shyuhe
Deity
Nice try Dhoom. I was UN diplo, and mysty was conquest. I didn't expect Habitus to be AP 
Not that I could have stopped him anyways though...
Not that I could have stopped him anyways though...
Competing VC's
- Thread starter shyuhe
- Start date
vranasm
Deity
lurker:
wow what a great steal... was really expecting Dhoom to be AP.
congratz habitus, the job was well done.
great read.
wow what a great steal... was really expecting Dhoom to be AP.
congratz habitus, the job was well done.
great read.
shyuhe
Deity
So the open question is, are people interested in giving this "game" another go with a new set of VC's? We can tinker with the tech trading rules if people think that would give the other VC's a better chance of winning.
r_rolo1
King of myself
To be honest, I'm ok with playing the game but I'm not seeing how to make culture competitive in this setting ...
Dhoomstriker
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How do the in-game options of No Tech Trading and No Tech Brokering work?
Do they affect AIs and players alike?
Can you still always trade Gold or is there a way to shut off the ability to trade lump sums of Gold?
An alternative approach is to simply allow tech trading. One reason for disallowing it was to avoid Fair and Forthright Trading bonuses, but you could still get those with Resource gifts, just not as quickly. I'm not sure that Diplo or AP would actually become any easier... sure, you can bribe AIs with gifts, but other players could equally "Trade with a Worst Enemy," thus cancelling out the +4 Fair and Forthright Trading bonus with a -4 You Traded with our Worst Enemy penalty. With tech trading on, though, I'd say push the game up to Deity level.
Did we have any other reasons for avoiding tech trading besides the +4 Fair and Forthright trading boost? Certainly it makes a Space game extremely difficult. I suppose that there is always the "bribe one AI into war against another strategically" option, but how often does that option come up on Deity level? Not enough for it to be game-breaking.
It probably wouldn't hurt to make it a Continents game... that way, an early Conquest can't clean house and the team has a relatively common goal of at least making it to Astronomy. It was fun having somewhat common goals at the start and if we prolonged that period for a bit, I think that it would make for a better game at Deity level... it's hard to start sabotaging each other from the second turnset onwards if we're playing on Deity.
The game could potentially be played as the French, so that the Salon Unique Building (free Artist Specialist with an Observatory) will make it a bit easier for the Cultural Victory player to spawn Great Artists, which would go hand-in-hand with Astronomy (most other players would build this Building on behalf of the Cultural Victory player).
That said, I think that having a Spiritual Leader is a key part of the game, to avoid Civic swaps getting in the way of each competing player.
If we were to play with Unrestricted Leaders, then we could pick the French and a Spiritual Leader. Another alternative would be the Chinese, since their Unique Building adds a good bonus to Culture and their Unique Unit would be fun to help in conquesting the original continent. The Ethiopians, while they have a Culture-enhancing Unique Building, would not be a good choice, since their Unique Building's unique power obsoletes with Astronomy. Basically, I think that we can all admit that a Cultural Victory is probably the hardest to win with, so it doesn't hurt to play with a Civ that slightly favours a Cultural Victory player.
Do they affect AIs and players alike?
Can you still always trade Gold or is there a way to shut off the ability to trade lump sums of Gold?
An alternative approach is to simply allow tech trading. One reason for disallowing it was to avoid Fair and Forthright Trading bonuses, but you could still get those with Resource gifts, just not as quickly. I'm not sure that Diplo or AP would actually become any easier... sure, you can bribe AIs with gifts, but other players could equally "Trade with a Worst Enemy," thus cancelling out the +4 Fair and Forthright Trading bonus with a -4 You Traded with our Worst Enemy penalty. With tech trading on, though, I'd say push the game up to Deity level.
Did we have any other reasons for avoiding tech trading besides the +4 Fair and Forthright trading boost? Certainly it makes a Space game extremely difficult. I suppose that there is always the "bribe one AI into war against another strategically" option, but how often does that option come up on Deity level? Not enough for it to be game-breaking.
It probably wouldn't hurt to make it a Continents game... that way, an early Conquest can't clean house and the team has a relatively common goal of at least making it to Astronomy. It was fun having somewhat common goals at the start and if we prolonged that period for a bit, I think that it would make for a better game at Deity level... it's hard to start sabotaging each other from the second turnset onwards if we're playing on Deity.
The game could potentially be played as the French, so that the Salon Unique Building (free Artist Specialist with an Observatory) will make it a bit easier for the Cultural Victory player to spawn Great Artists, which would go hand-in-hand with Astronomy (most other players would build this Building on behalf of the Cultural Victory player).
