Communism -v- Fascism

[walletta]

My preferred path in a domination game is Despotism - Republic - Communism. I find Communism good for war and good for large-scale empire management, due to the low corruption and consequent increased productivity of the outer cities. Consequently, I never research or switch to Fascism, although the AI seems to like it.

Does anyone regularly use Fascism? If so, why? What are its pluses and minuses, especially in comparison with Communism?

 

[tjs282]

My preferred path in a domination game is Despotism - Republic - Communism. I find Communism good for war and good for large-scale empire management, due to the low corruption and consequent increased productivity of the outer cities. Consequently, I never research or switch to Fascism, although the AI seems to like it.

As I understand it, Fascism is usually one of the first 3 Industrial techs that the AIs tend to research (after Nationalism and then Communism).

If they're at peace, they'll tend already to be and stay in Republic or Democracy, but if they were already involved in an extended war when they got to Communism (first), they would likely have switched already to reduce WW (which I believe is a major trigger for AI-revolutions). Since they'd already be in a zero-WW gov, they might then not 'need' to go Fascist when they get that tech. However, if they get into a long war after they get to Fascism, they revolt into it instead almost by default (losing 2 pop-points from every town) for the zero WW and higher free-unit mantenance (7 per City vs 6 under Commie).

(And long wars are almost inevitable in the late game, given that the AIs also 'love' making MPPs, which they've been able to do since getting Nationalism -- i.e. likely at least 2 techs earlier). But because Fascism is not actually that great a gov-form (in-game and in life?), revolting tends to hinder the AI rather than help it -- especially if you (or your allies) are now Arty-bombing it, and/or rolling Cavs/Tanks over it, and it starts desperately drafting its remaining citizens, then whipping the rest to death, to defend its borders from your boarders.

So it's not so much that the AI 'loves' Fascism, rather that it drunkard's-walks its way into that ditch, and then can't easily get out again before you've killed it.

Does anyone regularly use Fascism? If so, why? What are its pluses and minuses, especially in comparison with Communism?

Did you read this article (and the related discussion) already? And also Theov's list of C3C gov-types?

To answer your question though -- I tend not to revolt more than once. I went through most of my last two games as a warmongering Republic -- a 'PTW-like' Monarch game as the Indians on a Standard Continents map (won Diplo-vic), and COTM 117 as the Americans, also at Monarch on a custom 'Archipelago' (won Dom-vic). I only signed peace once in the COTM, and I wish I hadn't, because not killing off the REDACTED when I had the chance after their first DoW, later slowed me down significantly, because after our second (and final) war, I then had to take some of their ex-cities from the REDACTED, fighting Medival Iron-units, instead of Ancient non-Iron-units.

 

[justanick]

Fascism tends to be the best government for mid sized empire at war that utilize military police but donnot utilize the luxus rate. AI tends to meet those requirements very often, the human player is usually best of to avoid it. Still 10 free units per metropolis vs. 8 in monarchy are an improvement and the veteran spies are nice, too.

 

[timerover51]

Fascism also has a work rate of 4, verses Communism's worker rate of 2. Democracy has a worker rate of 3 for some reason. I would have made Democracy 4 and Fascism 3, and give Republic a 3 for production as well.

One of these days, I am tempted to try Feudalism as an experiment.

 

[walletta]

As I understand it, Fascism is usually one of the first 3 Industrial techs that the AIs tend to research (after Nationalism and then Communism).

If they're at peace, they'll tend already to be and stay in Republic or Democracy, but if they were already involved in an extended war when they got to Communism (first), they would likely have switched already to reduce WW (which I believe is a major trigger for AI-revolutions). Since they'd already be in a zero-WW gov, they might then not 'need' to go Fascist when they get that tech. However, if they get into a long war after they get to Fascism, they revolt into it instead almost by default (losing 2 pop-points from every town) for the zero WW and higher free-unit mantenance (7 per City vs 6 under Commie).

