Comparing V vs VI

I loved V because I disliked VI So much.
After playing many hours of V it became very samey, even superior areas like world congress became repetitive strings.
Having played over 7 times as much VI I am not as bored, some things are not good, but the choices each game just make you stop and think so much more.
 
I also found V to be very samey, didn't stop my enjoying it but VI is streaks ahead in my opinion. A few things I do miss from V:

1) Nominating agenda items for WC. I really don't like the random nature of the VI WC. In fact, although I prefer diplomatic favour to buying votes, the WC in V was better
2) Specialists that actually mean something
3) Having a choice over how to use Great People
4) Ideologies (the future era governments in VI should operate more like ideologies in my opinion)
5) Some of the sound effects
Otherwise I am fully in camp VI. :hatsoff:
 
I do have to question the "Civ-specific" music in Civ V though. Civ V made its music specific per region, so all music for Civs from western Europe was the same, that's hardly Civ-specific.
I was referring explicitly to the war and peace themes, which were Civ-specific, rather than making the point that all the music was Civ-specific. I actually think Civ VI does a better job than V with ambient music, which is genuinely specific to the Civ you are playing.
 
I just won my first two Deity games, Science with Poundmaker and Culture with Teddy. My next game will be Diplo with Catherine. I have finally reached the point that I understand the game and I am having fun. My biggest complaint so far (I even got used to the graphics) is that the maps feel a lot smaller to me compared to 5, your empires seemed a lot bigger in 5. Civ 5 will always remain my favourite, but I really enjoy Civ 6 right now.

Anyway, below are the list of games I won so far in 6:

R&F: Korea (Science) (Emperor)
R&F: Greece (Gorgo) (Cultural) (Emperor)
R&F: Rome (Domination) (Emperor)
R&F: India (Religious) (Emperor)
GS: China (Diplomacy) (Emperor)
GS: Persia (Culture) (Immortal)
GS: Mongolia (Domination) (Immortal)
GS: Inca (Science) (Immortal)
GS: Alexander (Domination) (Immortal)
GS: Ottomans (Domination) (Immortal)
GS: Hungary (Science) (Immortal)
GS: Greece (Pericles) (Culture) (Immortal)
GS: Scythia (Domination) (Immortal)
GS: Egypt (Diplomacy) (Immortal)
GS: Russia (Religious) (Immortal)
GS: Victoria (Naval Domination) (Immortal)
GS: Poundmaker (Science) (Deity)
GS: America (Culture) (Deity)

In my opinion, Civ 6 is a wonderful game. It's so detailed and you can see it's lovingly crafted. There's so much to learn and the learning curve is bigger than Civ 5. However, I think it's much easier to win than Civ 5. Maybe that's because I have something like 1700 hours in Civ 5 and some concepts carry over, I don't know. Once I understood that unlike in 5 this game wants you to expand as much as possible and district placement is crucial, it became a lot easier to win. In terms of challenge, I think Deity in V, even unmodded, offers a much greater challenge than VI. Even catching up in tech is very difficult in 5 unless you have insane production (Germany) or playing one of the OP civs (Babylon/Poland/Korea/Maya). In 6, it is not that big of a problem due to tech tree being split into civics and that for some conditions you dont really need science at all.

My favourite so far is culture, I just really enjoy culture games.Most annoying is Diplomacy, and Domination victories somehow feel very easy tho I have not tried my chance on Deity yet. I had something like a 50 turn crazy war with runaway Zulu in 5, so far I have not seen anything like that in 6. AI in 6 is very weak in combat (unless you are getting early rushed with 4 warriors) which makes Domination games kind of a pushover.
 
I've played Civs 3-6, though of course it has been longer since playing the earlier ones so it is harder to remember. The things I remember liking about each:
  • AIs that play differently. The agenda system is a great idea, though I wish diplomacy modifiers were a bit more hidden. Like just knowing 'huge negative' from missing agenda would be good, rather than -14. Just give me the ability to make the AIs at different difficulty levels so they can actually defeat each other and challenge me and I'll be thrilled
Nice post, and I agree with almost everything you mention from the different games, but this one I really can't get behind. Agendas are really one of the worst aspects of the diplomatic AI imo. Not only are most of them completely nonsensical, it also pretty much boils down to "100 ways to make the AI hate you for doing the things you have to do to play the game" and more-over, it kills replayability, because you'll always see the same AIs throw the same fits (Victoria will hate you just because, Qin will hate you for building wonders, Cleopatra will hate you for not building units all the time, Alexander and Gorgo will hate you for not being in war all the time, Harald will hate you for not having a large navy even when your 100 % landlocked, the Kongo dude will hate you for not spreading your religion to him the turn you found it, etc. etc.).
 
