Competing VC's
- Thread starter shyuhe
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shyuhe
Deity
I've clarified the diplo rules. I think this should work. Or at least work well enough for our purposes. I'll start the ball rolling tonight with SIP and 20 turns.
Dhoomstriker
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Well, we could set a relatively arbitrary-sounding rule around Slavery that may sound a bit "unnatural" compared to a real game, but will be 10 million times better (for any victory condition) than not using it at all.
For example:
Each player is allowed to whip a maximum of 1 build item per City per turnset, up to a maximum of, say, 6 whipped Cities in a turnset.
That way, if we do end up with a 30-City empire, it can't be whipped to the ground just to mess with each others' Victory Conditions.
Similarly, we can't multi-whip in the same City very frequently, so if we want to whip a build item in a City on our turnset, we should each plan wisely as to what that build item should be.
Cross-posted with the next page (didn't see the next page) but I'd still like my idea to be considered (goes to read the updated message #1 now).
For example:
Each player is allowed to whip a maximum of 1 build item per City per turnset, up to a maximum of, say, 6 whipped Cities in a turnset.
That way, if we do end up with a 30-City empire, it can't be whipped to the ground just to mess with each others' Victory Conditions.
Similarly, we can't multi-whip in the same City very frequently, so if we want to whip a build item in a City on our turnset, we should each plan wisely as to what that build item should be.
Cross-posted with the next page (didn't see the next page) but I'd still like my idea to be considered (goes to read the updated message #1 now).
Dhoomstriker
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If a resolution is Defied but it would not have passed had our votes been used on the "No" side, will we still get the Villain Status?
vranasm
Deity
lurker
there should be rule about not deleting units too imo...
the whip/draft is imo delicate... I think everyone here knows how to make big ren. army quickly and that doesn't mean you want to mess someone else gameplan...it just means you want to win your war... it's not bad will, it just you playing for your win... if you deny such player whip he can't compete...
@dhoom
if the vote wouldn't pass there is no villain status and unhappy faces
there should be rule about not deleting units too imo...
the whip/draft is imo delicate... I think everyone here knows how to make big ren. army quickly and that doesn't mean you want to mess someone else gameplan...it just means you want to win your war... it's not bad will, it just you playing for your win... if you deny such player whip he can't compete...
@dhoom
if the vote wouldn't pass there is no villain status and unhappy faces
shyuhe
Deity
No. You only get villain status for defying a resolution that would have otherwise passed.
I'd rather not lay strict rules on slavery/nationhood. I think we all know the spirit of the "rule" and I don't want to get into the nitty gritty.
shyuhe
Deity
vranasm
Deity
Already covered in rule (2)
my bad... sorry I thought I read it properly but didn't...
back to lurking!
Dhoomstriker
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Okay, so Nationhood will now be a valid Civic, as long as it is used within reason?
What does "within reason" mean, though? If I have a 10-turn turnset, am I allowed to draft 30 units or would doing so be considered to be too excessive?
What does "within reason" mean, though? If I have a 10-turn turnset, am I allowed to draft 30 units or would doing so be considered to be too excessive?
shyuhe
Deity
Within reason means without crippling the empire for the next player. If we have a 30 city empire, then I see no problem drafting 30 units in 10 turns. With a 6 city empire, I don't think you can realistically draft more than 10-15 units in 10 turns (even using a globe city that produces a draftee/turn) without crippling your empire. Yeah, it's pretty subjective. The two other options I see are to ban slavery/nationhood outright, or to limit it to 1 whip and 1 draft per city per turn set with an unlimited whip/draft exception in a globe city.
Dhoomstriker
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This approach sounds to be reasonably fair while providing some sort of guideline to avoid disputes/arguments down the road for us having differing subjective definitions.
Just to clarify on the wording, if we have 6 Cities and no Globe Theatre, could I whip all 6 times from the same City or is it really 1 whip max in each City in a given turnset? To be fair to City-specific Victory Conditions (I think that's only Cutural), it should probably be 1 whip and 1 draft max in each City per turnset, right?
Thanks for making it a lot more complicated 
Well of course "abusing whip/draft" is subjective but imo we all should see what it means and play accordingly. If someone recieves a slaughthered empire we all see that and
the player in question
Uhmm shyuhe, what about GPs? "Born my set, used my set for my causes"? I already see us destroying eachother: Diplo player: "Aw no a GA.. what to do.. settle in tundra city or bulb DR??"
