Communism as a Religion

[Al-Iskander]

Hello. This is my first post, so pardon if it's been discussed before.

Anyway, I was reading the Rhyewiki Modcomps page, and noticed the discussion of possible alternatives to Judaism.

I know Communism would happen far too late in the game to be a real alternative to Judaism (and would make the India UHV a bit of a crazy epic struggle). However, in my humble opinion, Communism in history behaved like something of a religion, and there is a reasonable case for adding it to a "realistic" historical mod like Rhye's. It hadprophets (Marx, Lenin, Mao, etc.), holy texts (Das Kapital, The Manifesto, Little Red Book), and even a clergy and church of sorts in the Party. Also, when we talk about it historically, we talk about its spread to new areas, its agitation against the existing regime, its intolerance towards established religions (which would work great with inquisitors), and the wars waged in its name.

Temples could be Culture Houses, monasteries could be Party Schools (though I guess they'd be obsolete by this point, unless you make it a different building), missionaries could be renamed Agitators or Propagandists or something, and the Shrine could be Lenin's Tomb or maybe the International.

I guess alternatively you could be a police state/state property with no official religion that inquisits (is that a word?) the heck out of established religions, but this is kind of shooting yourself in the foot since even Free Religion (which is *not* representative of 1917-Thaw Communism) requires that you have *a* religion to get the bonuses. A theocracy with no state religion would probably be the best representation currently in game, but it's a waste of bonuses.

One problem would probably be that it would never spread fast enough to make it worth switching to... unless the human player pumps out Communist missionaries to flood an opponent's empire just to watch them slide into anarchy... for a turn... which isn't really worth it.

Probably best would be if someone could point me towards a modding tutorial so I can code this up myself and just play it alone

Anyhow, thanks for reading.

 

[sennomulo]

I don't think communism really fits the definition of a religion. The word "religion" implies some sort of supernatural element, whereas most communists (including me) do not believe in anything supernatural. Also, the word "communism" encompasses a huge variety of political beliefs, from anarcho-communists like myself to democratic socialists like the euro-communist parties to totalitarian Stalinism. About the only thing we can agree on is that capitalism is bad and it needs to be replaced with a more egalitarian economic system.

EDIT: Also remember that communism is already sort of represented by the State Property civic.

 

[phantom59]

This gave me a semi-relative idea; what if communisim was a corperation? (I know, I know, the ultimate oxymoron)

How it would work,

Communisim would be a very strange corp, as you could adopt state property yet still reap the benifits of the communisim corp. Its executives would be very unusual also. These execs would be able to enter other nations w/o open borders, but would have a low sucsess rate. I dont realy know what the benifits of the corp should be, as there are so many different types of communisim, perhaps it could change in relation to your other civics, for example, police state in combo with the corp wouldnt have the same effect of universal sufferage and the corp.

Or a ideals system that replaces religion, like Nazism, Communism, Democracy. And religious conflicts could be represented by Islamo-Fascism and other things like that with a dynamic diplo modifier. (Commies hate Nazis, Nazis hate Democracies, Democracies dont realy care about other democracies, While Nazis like other nazis, and Commies like other commies)

 

[Riker]

I guess that Islam and fascism are really close in your holy book, aren't they?

 

[phantom59]

I guess that Islam and fascism are really close in your holy book, aren't they?

Now that I think about it that wasnt realy the best choice of words, but I'm sure most people know what I mean. (Also, at least of what I know, the Quaran and the Bible dont differ that mutch, it's just what some sects view as literal, and others view as figurative. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not one of those crazy idiots infested by Islamophobia) Any way, a ideals system would probably be too controversial and personaly, I would rather not have it at all than see it be exactly like religion. (For example, I can think of more than a few leaders that would be ideal zelots similar to Izzy, and would pick up an early ideal that didnt fit them, mutch like Izzy with Budhism. And it would be silly to have Communism have the same effect on your civ as Capitalism)

 

[The Q-Meister]

As a Poli Sci major I must say, this is a really dumb idea. I concur with what Riker said on the subject, other than that, it's not a very well thought out proposal. If this sounds arrogant forgive me, but I hope some of you do take a Introduction to Political Theories 101 course in the near future.

 

[The Q-Meister]

EDIT: Also remember that communism is already sort of represented by the State Property civic.

No.

There have been plenty of usages of state property throughout history outside the "Communist" world (whatever definition of the term we are using) including fascist and monarchist governments for instance. Even capitalist governments have used state property to some extent.

 

[Al-Iskander]

As a Poli Sci major I must say, this is a really dumb idea. I concur with what Riker said on the subject, other than that, it's not a very well thought out proposal. If this sounds arrogant forgive me, but I hope some of you do take a Introduction to Political Theories 101 course in the near future.