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I still think 6 with the scaling settler/builder costs is really far from what was originally called ICS, and 5 had a few patches of actual ICS... Flashbacks to Maddjinn youtube series with Rome/Mayans where he actually spammed Settlers into the tightest configurations the map would allow. There's perhaps something to be said about how it encourages expansionism quite a bit, but I still prefer that over the days of : I got my 4th city, I'm done.

I also just like the idea of... take resources on map safely ----> Good thing.

Wasn't a fan of Ideologies either... but I don't play late games all that often (it's kinda a slog in both games even after you've snowballed a position), and it felt a little silly. Like arbitrary teams forming up that often didn't match the current situation in the game. The pressure game was interesting, but felt gamey to me, and not particularly interactive.

I fully agree on ideologies - oddly this seems to be one of the more popular features of Civ V, but it tended to make the late game repetitive and uninteresting compared with pre-ideology versions of the game.

Civ V was the one entry in the series I didn't buy at release - I got into it after perhaps a year. From what I recall from discussions on the forum, the ICS period was before the first major patch since Civ V reportedly started in a much worse place than the initial releases of other members of the series.

I LOVE the music in Civ VI, but I agree. Some songs work better than others, especially in the late era. I do have to question the "Civ-specific" music in Civ V though. Civ V made its music specific per region, so all music for Civs from western Europe was the same, that's hardly Civ-specific.

I hope Civ VII continues the way music was done in Civ VI, but maybe add war and peace versions too.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here - every civ in Civ V had its own music, though only a single track rather than several each as in Civ VI. The Civ V rendition of I Vow to Thee My Country, the England soundtrack, is still my favourite piece of Civ music from any version of the game.

This thread has actually prompted me to redownload Civ V (it remains to this day my most-played game ever on Steam, apparently, with 983 hours). I've liked the way civs are treated in Civ VI but now I come to itemise it I can't really see anything much from Civ VI I'd miss by going back to Civ V (other than some of the music) and more than I realised that I miss from Civ V.

Maybe replaying it for a bit will reveal that there's some rose-tinting going on, but my sense right now that even in its final version (bar a few extra civs) Civ VI is a worse game.
 
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Nice post, and I agree with almost everything you mention from the different games, but this one I really can't get behind. Agendas are really one of the worst aspects of the diplomatic AI imo. Not only are most of them completely nonsensical, it also pretty much boils down to "100 ways to make the AI hate you for doing the things you have to do to play the game" and more-over, it kills replayability, because you'll always see the same AIs throw the same fits (Victoria will hate you just because, Qin will hate you for building wonders, Cleopatra will hate you for not building units all the time, Alexander and Gorgo will hate you for not being in war all the time, Harald will hate you for not having a large navy even when your 100 % landlocked, the Kongo dude will hate you for not spreading your religion to him the turn you found it, etc. etc.).