That said, I think that having a Spiritual Leader is a key part of the game, to avoid Civic swaps getting in the way of each competing player.
If we were to play with Unrestricted Leaders, then we could pick the French and a Spiritual Leader. Another alternative would be the Chinese, since their Unique Building adds a good bonus to Culture and their Unique Unit would be fun to help in conquesting the original continent. The Ethiopians, while they have a Culture-enhancing Unique Building, would not be a good choice, since their Unique Building's unique power obsoletes with Astronomy. Basically, I think that we can all admit that a Cultural Victory is probably the hardest to win with, so it doesn't hurt to play with a Civ that slightly favours a Cultural Victory player.
shyuhe
Deity
Deity with our game settings may be challenging, but I'd be willing to give it a try. I think immortal will be better though, at it allows for more sub-optimal strategies.
So from a game design perspective, I think we need to make AP harder and culture easier, to balance out the VC's. Continents will definitely help in that regard, since it will make the game last longer. Maybe we can add a rule that the first GM we generate must be saved for Sid's Sushi and we must found Sushi in the capital as soon as we get the requisite tech? This will still hide the identity of the culture player but give a nice boost on the culture output. It still won't be an easy VC though.
I'm ok with allowing tech trading. The original goal was to prevent the +4 fair trade bonus but as we saw from our game, that wasn't a big factor.
No tech trading = no one can trade techs. No tech brokering = you can't trade a tech you did not research to anyone else (you can "broker" stolen techs though).
So from a game design perspective, I think we need to make AP harder and culture easier, to balance out the VC's. Continents will definitely help in that regard, since it will make the game last longer. Maybe we can add a rule that the first GM we generate must be saved for Sid's Sushi and we must found Sushi in the capital as soon as we get the requisite tech? This will still hide the identity of the culture player but give a nice boost on the culture output. It still won't be an easy VC though.
I'm ok with allowing tech trading. The original goal was to prevent the +4 fair trade bonus but as we saw from our game, that wasn't a big factor.
No tech trading = no one can trade techs. No tech brokering = you can't trade a tech you did not research to anyone else (you can "broker" stolen techs though).
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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I'm okay with Immortal but I was just afraid that people would complain that winning would be too easy. Personally, I agree that Immortal is better because you don't have to play as gamey as you might be forced to do on Deity.
Having sub-optimal strategies IS what this Succssion Game is all about, since any optimal strategy will not be fully-followed by all players. Playing Deity might cut into our ability to be playing with competiting strategies effectively.
Sid's Sushi is pretty map-dependent. As long as there are a decent number of Seafood Resources on the map, it could work to put a rule in where we must save a Great Merchant, but the map that we just played had only around half a dozen that I remember seeing on the entire map. Still, I think I would prefer not to have such a rule in place. Most players would be okay with founding Sid's Sushi, as it really should help every Victory Condition (more population for votes, more population to work Mines and Workshops, more population for hiring Specialists, etc).
There would be enough players that want to found Sid's Sushi that I don't think we would need to craft a rule around it... if someone stole your Great Merchant for another purpose, then you can always build Wallstreet and try to generate a new one.
Since no tech trading prevents the AIs from trading, I think that we should just lift the rules on tech + gold trading and fully allow them.
I do think that having some AIs on at least one separate continent is the way to go. I've had bad luck with the Continents map script though... if there a good map script for making Astronomy-only-reachable Continents?
EDIT: Pretty much all of the other rules I would keep, though. Not losing a City was an important one, as was not being allowed to disband or gift units, etc.
Having sub-optimal strategies IS what this Succssion Game is all about, since any optimal strategy will not be fully-followed by all players. Playing Deity might cut into our ability to be playing with competiting strategies effectively.
Sid's Sushi is pretty map-dependent. As long as there are a decent number of Seafood Resources on the map, it could work to put a rule in where we must save a Great Merchant, but the map that we just played had only around half a dozen that I remember seeing on the entire map. Still, I think I would prefer not to have such a rule in place. Most players would be okay with founding Sid's Sushi, as it really should help every Victory Condition (more population for votes, more population to work Mines and Workshops, more population for hiring Specialists, etc).
There would be enough players that want to found Sid's Sushi that I don't think we would need to craft a rule around it... if someone stole your Great Merchant for another purpose, then you can always build Wallstreet and try to generate a new one.