(And long wars are almost inevitable in the late game, given that the AIs also 'love' making MPPs, which they've been able to do since getting Nationalism -- i.e. likely at least 2 techs earlier). But because Fascism is not actually that great a gov-form (in-game and in life?), revolting tends to hinder the AI rather than help it -- especially if you (or your allies) are now Arty-bombing it, and/or rolling Cavs/Tanks over it, and it starts desperately drafting its remaining citizens, then whipping the rest to death, to defend its borders from your boarders.

So it's not so much that the AI 'loves' Fascism, rather that it drunkard's-walks its way into that ditch, and then can't easily get out again before you've killed it.Did you read this article (and the related discussion) already? And also Theov's list of C3C gov-types?

To answer your question though -- I tend not to revolt more than once. I went through most of my last two games as a warmongering Republic -- a 'PTW-like' Monarch game as the Indians on a Standard Continents map (won Diplo-vic), and COTM 117 as the Americans, also at Monarch on a custom 'Archipelago' (won Dom-vic). I only signed peace once in the COTM, and I wish I hadn't, because not killing off the REDACTED when I had the chance after their first DoW, later slowed me down significantly, because after our second (and final) war, I then had to take some of their ex-cities from the REDACTED, fighting Medival Iron-units, instead of Ancient non-Iron-units.

Thanks tjs282. That's helpful.

 

[walletta]

Fascism also has a work rate of 4, verses Communism's worker rate of 2. Democracy has a worker rate of 3 for some reason. I would have made Democracy 4 and Fascism 3, and give Republic a 3 for production as well.

One of these days, I am tempted to try Feudalism as an experiment.

What means this 'worker rate' thing of which you speak?

 

[Lord AJ]

What means this 'worker rate' thing of which you speak?

That's the worker efficiency that you see in civilopedia. Rate 2 is the default, 100% that we get in Republic, despotism etc. 3 is 150% and 4 is 200% .

 

[tjs282]

What means this 'worker rate' thing of which you speak?

That will be the government-specific 'Worker-efficiency' setting in the Editor:

Rate 1 = -50% normal speed (Anarchy) -- job time doubled
Rate 2 = normal speed (Despot, Monarchy, Republic, Feudalism, Commie)
Rate 3 = +50% normal speed (Demo) -- job time reduced by 1/3
Rate 4 = +100% normal speed (Fascism) -- job time halved

This is a separate thing from, but works in tandem with, the increased Worker-speed given by the IND trait -- the latter only applies to Native Workers, whereas the Worker-rate applies to both Slaves and Natives (as does the effect of RepParts).

Dammit, X-posted again...

 

[justanick]

Rate 1 = -50% normal speed (Anarchy) -- job time doubled
Rate 2 = normal speed (Despot, Monarchy, Republic, Feudalism, Commie)
Rate 3 = +50% normal speed (Demo) -- job time reduced by 1/3
Rate 4 = +100% normal speed (Fascism) -- job time halved

That is inprecise but true.

This is a separate thing from, but works in tandem with, the increased Worker-speed given by the IND trait -- the latter only applies to Native Workers,

As i recall it the IND bonus does apply to slaves. So in facism slaves subjected by an industrious civs work at a rate of 3 before replaceable parts and at a rate of 6 after it. Be cautious about rounding in less obvious cases.

http://wiki.civforum.de/wiki/Bautruppaufträge_(Civ3)

 

[walletta]

I am playing the Maya right now. We've turned commie. We have replaceable parts. It takes a slave 8 turns to clear up pollution on a flat square while it takes a Mayan worker 4 turns.

 

[timerover51]

I am playing the Maya right now. We've turned commie. We have replaceable parts. It takes a slave 8 turns to clear up pollution on a flat square while it takes a Mayan worker 4 turns.

Rate 1 doubled would equal 2, while 2 for Communism doubled would give you 4. So your Mayan Communist worker would be twice as fast as the slave.

I am pretty sure that slaves work at Rate 1 unless doubled for Replaceable Parts.

 

[tjs282]

That is inpresice but true.

... which, just for the record, is how I usually answer questions here -- broad strokes, rather than the absolutely precise mechanics... Just so you know...

As i recall it the IND bonus does apply to slaves.