1) You have different civs in different games, so I would say the replayability goes up, not down
2) The leader agenda is only one of the 3 agendas they randomly get, so I would say the replayability goes up, not down
3) I wouldn't classify any of the leader agendas as nonsensical, and I want there to be some conflict. Friendship bubble is annoyingly boring and passive after the third game of it. Out of the agendas you listed:
  • Victoria is considering war against you so she can spread to your continent. Once she's there, she doesn't mind you. If you're actively on her home continent, she likes you. This aligns with her abilities, which give her no bonuses for more cities on her home continent, the biggest bonus for the first city on each other continent, and a small bonus for all foreign continent cities. She wants to fight and take cities on continents she is not on.
  • Qin doesn't want you to take wonders that he wanted to build. He doesn't care if you have some wonders as long as you have nowhere near as many as he does. This happens to line up exactly with how I play Qin: since I have a massive boost to producing early wonders, I expect to take them all, and will be pissed if I miss one. By then I have a huge lead on wonders and might even be out of good spots to put them, so I miss a few that I wasn't going to build anyways. If someone is actually building a similar amount of wonders as me, I will want to either attack them or convince someone else to attack them, to slow down the competition.
  • Cleopatra is being friendly to people who could kill her off, and aggressive to those who are weak and defenseless. This is perfectly reasonable
  • Alexander is better at war than you, so if both of you are at war all the time he is probably doing better out of it than you. And if you start pulling ahead your grievances with him will outweigh the agenda.
  • Gorgo is similar to Alexander, though with a twist to make it more flavorful (but less obviously gameplay-sensible). She wants fighting, not necessarily conquering, so just like with Alexander, she wants you to fight but not conquer so much, and not to let your opponents conquer you. Don't give up land to them, but you should at least fight sometimes. Please waste production on a stalemate, she says. If you conquer their stuff, again the grievances will outweigh the agenda
  • Harald wants some easy coasts to raid. If you have a navy, just like Cleopatra, he'll be nice to you, because you would be difficult to raid. If you don't, you're an easy target
  • Mvemba just complains immediately as a reminder to spread to him. He doesn't actually hate you yet, and you have plenty of time to spread to him. As Kongo I am also irritated at the AI when they are too slow to spread to me, and of course I want them to as soon as possible, so if I were in a multiplayer game I would immediately tell the other player to spread to me!
Genghis is the opposite of Harald, because he wants to declare war on those with cavalry so that he can steal their cavalry units. Teddy doesn't want anyone else to become strong on his continent because he wants to conquer his continent (or be unafraid of a huge neighbor so he can keep pumping out tourism), so he wants everyone else to be at peace on his continent. Curtin will hate you once you have cities to liberate, but if you've consolidated them (declared peace) then he'll give up because he won't succeed in a 1v1. Robert the Bruce is similar but is more preemptive, since he wants to fight as soon as the war starts, not as soon as you start winning. Since his abilities are tied to Liberation War and not Retribution War, this is one of the ones that has a slight problem.

But overall they are quite sensible. Even the ones that are slightly divorced from the actual abilities are still reasonable gameplay desires.
 
1) You have different civs in different games, so I would say the replayability goes up, not down
2) The leader agenda is only one of the 3 agendas they randomly get, so I would say the replayability goes up, not down

Varying in agendas just isn't enough variety in how the AI behaves compared with Civ IV/V personalty traits - the issue is with the agenda system itself. Agendas don't vary AI behaviour, only their attitudes towards other civs - and those attitude differences don't even consistency lead to rivalries or war, since the AI is pretty strongly stereotyped in the circumstances when it will declare war and - because it doesn't get the bonus units Civ V AIs did - it will routinely calculate that war against the player is unfavourable if the player has any kind of army. So you're pretty free to ignore the agendas of opposing civs without caring what they think about you.

In past Civ games there was much more variation in how civs behave than just what sorts of things would prompt them to declare war, and even that decision was handled with more nuance.

Harald wants some easy coasts to raid. If you have a navy, just like Cleopatra, he'll be nice to you, because you would be difficult to raid. If you don't, you're an easy target

Harald is the most egregious example of the agenda system failing in action. Again, the AI doesn't build units - and particularly doesn't build naval units. I'm as tired of Harald telling me my entirely landlocked civ's nonexistent coasts are easy to raid for his single longship as I am of him praising me to the sky because my two galleys are a formidable navy.

And even when just focusing on the flavour as you do here rather than the gameplay, you're focusing on a small subset that are easy to justify. What about Gitarja? She gains nothing from caring about people settling on large landmasses, let alone disliking ones settling on small islands. Indonesians didn't settle on islands because they really adore small bits of land, they did so because that's what they had access to - and prioritised settlement on the big ones. Gameplaywise Gitarja's going to want to avoid small islands anyway (even assuming AIs behave in accordance with their own agendas, which of course they don't), so she doesn't benefit by warning others away from them.
 
I think a better comparison would be civ4 vs. civ6. 5 definitely took a different route by making expansion so costly(while overpowering the government decision that favors tall over wide play), but 4 and 6 are, in my opinion, both better games, and both pretty much having the similar strategic caveat that more cities is always better, leading to a more apples-to-apples comparison between the two.
 
Varying in agendas just isn't enough variety in how the AI behaves compared with Civ IV/V personalty traits - the issue is with the agenda system itself. Agendas don't vary AI behaviour, only their attitudes towards other civs - and those attitude differences don't even consistency lead to rivalries or war, since the AI is pretty strongly stereotyped in the circumstances when it will declare war and - because it doesn't get the bonus units Civ V AIs did - it will routinely calculate that war against the player is unfavourable if the player has any kind of army. So you're pretty free to ignore the agendas of opposing civs without caring what they think about you.