Since no tech trading prevents the AIs from trading, I think that we should just lift the rules on tech + gold trading and fully allow them.
I do think that having some AIs on at least one separate continent is the way to go. I've had bad luck with the Continents map script though... if there a good map script for making Astronomy-only-reachable Continents?
EDIT: Pretty much all of the other rules I would keep, though. Not losing a City was an important one, as was not being allowed to disband or gift units, etc.
shyuhe
Deity
Hemispheres and/or big & small. B&S comes with lots of islands (sushi resources) so it might be easier for the culture player.
Dhoomstriker
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Well, I think that there would be enough players interested if you wanted to roll another map based on one of those map types and start another game.
A Spiritual Leader is the minimum criteria; it's your call if you want to turn on Unrestricted Leaders (but not Random Personalities, those are too annoying to have when players are competing and may feed misleading information to each other) and go for a Civ like France or China or whether you just want to pick an all-around-decent Leader with whatever Civ they normally get.
Here are the Spiritual Leaders:
Asoka with Organized
Brennus with Charismatic
Gandhi with Philosophical
Hatshepsut with Creative
Isabella with Expansive
Justinian with Imperialistic
Mansa Musa with Financial
Montezuma with Aggressive
Ramesses II with Industrious
Saladin with Protective
I would be willing to play again, but if there are enough other players that want to play, I can also step aside to let someone else join.
A Spiritual Leader is the minimum criteria; it's your call if you want to turn on Unrestricted Leaders (but not Random Personalities, those are too annoying to have when players are competing and may feed misleading information to each other) and go for a Civ like France or China or whether you just want to pick an all-around-decent Leader with whatever Civ they normally get.
Here are the Spiritual Leaders:
Asoka with Organized
Brennus with Charismatic
Gandhi with Philosophical
Hatshepsut with Creative
Isabella with Expansive
Justinian with Imperialistic
Mansa Musa with Financial
Montezuma with Aggressive
Ramesses II with Industrious
Saladin with Protective
I would be willing to play again, but if there are enough other players that want to play, I can also step aside to let someone else join.
I'm up for playing again, Hemisphere with 3 Continents, Massive Continents + Islands (rather than the standard normal/random + small islands) usually gives you astro only continents with medium sealevels. A game as Hatty of China would be good, creative helps with border culture pressure + cheap UB for the culture player so they have more chance to get them built. I'm sure you all would like a chance to steal the game from me this time 
shyuhe
Deity
Maybe we should saddle you with the culture VC and see what you say then I'll roll up a new start and open a thread.
Congrats Habitus. 
Though it doesn't entirely surprise that AP wins here.
I'd love to play this if there's room in the next one. Sounds like everyone's back in, though?
Though it doesn't entirely surprise that AP wins here. I'd love to play this if there's room in the next one. Sounds like everyone's back in, though?
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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We could open up a Domination Victory condition or I could step down, as I really am quite over-committed in life right now anyway.
Would adding Domination weight the game too heavily toward warring, to the potential further detriment of a Cultural Victory?
Would adding Domination weight the game too heavily toward warring, to the potential further detriment of a Cultural Victory?
Hi guys 
Congratulations to habitus! Nice work finishing it off
I must say especially late in the game it's a little luck-dependant to get just the set you need for your VC, a couple of turns earlier or later can really screw you.
As to VCs, I was pretty relieved I didn't get culture (hi rolo
), but yes I had conquest (kinda my favourite of the lot as you probably knew 
).
It was pretty interesting, thanks for the game shyuhe Unfortounately it took a lot of time (especially the discussions with dhoom ) and since my studies recommenced I do no longer really have time for time-consuming SGs, at least not right now. But without me you can check off culture and you're back to a fitting number of VCs/players
Congratulations to habitus! Nice work finishing it off
I must say especially late in the game it's a little luck-dependant to get just the set you need for your VC, a couple of turns earlier or later can really screw you.
As to VCs, I was pretty relieved I didn't get culture (hi rolo
), but yes I had conquest (kinda my favourite of the lot as you probably knew ).It was pretty interesting, thanks for the game shyuhe
Unfortounately it took a lot of time (especially the discussions with dhoom ) and since my studies recommenced I do no longer really have time for time-consuming SGs, at least not right now. But without me you can check off culture and you're back to a fitting number of VCs/players
Dhoomstriker
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I had a great time, a big part of which was thanks to you, mystyfly!!!It was pretty interesting, thanks for the game shyuhe
Thanks for the game!