Ouch. Yes, that did sound a bit arrogant. Especially considering that I too have a PoliSci BA. As one of a given kind to another, being a Political Science Major absolutely does not make you the last word on anything political. You're going to find Economists, Sociologists, Economists, and a wide range of other people, especially who don't have degrees, who don't appreciate that sort of condescending attitude. I intentionally was ignoring the theoretical basis of Communism, focusing instead on my understanding of how it was applied in practice in the Soviet Union and Mao's China (also in what was once the People's Republic of Mongolia).

Anyway, how about another alternative, since it seems that some of you think having Communism as a "religion" would open the floodgates for the introduction of Nazism, Capitalism, and way too many ideologies which could get mixed in unfavorably with recognized "world religions."

Communism and Religion v2:
Would it be plausible to alter the way the various religion civics work such that, after you discover Communism, if you set your State Religion to "None," they give you their bonuses if you have no religion in a given city? Say you're Russia, as a "None" Theocracy. You only get the Experience bonus in Moscow if Moscow has no religions. The same would be true for the production bonus of Organized Religion or Pacifism. There would have to be some downside to purging your cities of religions, however. Maybe a mild-to-severe happiness penalty?

It seems to me, Q-Meister, that we agree that Communism as it was applied (put Marx's theories on the back-burner for a bit) in the Soviet Union and the pre-Deng PRC isn't adequately represented in the game. I would rather have a productive discussion of Civ than just call each other names. Rather than calling other people stupid, why not tell us how you would do it?

 

[lumpthing]

I also have a Pol Sci BA (and if we're going to wallow academic elitism here, I got a first) and I too found Q-Meister's response arrogant and unfounded. I'm not sure what I think about Al-Iskander's proposal but its certainly not 'a really dumb idea'.

 

[Kweeky]

i r majur, i bet than u. wotch me flp bugars.

Instead of casting down a holier than thou attitude, why not actually have some constructive discussion with Al-Iskander about the strengths and flaws in his proposal and suggestions on how to improve it?

 

[sdLeo]

i'm a polisci major too! Q-Meister's comments may have been arrogant, but I also thought it was a bad idea, Iskander...

Cheers!

 

[Whitefire]

(============8

Mine's bigger than both of yours. Regardless, I don't know what PoliSci has to do with game design, but I'm pretty sure it's not fun. Not to mention that the main RFC mod is locked and such cosmetic changes will not be implemented.

 

[Cucumber]

Great I'm too a politisci graduatedman I'm pretty smart and very nice looking I love myself and my incredible knowledge !

Well after that self-satisfaction minute I would like to say that in a perfect civilization game you could have a SUPERPOSITION of religion and, after let say the industrial revolution, Ideology. So you may have christiannity+democracy or fascism, communism could force your civ to select the no religion civic, you can imagine differents bonus or malus for each of these three ideology (I don't see more generic and historically effective ideologies than these three)
for example, production bonus for the cocos, income bonus for democracy, military bonus for fascism etc

But the greatest part would be that its not working as a religion, every civ can choose between the three choices (maybe a fourth one, neutral or something, with no bonus could be interesting too) after dicovering the needed tech, they may made that choice depending on their relationships with other civs etc etc...

did you find it interesting?

 

[Lone Wolf]

No.

There have been plenty of usages of state property throughout history outside the "Communist" world (whatever definition of the term we are using) including fascist and monarchist governments for instance. Even capitalist governments have used state property to some extent.

Yes. Communism in its Stalinist interpretation is State Property + Police State + Slavery (to represent Gulag and stuff lile that).

 

[Aeon221]

Communism as a religion makes sense to me (Econ major)! You can't support the conclusions of communists with math, so that stuff MUST be a religion.

 

[sennomulo]

What are you smoking? It must be some good stuff.

By that logic, you'd have to call practically any kind of abstract thinking a religion: communism, socialism, capitalism, feudalism, democracy, impressionism, psychology, psychiatry, philosophy, literary criticism, aesthetics, epistemology, morality, political science... Just because something isn't a purely mathematical discipline of thought doesn't mean it's a religion.

 

[Newbunkle]

Yeah, Communism should be a religion, but it provides:

+ Production
- Happiness
- Commerce
- Food
- Diplomacy

etc.

There should also be a way of removing religions from cities, so they can be rooted out if a rival sneaks some commies into your territory.

 

[Spearthrower]

Communism is an idealogy, not a religion.

 

[Corm]

Communism is an idealogy, not a religion.

'bout time someone pointed that out although Whitefires last post is the only one that really matters.

Die thread, die!