Communism: A Real Evil or A Victim of Propaganda?

[~Corsair#01~]

The problem with Soviet communism was that is was doomed from the start. The USSR wasn't ready for it, it probably wasn't even ready for Capitalism.
Stalin did what he did, because he felt he had to. Millions paid the price. But what if he didn't? What if he had tried to reduce the military, stop ruling with an iron fist, let people be free?
I doubt there'd be any more than 10 million still alive in the entire USSR, and they would survive only because the Nazis needed some slave labour.
Stalin made many mistakes after WW2, as did those who came after him. But when you bring it back to the core, the USSR was doomed from the beginning. Well, 1933, at any rate.

 

[Gelion]

My 2 cents: "Every government is as good as the people who run it". and "every nation has the government it deserves".

Winner I'm sorry what you had to go through even as a kind, but Prague Spring was not an attempt to merge anythig. I guess you might call it that, but it was a peacefull revolution. USSR wanted control over EE and that control was undermined. As for the voters, we still do have about 20-30% of people who vote for CP and I suspect that with time this proportion will decrease. Before you say anything just see the 2 quotes I wrote again. You wouldn't have a stupid system like that if there were no people in your own nation who supported it. As in every other nation. Period.

I do believe in Communism (hence my title), but are you good enough to be under a "true Communism"?

 

[Winner]

Well, the Germany or Czech republic are great examples of bad merge of socialism and capitalism, because socialism prevails. We must decide, what we really want - welfare state, which will surely collapse due to demographic problems (for example the rent (pension) budget in Germany is in great deficit, whic is growing every year). I think liberalism with some social cover is the best way. But i wouldnt call it mix of communism and democracy. It is only modified capitalism, modified to be more humane. We all agree that capitalism of 19. century is not very good way to go

 

[Winner]

Stalin did what he did, because he felt he had to. Millions paid the price. But what if he didn't? What if he had tried to reduce the military, stop ruling with an iron fist, let people be free?
I doubt there'd be any more than 10 million still alive in the entire USSR, and they would survive only because the Nazis needed some slave labour.
Stalin made many mistakes after WW2, as did those who came after him. But when you bring it back to the core, the USSR was doomed from the beginning. Well, 1933, at any rate.

Well, actually people in Ukraine or Baltic welcomed Germans as liberators In Estonia they even built a memorial to Waffen SS soldiers, who fought for they "liberty". The stalinism was the same as so-called national-socialism. Stalin murdered thousands of polish officiers in some forest in east Poland, after USSR annexed it. Methods of Stalin and Hitler were similar.

 

[Gelion]

I created this thread with the intent of gettings facts about Communism (and maybe comparisons to other governments) without the propaganda, so as to get a better understanding of what worked, what failed, and what was or can be learned from it. Opinions are welcome also, as a revised form of Communism or Socialism is likely the next step towards a Unified-type government - but please, no trolling or flaming. We all know democracy won out - but this is not an America-CCCP thread, it's meant for the understanding of Communism and the future of a potential revised version.

 

[BasketCase]

I'm glad to see a plethora of responses here, as many good points were made. However, I still don't have enough reason to call Communism unreasonable.

The CCCP failed, but in another version, China has found at least some success. Many have said it isn't worth the effort to live under Communism because the people can't abide, but what if they did? Could it not thrive if given enough time? I look at the military, and though they aren't following Communist patterns, they are working together with a not so far off approach. If Communism can't work the way it's been done so far, what could be altered to make it work - assuming the people give it a fair shot as a whole?

How is China succeeding as a Communist state?? The means of production are under the control of a dictatorship, not the people. The class structure in China is a blatant violation of the "classless society" tenet of Communism. They have a severe population problem, pollution is out of control, and the government's body count is positively horrid. Kulade quoted 65 million dead. I wasn't surprised at his total for the Soviet Union (I'd seen the Soviet Union's 20-million-person scorecard in the past) but I blanched when I saw his number for China.

These are not new problems. China has been saddled with them for at least a decade, and they're not improving. China cannot continue as it has. The only improvements they've been seeing are economic--as the quietly switch to a capitalist economic system.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

When people mention those who died in the Gulag, for some reason they like to pretend they were all innocent. About 5 millions only crime was to be in the church/ oppose Stalin/ think about opposing Stalin/ think about considering wondering about giving opposing Stalin some thought.
The other 10/15 million were convicted murderers and rapists, and they were sent to the working campos as an alternative to firing-squad.

 

[Gelion]

When people mention those who died in the Gulag, for some reason they like to pretend they were all innocent. About 5 millions only crime was to be in the church/ oppose Stalin/ think about opposing Stalin/ think about considering wondering about giving opposing Stalin some thought.
The other 10/15 million were convicted murderers and rapists, and they were sent to the working campos as an alternative to firing-squad.

Corsair can you hold it before I send you to where you seem to know so much about . Things like this are not terribly funny. ITs like making jokes about Holocost.

 

[MajII]

The other 10/15 million were convicted murderers and rapists, and they were sent to the working campos as an alternative to firing-squad.