In past Civ games there was much more variation in how civs behave than just what sorts of things would prompt them to declare war, and even that decision was handled with more nuance.

I agree that they don't declare war when they should, but that is not the same thing as the agenda system being bad. That is their evaluation of declaring war to be bad.


Harald is the most egregious example of the agenda system failing in action. Again, the AI doesn't build units - and particularly doesn't build naval units. I'm as tired of Harald telling me my entirely landlocked civ's nonexistent coasts are easy to raid for his single longship as I am of him praising me to the sky because my two galleys are a formidable navy.
This is, again, a problem with the AI in general, and not with the agenda system itself.

And even when just focusing on the flavour as you do here rather than the gameplay,
I literally just provided a gameplay justification for each one, not a flavor one. I explained why the flavor is sensible from a gameplay perspective.

you're focusing on a small subset that are easy to justify.
They were the examples the other poster provided of extremely egregious ones. I then pulled the other ones from memory, which of course will be ones that are easy to justify, as they are from memory.

What about Gitarja? She gains nothing from caring about people settling on large landmasses, let alone disliking ones settling on small islands.
Her bonuses are not strong enough to justify the behavior, but clearly gaining adjacency bonuses from water will cause her to want as much coastline as possible, hence small landmasses are excellent. The problem is that the adjacency bonuses themselves are too weak, not that the agenda does not tie into the gameplay.

Indonesians didn't settle on islands because they really adore small bits of land, they did so because that's what they had access to - and prioritised settlement on the big ones. Gameplaywise Gitarja's going to want to avoid small islands anyway (even assuming AIs behave in accordance with their own agendas, which of course they don't), so she doesn't benefit by warning others away from them.
At this point I think you don't want to play Civ, you want to play a game where the civilization abilities evolve as a natural consequence of your situation, rather than chosen at the start. The civ bonuses are designed to encourage you to play in a thematic way for strategic reasons, not for the same reasons that the real life civilization did. At that point, we would be playing a different game.

Due to her unique gameplay bonuses, Gitarja should want to grab small landmasses. I say should because the bonus is too weak to actually be worthwhile, but that is a problem with game balance, not with the agenda system.
 
I agree that they don't declare war when they should, but that is not the same thing as the agenda system being bad. That is their evaluation of declaring war to be bad.


This is, again, a problem with the AI in general, and not with the agenda system itself.

The agenda system doesn't relate to anything except whether AIs declare war. If the system becomes nonfunctional because the AI isn't effective, that is a problem with the system. AI and game systems are not as discrete as people want to imagine: Civ is not an independent game with mechanical players who happen not to be very good - that's how AI is often talked about, but not what it actually is. "AI" is actually a whole set of algorithms, each for a different system. Whether the system is good or bad is intrinsically linked to the AI's performance using it, and for the agenda system specifically it has no existence outside the AI's ability to use it - it's not a game mechanic the player can make use of.

Civ V had bad logic for war declarations as well, but that didn't stop its personality characteristics being either detectable or relevant.

I literally just provided a gameplay justification for each one, not a flavor one. I explained why the flavor is sensible from a gameplay perspective.

The AI doesn't play according to its own agendas - agendas are entirely a case of how relationship modifiers are applied to other civs. Even if it did, some of these make no sense in terms of how Civ games work. If you want to spam Wonders and fall behind, what you do not do is focus on taking other people's wonders since you need that production to build Wonders.

You may target one or two specific Wonders you need for a victory condition, but the AI doesn't have the resolution to recognise that it should hate you if you have Ruhr Valley and not care very much if you have the Temple of Artemis.

Kongo doesn't have any agency in whether anyone spreads religion to them so whining about it doesn't have any gameplay relevance.

Her bonuses are not strong enough to justify the behavior, but clearly gaining adjacency bonuses from water will cause her to want as much coastline as possible, hence small landmasses are excellent. The problem is that the adjacency bonuses themselves are too weak, not that the agenda does not tie into the gameplay.

At this point I think you don't want to play Civ, you want to play a game where the civilization abilities evolve as a natural consequence of your situation, rather than chosen at the start. The civ bonuses are designed to encourage you to play in a thematic way for strategic reasons, not for the same reasons that the real life civilization did. At that point, we would be playing a different game.

