

I think building nothing beats pre-chopping quite easily. Build nothing loses only 2pt, doesn't waste any WT (valued 5) and gets the boat out faster, so wins some .

 

[Fippy]

Forested fur tile for SIP which makes worker first less painful, even without BW first.
Cows + 124 furs isn't that horrible anymore. I dislike going fishing for clams or crab.

 

[sampsa]

@drewisfat amazing insight! I kind of felt the opening area is too strong to wander (food and trees), plus CRE helps if you are getting somewhat blocked. Of course, there is the possibility of getting heavily blocked. I have no experience with arid climate so didn't know there will be plenty of fps. SIP and settler first OTOH feels insanely slow, but I understand it's a prophylactic measure.

 

[Fippy]

In this case you would find floodplains but no food resi, still need a 15t worker i think after walking..very slow start.
On deity when i have only floodplains and basically nothing that speeds me up early, and i sit somewhere in the middle i know barbs will become a huge problem.

 

[Fippy]

So you wouldn't settle on gold there? Someone had to make that joke

 

[soundjata]

It's not so clear on the screenshot what all these golds and furs are about.

On such a start the obvious move would indeed be GTFO.

 

[pi-r8]

Hi All,

Collecting a list of strategies for coastal starts. These can be unintuitive to play, at least for me, and also without playing through multiple options can be tough to judge what is better.

Plan is to tackle a start at a time, discuss options and predict which will be best. Then someone will play through each option and we can conclude. This way, in time hopefully some general ‘rules’ can be developed.

For the first start I propose this one (stolen from @Henrik75 recent Zara game)

Spoiler :

View attachment 619834

Here I think it is a given to SiP, although if others would disagree then keen to hear why. Obviously other settling positions might expand the options somewhat!

I see 3 general options:

Spoiler Option 1: Fishing First :

As exhibited by Henrik on video.
Tech path: Fishing, Bronze Working, Wheel (Henrik went Archery)
Grow to size 2 and then build a work boat, then worker to chop more boats.

Spoiler Option 2: Animal Husbandry First :

Tech path: Animal Husbandry, Fishing, Bronzeworking
Worker first, improve cow and furs, then chop

Spoiler Option 3: Bronze Working First :

Tech path: bronze working, fishing, wheel (Or animal husbandry)
Worker chops out a second worker. Then both workers chop boats.

Which option would you pick? Is there another better one I haven’t thought of?

I have played all three options through, and will reveal which I consider to be best after.

Really interesting start, and a challenging problem! I really don't know what's best here, but how about this as an alternative:

T0: Build a worker, research fishing
T7: finish fishing, start bronze working
T15: finish worker, move it to improve furs, start a work boat, work crabs
T20: finish fur camp, switch to furs
T21: move worker to a regular forest
T22: finish bronze working, and worker can start chopping. Start researching AH I guess? (or wheel)
T25: work boat finishes with 10 overflow, grow in 2 more turns.

A bit slow on food to started, but I think any start is going to be slow here. This way you get some extra early commerce, and then a reasonably fast work boat to grow, plus a worker to chop all those forests, but you're not burning them all right away.

with your option 3 (BW first, chop a second worker) you don't finish a work boat until turn 27, growth in 4 more turns, and less commerce. You do have a second worker, but at the cost of having to chop 2 more forests.

 

[sampsa]

I also missed the fur thing in my earlier comments and I do think it it opens up some additional possibilities as mentioned by pi-r8.

I got a T38 connected 2nd city with double worker first. Rather slow, but not hopeless.

Spoiler :

I did improve the fur when growing to 2, not sure if that's a great idea compared to just chopping. Maybe it's best to just switch to slavery and 1-pop whip the next settler, since I'd think racing to city sites is more important than commerce. Of course safety is a bit thin (1 warrior, 1 scout ) but can connect copper and 1-pop in 2nd city if needed.

Single worker, chops, 1-pop whip settler.

