Concern: Limited Quantity Units

[Solanus]

Not sure if this has been cleared up yet on a very recent patch (still a couple behind while I slowly finish a game), but I have an issue with the production availability of units that can be upgraded into a limited quantity late-game unit.

Most of the time, when a limited quantity unit (LQU) is unlocked through the tech tree (or other means), any unit (with essentially unlimited producability) that could upgrade into the LQU drops off the production options list in favor of the LQU. This stays even if I've produced all of the LQUs and would like to go back to producing the lower tier units. I've definitely noticed this with Phalanxes and War Chariots.

It might also be handy to be able to produce otherwise obsolete units, if I desperately need a defender or one last counter-attacker, or if I'm flush with gold and can afford to upgrade my way to higher-tier units. This could either be an city screen option button, or a checkbox on a separate options page.

Again, I'm not a modder, so I throw myself on the mercies of the modders out there.

 

[ExMachina]

This could easily be fixed by making the non-LQU units never obsolete. Just a simple change in unitinfos.xml for each unit in question. Honestly, I'm surprised this still happens.

 

[WarKirby]

This is something that's easy to fix, but has to be done on a case by case basis.

Would be good if you could name specific cases. Exactly WHAT unit you're being stopped from building, so that can be made to never obsolete. Compile a list if possible.

 

[MaxAstro]

I wonder if this is actually a bug; when the limit has been reached for a National Unit, the previous tier unit is supposed to unlock for building again. That is the functionality I'm familiar with, at least.

That said, being forced to build the national units is occasionally unhelpful, especially if you have a city dedicated to producing military units and you want to build the national units there but keep building weaker units elsewhere. Ran into this problem as the Dural, actually; thanks to their statues, any unit I build in my main military city was considerably stronger, so I wanted all my nationals built there.

In any case, the "easy" but time-consuming fix is to make all tech3 units never obsolete. If you wanted, you could remove the obsoleting mechanic entirely by going into unitinfos.xml and doing a global search and replace along the lines of replacing "<bNeverObsolete>0" with "<bNeverObsolete>1". Er... don't take my word for it, though, because I might have the name of the tag wrong.

 

[Iceciro]

To be honest, I think most units should Never Obsolete for most civs.

What if I have a huge stockpile of gold, but very few incoming hammers, and war is on the horizon, or I was nonsense-wardecced by a should've been an ally?

If I can have all of my cities produce, say, warriors, then spend the exorbitant amounts needed to upgrade them, I may survive.

 

[MaxAstro]

I believe Kael has stated that having older units obsolete is a balance point for exactly that reason; late game Warriors start to become "too good" for their opportunity cost.

However, it also becomes a bit of a micromanagement thing (make sure to build a barracks but NOT a Fletcher so Warriors don't obsolete...) and occasionally causes units that serve a unique purpose to become unbuildable (Soldiers of Kilmorph). I certainly wouldn't mind seeing all units never obsolete, except perhaps for the increase in clutter in the build screen.

 

[WarKirby]

I believe Kael has stated that having older units obsolete is a balance point for exactly that reason; late game Warriors start to become "too good" for their opportunity cost.

This is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Lategame, a warrior is nothing more than meat against a champion. It takes a ton of defensive bonuses for them to have a hope of reaching 50% odds on the defense.

And champions aren't even late, they're more like mid. If you compare them against paladins, phalanxes, etc. A warrior is just another 99.9% meatshield for free xp.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think by saying they are too good, the means it rarely takes more than a single turn to build them, and you'll often have the gold to upgrade them to champions or higher immediately anyway.

 

[Valkrionn]

Exactly. In the case of warriors, I agree with him. I'd be fine with tier 2 on up being neverobsolete, however.

 

[WarKirby]

If you often have the gold to upgrade them, wouldn't you also often have the gold to just outright buy the higher tier unit?

If there's a significant discrepancy in those two costs, perhaps it's a balance issue that needs looking into.

I've always found it a bit strange that upgrades require only gold, and not, for instance, time. Maybe they should be delayed somewhat, for an amount of time dependant on how many tiers the unit is ascending. say 1 turn for 1-2. 2 for 2-3, and 3 for 3-4. Or 6 turns to upgrade a warrior into a tier 4 unit.

Or just one cost reduced/increased to match the other.

 

[xienwolf]

Someone had made a modcomp once where instead of upgrading units you could sacrifice them to hurry the production of other units in their upgrade tree. The more experienced the unit was, the more hammers it rushed your new unit with. Wouldn't work so well for FfH where promotions are so important sadly.