My point was that there's no logic either in flavour or in gameplay to Gitarja's obsession, not that the the gameplay should match the flavour. If you're playing on a TSL map Gitarja will be colonising small islands - if she has better options, she will be colonising those. She could get upset with people colonising coasts, but the size of the landmass isn't relevant - Indonesia's game bonuses work best on areas with a good mix of coastal and land tiles. That's not a case of Indonesia not being well-balanced to make use of one-tile islands - it's a case of Indonesia deliberately being designed not to be about one-tile islands. Indonesia wants the same coastal cities everyone else does, but gets a much bigger bonus from having them.

All of this is however secondary to my main point, which was:

"In past Civ games there was much more variation in how civs behave than just what sorts of things would prompt them to declare war, and even that decision was handled with more nuance."

You seem resistant to the idea that the AI civs ought to have personalities, and I'm not sure why. Even if the agenda system in Civ VI were well-implemented the AI would still be lacking in meaningful personality.
 
China and Korea would both benefit from a more military focused Alt leader. So, if Khan achieves that, then great. I otherwise can’t see any huge need for Mongolia to get an Alt leader.




I feel like Beyond Earth and other sci-fi style 4Xs would benefit massively from just being more hard sci-fi. That would impose some limits on technology, but also give games a lot more character.

Korea wouldn't get an alternative leader with Kublai Khan but I agree that they could use a new leader that was more realistic for that country. Lots of good choices. :)
 
Here's one thing I'll say for this approach in Civ VI: having become accustomed to playing tall in Civ V, it wasn't until Civ VI went too far in the other direction that I realised *just how boring* going tall is. There isn't a lot to do except shuffle units around as you have so little production space. I wouldn't be surprised if this is much of the reason so many people still strongly dislike Civ V, since it seems from the Tradition obsession that not many people were actually exploring how the game plays with more than four cities.

Having essentially no constraints on expansion was not a good move for Civ VI - there's a reason all prior Civ games had mechanisms to constrain it. In Civ VI it seems production is the only limiting factor. Loyalty does a good job of pacing expansion, but only if you're in a Dark Age or the nearest rivals are in a higher Golden Age while you're in a normal one. I like that idea of pacing expansion by Age, but I get the impression that many people play to get a permanent Golden Age which rather undermines the point of the loyalty system.

Civ 6 definitely isn't true ICS in any meaningful sense of the word. For both culture and science victory there is a number of cities after which it is simply not worth settling any more peacefully. That number is around 20-25, from my experience in game.

There is also the point that in a true ICS game you try to settle your cities as close as humanly possible in order to have as many cities as possible. While in Civ 6 the main point of city placement is to get the best district adjacency possible, and at least some source of housing. In Civ 6 you do not necessarilly settle your cities as close as possible (though it is often the case), rather you settle for mountain-range campuses, district triangles, etc. While with true ICS it is mostly the city itself and the city center buildings that made the strategies viable, not their tiles or their positioning or anything like that.

I think it's a very good move that Civ 6 has little penalties on settling. There is still a heavy penalty, which is settler cost. It increases dramatically after 15 settlers in my opinion, so much that it's often not worth it to hardbuild them. You want to get them with gold/faith and monumentality/theocracy bonus ideally. That alone I feel is enough of a penalty.

Realistically, most player probably settle somewhere between 4 and 10 cities in most of their games. For fast win times you want something like 15-25. I don't think that's too much necessarily. Now I don't want to micromanage 150 cities every turn, of course there is some point at which it comes pretty ridiculous, but imho Civ 6 has found kind of a sweet spot.

And we haven't "figured out" the game anyway. Just like in the late stages of Civ 5, people were figuring out that Piety and Liberty could actually also yield good finish times, maybe for Civ 6 we will also see strategies with 10-12 cities that rival those finish times of super wide empires. It's certainly a possibility, it just takes players to be creative.