I kinda envy Cam who probably enjoys this most as probably all posts have some more meaning to him
Well of course "abusing whip/draft" is subjective but imo we all should see what it means and play accordingly. If someone recieves a slaughthered empire we all see that and
the player in question Uhmm shyuhe, what about GPs? "Born my set, used my set for my causes"? I already see us destroying eachother: Diplo player: "Aw no a GA.. what to do.. settle in tundra city or bulb DR??"
I kinda envy Cam who probably enjoys this most as probably all posts have some more meaning to him
Dhoomstriker
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I'm good at that!Thanks for making it a lot more complicated
Actually, shyuhe really could start, since Bronze Working and Nationhood aren't going to be available in the first turnset, or are they (maybe they will be if he is that good!)?Okay, public humiliation for perceived Whipping/Drafting abuse is good enough as a rule for me. Can we get started now?Well of course "abusing whip/draft" is subjective but imo we all should see what it means and play accordingly. If someone recieves a slaughthered empire we all see that and
shyuhe
Deity
GPs are whatever you want to do with them. I have a feeling we won't be triggering a 3 person GA this game I kind of envy the person who gets the second GP (since presumably we will all use a GS to make an academy).
I kind of envy the person who gets the second GP (since presumably we will all use a GS to make an academy).
Dhoomstriker
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Academy??? Who wants that? Lightbulb Math! Oracle Construction! Catapult-rush 2 AI capitals. Instant Victory (of any Victory Condition)--we'd then just have to fight over which Victory Condition gets won first.
lurker's comment:
Well, I would, if only I could understand the rules!
(I don't really mean to be flippant, just that I've far too often found myself in a similar position having to debate and qualify variant rules).
Anyway, it's good that you're all hammering this out now. Looking forward to seeing it all unfold.
[Edit] Habitus has been added to the roster, and has been allocated a victory condition! Welcome!
[Edit]
I kinda envy Cam who probably enjoys this most as probably all posts have some more meaning to him
Well, I would, if only I could understand the rules!
(I don't really mean to be flippant
, just that I've far too often found myself in a similar position having to debate and qualify variant rules).Anyway, it's good that you're all hammering this out now. Looking forward to seeing it all unfold.
[Edit] Habitus has been added to the roster, and has been allocated a victory condition! Welcome!
[Edit]shyuhe
Deity
Let's get this game on!
Settled in place as we discussed:
The hut popped a scout (huts and events are on for this game). I sent him south and the warrior north. We met a couple of yahoos:
We met Charlie too but I lost my screenie for that.
Willem was pretty lax about his scouting:
And we got some gold from that hut.
This is what our neighborhood looks like:
I'm not sure that I'm seeing really good second city sites right now
The best one I see is the sheep/ivory to the west but that's a horrible long-term city.
Tech order was agri--BW (pending).
Rolo is up next with mysty on deck! Everyone gets 15 turns per set going forward.
@ Habitus - you can still join if you want. You can get your VC from Cam. Just let us know if you decide to join (and we will no longer have a mystery VC in that case).
Settled in place as we discussed:
The hut popped a scout (huts and events are on for this game). I sent him south and the warrior north. We met a couple of yahoos:
Spoiler :
We met Charlie too but I lost my screenie for that.
Willem was pretty lax about his scouting:
And we got some gold from that hut.
This is what our neighborhood looks like:
I'm not sure that I'm seeing really good second city sites right now
The best one I see is the sheep/ivory to the west but that's a horrible long-term city.Tech order was agri--BW (pending).
Rolo is up next with mysty on deck! Everyone gets 15 turns per set going forward.
@ Habitus - you can still join if you want. You can get your VC from Cam. Just let us know if you decide to join (and we will no longer have a mystery VC in that case).
Dhoomstriker
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Simply by going off of shyuhe's screenshot, the land doesn't look too bad. It's all about how you make use of it.
For example, here is a suggested dot mapping:
I would suggest that we settle the western Teal City first, with the goal of getting early Pottery to start building and working Flood Plains Cottages.
Regardless of your chosen Victory Condition, I think that getting our economy in order is a priority on Immortal.
Which of the eastern Cities gets settled next would depend upon whether we need a Hammer-based City next or if we want to go for an earlier Great Scientist. Either City would require a Monument or a Library, so getting Pottery -> Writing might not be a bad goal. It looks like we will already have Bronze Working shortly, for Chopping out said Culture-producing buildings.
