Combat System Overhaul (Part 1 of ...): Splitting iCombat [UNCLARIFIED]

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I will repost one of my oldest ideas for Combat Changes.
(Later it became the base for the much bigger "Combat System Overhaul" concept I have today.)

But we need to work in small steps.
So here we go with the first small step ...

Sorry for copy & pasting my old concept.
But I want to have discussion here in the WTP forum.

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I will not create a poll for this, because this is basically a modders discussion.
There is no direct gameplay yet involved - but it can create a very powerful system.

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To simplify the whole idea:

I want to create a much more diverse Combat System with many more balancing options to create specialized roles for Combat.
(Tanks, Glass Cannons, Short Range, Long Range, ...)

The excerpt you see below is just the first part on that Road which I call "Combat System Overhaul".
On top of that I have other concepts "Promotion Overhaul", "Rebuild of Cannons", ... all have the same goal as well.

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Comment:

The change I suggest in the following post sounds small for a player.
But every modder for Civ4Col should be able to estimate how massive it is.

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I just copied the original text:
(original post , incl. discussion with other modders)

Spoiler :

Hi guys,

over the last years I have read a lot of posts and had several intersting discussions with other modders about the Combat System.
(Of course there are many interesting ideas out there.)

Although I am (currently) not modding anymore, I thought I would present my conclusion of the elemental changes I consider to be the base for a more interesting combat system.
(A lot of other people came to similar conclusions so it is not necessarily "my" idea.)

Currently a Unit has this value:

iCombat

It resembles

• Health
• Attack Strength
• Defense Strength

Thus creating versified combat is really difficult.
(A unit is simply either strong or weak.)

And yes I know, that there are TerrainAttacks, TerrainDefenses, FeatureAttacks, FeatureDefenses, UnitClassAttackMods, UnitClassDefenseMods and UnitCombatMods.
(But the Combat System I have in mind is more complex than that.)

To enable a more versified combat system I think it migth be interesting to spilt up iCombat to these 3:

iHealth --> Damage a unit can take
iAttack --> Damage a unit deals while attacking
iDefense --> Damage a unit deals while defending

Thus it would get possible to have units that are:

* Strong attacker but weak defender
* Strong defender but weak attacker
* Being able to take a lot of damage but not dealing much
...

The modifiers listed above and also all modifiers from Promotions, Founding Fathers ... would of course still be part of the computations.

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The complete combat system I was dreaming of (and started creating concepts) is much more complex, but these changes would be the base for it.

But be warned:

Even implementing something that sounds that simple will require lots of adjustments.

• Coding for new combat calculations.
• A lot of AI decisions (combat behaviour, buying, training, ...) would need to be adjusted.
• A lot of rebalancing (units, promotions, terrain modifiers, ...) would get necessary.

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Well, maybe somebody might find that idea interesting.

Edit:

By the way, similar changes would need to be done to Professions.

iCombatChange would be split up into

iHealthChange
iAttackChange
iDefenseChange

 

[ConjurerDragon]

The plan to make units diverse by having some have a high attack rating but low defence while others have high defence but low attack would make only sense if stacking units in the same square would be severely limited.
Otherwise every stack would simply contain some of both and attack of the best attacker and defence of the best defender would be used?

The field of combat is still far too large to have individual companies each on it´s own square - after all even on the gigantic map a square extends over miles, not a few metres.

 

[raystuttgart]

The plan to make units diverse by having some have a high attack rating but low defence while others have high defence but low attack would make only sense if stacking units in the same square would be severely limited.

More or less true.
But my "Combat Overhaul" contains about 10 parts.

One of them deals with "Stacks" in combination with "Brave Lieutenants" / "Generals" (that increase stack levels from small to medium and then large).
(So yes, Stacks would get smaller - a bit limitted - but I need time to explain and introduce all of that.)

Otherwise every stack would simply contain some of both and attack of the best attacker and defence of the best defender would be used?

Would become quite dangerous with the "Combat Overhaul" I want to design.
You would get an easy prey to "Bombard and Collateral Damage" from Artilleries.

See here:

Bombard --> High Attack Range (Lower Bombard and Collateral Damage)

Summary:

Have some patience.
Each single part of the "Combat Overhaul" is just a puzzle piece of a much bigger picture.
I do not create just "single feature concepts" in my game design.
Usually mutliple features are needed to work together so it gets full potential.

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This is not yet a "gameplay" discussion.
This is a modders discussion to enhance technical possibilities of the Combat System.

Once technical possibilities are there, we will see how we will use them in detail to build gameplay.
But first we need to decide if we invest the effort to enhance the Combat System that way.

 

[orlanth]

I think this could be really interesting, and I believe there may even be some Civ4 mods that have used Attack and Defense values very successfully (for instance I think the huge Fall From Heaven mod series of Civ4 may have used such a mechanic - I may be misremembering though it’s been a long time lol!)

It would require some careful thought through the issues like ConjurerDragon had said (for example considering that point about stacks, could it even make sense to let Promotions of attacker and defender affect a “tactical initiative” value during an attack and thus influence which unit in a massive stack will be the first defender to respond? This could be neat for allowing special nimble Escort ships that have a high ability to always defend any units they escort, while massive sluggish Galleons may have a high base strength but be somewhat less nimble in always being the first to intercept ships during an attack).

Anyway, will clearly need some thought and planning but could certainly create opportunities for variety in Units/Promotions to become much more strategically interesting.

 

[raystuttgart]

Anyway, will clearly need some thought and planning but could certainly create opportunities for variety in Units/Promotions to become much more strategically interesting.

My "Combat Overhaul" is simply too big to build in one step.
It is more of a "collection of features" designed to work together.

We first need to implement basic / elementary pieces like this.
Later we can work on more "high level" pieces like e.g. "Stacks".

The balancing capabilities this "enhancement" will allow would definitely not destroy anything.
They just add possibilities for fine tuning in balancing that are needed for the rest.

 

[raystuttgart]

Just bumping "ACCEPTED" old concepts so they get further up in the queue again.