2. Production balance. Everything simply takes TOO LONG to build.
9. Chopping. I like to build up my infrastructure and land, not destroy it. Yes, you could chop in Civ 5, but the meta in 6 is definitely balanced to chopping and harvesting everything asap, and I hate doing that. I'll do it if I'm rushing a wonder or putting a district there but apart from that I usually never chop or harvest resources.
10. and this is the biggest one... the civ 6 balance/meta seems to be heavily leaning towards spamming out cities (no matter how crappy they are) and killing and conquering as much as possible. I want to build! I'd rather play tall than wide, but that's very hard to justify in 6.

you might want to try playing Maori on a small map and quick speed, and you'd have at least 3 of those fixed :D

I definitely agree with your point regarding snowballing, most of the time I know I have the game won by t60 r 70 because there is just no way the AI can ever catch up. the problem here is not the player being too strong though, but the AI playing completely suboptimal. If the AI had higher priorities towards campus and lower towards encampments, and higher priority towards mines compared to farms, they'd already be much more competitive. Civ VI doesn't need a lot of changes to have massive impacts on its balance.

It's honestly kind of impressive just how bad the AI is in Civ VI at winning games. Or in general with decisions. It seems they always build the weakest districts/units/tile improvements/Wonders and doesn't research the right techs/civics. Almost like they're making the worst choices possible in most regards.

This would easily be fixed if they just released the source code, and changing the AI preference could genuinely fix this game, I think.
 
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Yep. Once the DLL is released, CIv VI will be an amazing game.

I dream of Fall from Heaven for Civ VI. :D
 
Yep. Once the DLL is released, CIv VI will be an amazing game.

I dream of Fall from Heaven for Civ VI. :D
At this time they do not plan to release the source code for Civ6, you can forget total conversions.
 
At this time they do not plan to release the source code for Civ6, you can forget total conversions.

At this time, yes. Hoping they will after a year.
 
1) You have different civs in different games, so I would say the replayability goes up, not down
2) The leader agenda is only one of the 3 agendas they randomly get, so I would say the replayability goes up, not down
3) I wouldn't classify any of the leader agendas as nonsensical, and I want there to be some conflict. Friendship bubble is annoyingly boring and passive after the third game of it. Out of the agendas you listed:
1) This has nothing to do with agendas
3) Having people lose their mind over stuff like "you don't build ships" when you are land locked and cannot build ships nor have any need for them anyway, is absolutely 100% nonsensical, yes. Targeting people who has undefended coastlines is very different from getting upset at how many ships you have. Just ridiculous.
 
Civ VI AI behavior/diplomacy is terrible, predictable and samey irrespective of Agendas, but Agendas are also mostly terrible, predictable and samey, and also those two system's don't even interact well. Civ V AI wasn't good, but at least it had some modicum of personality and could surprise you from time to time. That's really what made Civ V more of a game than VI, which is mostly just a simulation you play by yourself, against no one but time.
 
At this time, yes. Hoping they will after a year.
maybe, but the change of wording (previously it was "we can't answer the DLL question at this time", now it's "we do not plan to release it at this time") doesn't leave a lot of hopes, even if it's not a definitive "no"

But what would make them change the plan next year ?

AFAIK all modders involved in franky doesn't feel any need for it, and all modders that would potentially use it are not modding civ6 anymore (or have not even started to mod it), which does not leave a lot of people to put any pressure on them.

And I'm afraid people are tired of reading my obsessive posts on the subject.
 
Civ VI AI behavior/diplomacy is terrible, predictable and samey irrespective of Agendas, but Agendas are also mostly terrible, predictable and samey, and also those two system's don't even interact well. Civ V AI wasn't good, but at least it had some modicum of personality and could surprise you from time to time. That's really what made Civ V more of a game than VI, which is mostly just a simulation you play by yourself, against no one but time.

Lol. Civilization 5 was the swimlane Civ. Stay in your lane or get slapped down hard. The very definition of playing with yourself.

Some agendas could use some tweaking but on the whole, much more interesting than the numbing sameness of Civilization 5.

maybe, but the change of wording (previously it was "we can't answer the DLL question at this time", now it's "we do not plan to release it at this time") doesn't leave a lot of hopes, even if it's not a definitive "no"

But what would make them change the plan next year ?

AFAIK all modders involved in franky doesn't feel any need for it, and all modders that would potentially use it are not modding civ6 anymore (or have not even started to mod it), which does not leave a lot of people to put any pressure on them.

And I'm afraid people are tired of reading my obsessive posts on the subject.

When the third "expansion" is released, then they can release the DLL.

Btw, don't be afraid. Firaxis needs to release the DLL and constant reminders isn't a bad thing. I want to play great mods as much as the modders want to make them. :)
 
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