We're going to want Fishing in there somewhere, too, which gives a boost to research on Pottery but won't be needed until we have build a Monument or a Library in whichever City we choose to be our third City, so that tech could probably wait until later, assuming that you're okay to go with my suggested dot-mapping. Actually, even if you don't like my dot-mapping, none of the visible Fish are Magical Fish (what kind of a junky map-generating algorithm is this one! I feel spoiled by SGOTM 13 now), so we wouldn't be able to use early Fishing for much beyond a Work Boat explorer anyway (and which would get blocked--at least in the west--before learning Writing anyway).
We will want to fit Hunting in there somewhere for the Ivory, but again, since we'll need our borders to expand over it first, I would still suggest a Pottery beeline before deciding on whether to go for Hunting before or after Writing.
Animal Husbandry should probably come before Writing, but I'm not sure if it should come before or after Hunting. If the plan is to research Hunting and Animal Husbandry back-to-back and if we have a Monument in our Teal City by then, then I guess that Hunting -> Animal Husbandry could work.
I still think that going for Pottery before Animal Husbandry will be good, since we can build multiple Cottages but only have 1 Sheep Resource. Of course, it will be just my luck to have 5 Horse Resources appear, but other than for such an unlikely possibility, I think that early Pottery is a solid approach.
For example, here is a suggested dot mapping:
I would suggest that we settle the western Teal City first, with the goal of getting early Pottery to start building and working Flood Plains Cottages.
Regardless of your chosen Victory Condition, I think that getting our economy in order is a priority on Immortal.
Which of the eastern Cities gets settled next would depend upon whether we need a Hammer-based City next or if we want to go for an earlier Great Scientist. Either City would require a Monument or a Library, so getting Pottery -> Writing might not be a bad goal. It looks like we will already have Bronze Working shortly, for Chopping out said Culture-producing buildings.
We're going to want Fishing in there somewhere, too, which gives a boost to research on Pottery but won't be needed until we have build a Monument or a Library in whichever City we choose to be our third City, so that tech could probably wait until later, assuming that you're okay to go with my suggested dot-mapping. Actually, even if you don't like my dot-mapping, none of the visible Fish are Magical Fish (what kind of a junky map-generating algorithm is this one! I feel spoiled by SGOTM 13 now), so we wouldn't be able to use early Fishing for much beyond a Work Boat explorer anyway (and which would get blocked--at least in the west--before learning Writing anyway).
We will want to fit Hunting in there somewhere for the Ivory, but again, since we'll need our borders to expand over it first, I would still suggest a Pottery beeline before deciding on whether to go for Hunting before or after Writing.
Animal Husbandry should probably come before Writing, but I'm not sure if it should come before or after Hunting. If the plan is to research Hunting and Animal Husbandry back-to-back and if we have a Monument in our Teal City by then, then I guess that Hunting -> Animal Husbandry could work.
I still think that going for Pottery before Animal Husbandry will be good, since we can build multiple Cottages but only have 1 Sheep Resource. Of course, it will be just my luck to have 5 Horse Resources appear, but other than for such an unlikely possibility, I think that early Pottery is a solid approach.
shyuhe
Deity
I thought about opening agri--wheel--pottery but figured BW would be the safer bet. I'd feel comfortable spawn busting the north with a warrior and fielding two warriors in the jungle/forest to the south to stop barbs. So I don't think we need to run to AH even if we don't have copper.
Dhoomstriker
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That idea works fine for me. I guess that Habitus, if he/she wishes to join, can just be tacked-on to the end of the playing order for the first turnset, then will able to get any order possible in future turnsets, thanks to the randomness in which we will play from then on.
Have you sent him a private message? If not, it might be a good idea for you to do so, just to make sure that he knows we have started and are waiting on him.
As for the north, yeah, it has a nice Tundra Forest square that can host a Warrior that will be able to spawn-bust a good portion of the northern land for us.
I would imagine that a Warrior in the west could also sit on a Forest, and possibly another one could sit in a Forest to the SE of our capital close to where the Red City location was marked on my dot map attempt.
The other thing that I like about settling the Teal City location first is that we would only need 1-square-worth of a Road (on the Flood Plains square that is W + W of our capital) in order to connect to our capital with a Trade Route, using the River for the rest of the connection.