I find it hard to have much faith in a justice system that is inextricably linked to the executive and legislative branches of the government. In other words, I do not trust the convictions handed down by a tyrannical government. Some of these 10-15 million may have been murderers and rapists, though I doubt many of them actually were.

Sometimes a threat to power is more easily removed when a false reason is presented for public consumption.

 

[Clito]

A corrupt democracy isn't anything compared to a non-corrupt communist government, let alone a corrupt communist dictatorship.

Let's pretend that I am a mechanic, and I fix car heating systems in the Lada factory in Volgograd.

One day, a letter arrives saying that I have 24hours to pack my things with all my family because I have to move to another factory 3,000 miles away in Siberia to fix military fighter planes.

I cannot argue, I cannot complain. I cannot take any legal action. I cannot even say anything to my friends or co-workers.

I must do what I am told.

Where's the political freedom there?


Even if Dick Cheney gets lots of back-handers, who gives a damn, because he's probably getting past some stupid red tape so some business man can make alot of money.

I can still go where I want, work where I want, take action against the law, I can speak my mind and I can have peace of mind knowing all this.

 

[nonconformist]

Communism is a victim of propaganda in many cases.
It is all a victim of circumstances, where "circumstances" are ususally decided by the USA.

People quote Stalin as the "communist" figurehead, (despite his being a fascist), and not Gorbachev, or Walesa, nor Scargill. Well, I seem to remember there are a number of capitalists that did a lot worse.

Also the problem is people: Communism is an extremely moral type of government, relying on people's sense of honour and willingness, while capitalism forces people into a more or less blackmail position: do or die. Communism is extremely viable in small communities where there is noone attempting to undermine it, but, sadly, in the real world, if you attempt it, the world's only superpower will throw everythig it has at you.

 

[Gelion]

Also the problem is people: Communism is an extremely moral type of government, relying on people's sense of honour and willingness, while capitalism forces people into a more or less blackmail position: do or die.

Best quote ever in thsi thread!

 

[luiz]

People quote Stalin as the "communist" figurehead, (despite his being a fascist), and not Gorbachev, or Walesa, nor Scargill. Well, I seem to remember there are a number of capitalists that did a lot worse.

Capitalists who did "a lot worse" then Stalin?! Are you mad?

 

[nonconformist]

Capitalists who did "a lot worse" then Stalin?! Are you mad?

Well, considering Stalin was in power 30 years, I can think of one.

 

[luiz]

Well, considering Stalin was in power 30 years, I can think of one.

Besides(perhaps) Mao, Pol-Pot and possibly Genghis Khan and Hitler, Stalin was the worst ruler ever on this planet.

And the 4 guys I mentioned were not exactly Capitalists.

In fact 3 of them were Socialists, and the other was a mongol overlord.

 

[Darth_Pugwash]

@noncon

10 characters

A few random facts:
In the Soviet Union 20 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In China 65 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In Cambodia 2 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In North Korea 2 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In Vietnam 1 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In Eastern Europe 1 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In Africa 1.7 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In Afghanistan 1.5 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In Latin America 0.15 Million inocents have dies in communist control.
In total that's 94 Million inocents have dies in communist control.

Communism? Evil? What ever made you think that?

 

[nonconformist]

@noncon

10 characters

Take the number of people killed by:
Hitler
Pinochet
Reagan
Nixon
Kennedy
Clinton
Bush Sr
Bush Jr
Truman
Every head of the CIA and SOA
Mussolini
Thatcher
etc. etc.

 

[luiz]

Take the number of people killed by:
Hitler
Pinochet
Reagan
Nixon
Kennedy
Clinton
Bush Sr
Bush Jr
Truman
Every head of the CIA and SOA
Mussolini
Thatcher
etc. etc.

Hitler and Mussolini were Socialists.
The Nazi Party was the National Socialist Party, and they hated "International Capitalism" and Liberalism. In fact they blamed the decay of Europe on Liberalism.
Mussolini was originally a member of the Italian Socialist Party, and the only reason why he broke up with them was their lack of Nationalism. Mussolini, much like Hitler, was a nationalistic socialist.

As for the others, sum up and you will not equate to a single communist tyrant of that list.

If to criticise Capitalism one must resort to notable anti-Capitalists such as Hitler or Mussolini, it is clear that one is on shaky grounds.

 

[Gelion]

You are already wrong there: Hitler liked Capitalism as such and was more of a Capitalist himself than a Socialist. Even his army was kitted {sp} out by "private" companies like in most "western" countries.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

Well, actually people in Ukraine or Baltic welcomed Germans as liberators In Estonia they even built a memorial to Waffen SS soldiers, who fought for they "liberty". The stalinism was the same as so-called national-socialism. Stalin murdered thousands of polish officiers in some forest in east Poland, after USSR annexed it. Methods of Stalin and Hitler were similar.

Perhaps you should replace "USSR" with "Russia", although I'm fairly certain at least a quarter of the Sovietites Hitler killed were non-Russian.