No, I don't believe it does:

In the most recent COTM (as the IND+EXP Americans), under Republic, shortly after I acquired Chivalry, and in preparation/continuation of a 3-front war, I was using the disconnect-reconnect trick for Spear-Pike and Horse-Knight upgrades. I could use a stack of 4 native Workers to road my Iron-Hill in a single turn: if I'd been running a non-IND civ, I would have needed 6 Workers (or 12 Slaves) to do that.

Conversely, during the late-game I was spending a lot of time shepherding cash-rushed Slaves around my conquered territories to clear the large quantities of Jungle left standing by my victims. Still under Republic, and before RepParts (I didn't need to go that far up the tree), a single Slave always needed 48T to do this, and then 6T to build a road in the cleared tile, if that hadn't already been done (I was mostly using 6-Slave gangs, to clear+road in 8+1T).

Now, I am aware that the COTM is a modded game, but the above exactly jibes with the 'base-turns to complete' quoted on the German Civ-Wiki you've linked: a non-IND civ's native Worker would clear Jungle and build a road in 24+3T, and an IND-Worker would need only 16+2T.

And FWIW, the slow Slaves in the COTM are also consistent with what I've seen (under Republic) in my other recent (unmodded) solo games -- none of which were played as an IND-civ.

So in facism slaves subjected by an industrious civs work at a rate of 3 before replaceable parts and at a rate of 6 after it. Be cautious about rounding in less obvious cases.

But here you're talking about the RepParts speed-up, not the IND Worker-bonus. And I did already say that the RepParts bonus applied to both Workers and Slaves.

EDIT: X-posted with both Timerover and Walletta this time. Damn, I'm good...

 

[justanick]

So in facism slaves subjected by an industrious civs work at a rate of 3 before replaceable parts and at a rate of 6 after it. Be cautious about rounding in less obvious cases.

But here you're talking about the RepParts speed-up, not the IND Worker-bonus.

Slaves subjected by a nonindustrious work only at a rate of 2 and later 4.

It is all multiplicative, but in the end it is rounded down, also the lower limit of 1 still applies. With the most governments slaves subjected by industrious civs get a rate of 1.5 which is rounded down to 1, but after RP they get 2 x 1.5 = 3 which is "rounded down" to 3.

Facism with its base rate of 4 has the convenience of avoiding those rounding issues.

 

[Lanzelot]

It is all multiplicative, but in the end it is rounded down, also the lower limit of 1 still applies. With the most governments slaves subjected by industrious civs get a rate of 1.5 which is rounded down to 1, but after RP they get 2 x 1.5 = 3 which is "rounded down" to 3.

Are you really sure about this? That would mean that in Vanilla/PtW, where the IND bonus is 100% rather than 50%, a slave would indeed work at rate 2 for an IND nation (no RP, no government bonus). I have never noticed that.

 

[justanick]

Well, i only refer to C3C 1.22, as for any earlier version i refrain from making a statement.

no government bonus

Goverments donnot give a bonus, they define the base rate. All boni are applied to the base rate in a multiplicative manner.

 

[Lanzelot]

Just for the record: I tested it a bit in PtW, and it is indeed the same: the IND trait applies to slaves! An industrious slave needs 3 turns for a road on grassland, so the 100% from IND are added to the slave worker power just like they are added to natives.

Interesting that in C3C it "disappears" as it gets rounded down, and then "reappears", once you get Replaceable Parts or switch into a government with a higher base rate! (Never noticed this consciously. I guess that's due to the fact that I never use a different government from Despotism and Republic... )

 

[timerover51]

Just for the record: I tested it a bit in PtW, and it is indeed the same: the IND trait applies to slaves! An industrious slave needs 3 turns for a road on grassland, so the 100% from IND are added to the slave worker power just like they are added to natives.

Interesting that in C3C it "disappears" as it gets rounded down, and then "reappears", once you get Replaceable Parts or switch into a government with a higher base rate! (Never noticed this consciously. I guess that's due to the fact that I never use a different government from Despotism and Republic... )

Hmm, that is interesting to know, as I play the Test of Time scenario in Play the World a lot. I was just wondering earlier today about Work Rates there.