Spoiler :

It is a 4T faster 2nd city (and in slavery already), but I'd guess it's worse? Spent no time thinking about tech path, just clicked wheel-agri (after BW-fish).

I also tried the wander-route

Spoiler :

Pretty horrible, which is my own fault of course. You just need to pick a spot that allows you to chop.

I don't think it's very fair to compare wander-route to others, it's just results-oriented analysis. I mean it'd be very different if there was a spot with wet corn and stuff. If you think it's the best play on T0, then you need to do it.

 

[Heathcliff]

It depends on if have alot of room or not.
If you have alot of room there is no hurry to expand and you can spend some time improving the capital building workboats and whip out the settlers.
The extra commerce from working the ocean is worth it.
But if you gets boxed in if you expand slowly, then you need to start out settlers at once and forget about the coast.
Your initial scounting with the warrior will guide you what to do.

 

[Henrik75]

Hey all, some really great insight here. thanks for all the suggestions and opinions I am really lucky to read, I am horrible with coastal starts myself so I am glad to get this information.

 

[Nick723]

Thanks all for such great replies. Incredible the depth of possibilities that one start can give! Tough to come to some conclusions, but I think we can perhaps say that teching fishing first to improve a 4 food seafood resource is not worth it when other options are available.

For what it’a worth, of the 3 play throughs I did, the strongest I felt was

Spoiler The winner! :

Option 3!

I don’t think I’ve ever done this approach in a game, so was quite an eye opener for me.

Anyone is welcome to post the next start, else I will do in the next couple of days!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Sometimes the only way to deal with a coastal start is... don't.

From a recent game:

Spoiler :

I saw the start and instinctively decided to Keep Moving until I find somewhere to place farms or get eaten by animals.

Turn 6. I have never settled that late. Good thing I did because Arabia was in my face and could have squeezed me into the little strip of land.

Good thing I moved because there was no strategic resources anywhere near my default start. Now I have access to one single iron resource that I could not have gotten had I settled in place.

I stopped playing after Arabia declared on me and I took their cities. I could not imagine a way to victory had I not obtained iron.

 

[NightOnEarth]

I've had a similar start in a recent game, so I'm glad to read all your in depth comments and advices.

BW-Fishing ought to simply be faster than Fishing-BW here. As long as there are forests to be chopped, 1 worker-turn = 5 hammers. Fishing - BW with a warrior-work boat-worker opening isn't gonna get that worker until ~T27, while BW - Fishing is gonna get that worker T15 (although he'll have maybe 3 or 4 "wasted" turns due to the awkwardness of the fishing tech timing and needing to move onto some forest tiles twice, once to prechop while waiting on Fishing and once to actually cut and get the work boat). Still, you're gaining ~8 worker turns (~40 hammers) at the cost of losing ~10 crab turns (~10F 20C).

Edit side note: the fact that the BW-Fishing line has a few throttled worker turns waiting on Fishing tech makes it less painful to spend turns early on looking for a better city site; you'd be banking beakers for those turns so the worker gets about as much done by T30 either way. Probably a map-script-dependent decision.

If I understand correctly, you're addressing the gap between the completion of worker/BW and fishing being available. With all that forrests available, could it be worthwile to bridge this gap by chopping into a settler? As soon as fishing is teched, put the workboat to the top of the queue. In the meanwhile, the warrior should have scouted the surrounding area for a suitable spot of the second city. Does this make sense?

 

[Whisker]

Another start. We start on PH, have gold and two food sources and SIP reveals more goodies.
Capital after SIP has monster potential, but our starting techs have no synergy at all with resources available. Worse, we're stuck on narrow peninsula, leading to threat of being boxed-in.

I chose SIP, but how would you proceed and what would you do tech wise?
BW is two tech away, so is AH leading to very long time before we have any food online. Is this one of those rare coastal starts where, going wb first despite starting without fishing, is way to go?
Starting position:

Spoiler After SIP :

Save attached, Deity, BUFFY, random map script, no huts, random events on.