Conquests Beta Patch Now Available

To my opinion there's something wrong with the whole
corruption calculation.In my Maya game I switched in the
modern age from Monarchy to Democracy,but it looked
like I had still the same amount of corruption of shields
and more commerce was wasted (but that's obviously
because of the extra commerce).At that time I had about
40 cities and I didn't expand anymore.The benefit of a
Democracy should be clear visible,like it was in the old
civ games.
After finishing the mentioned game I abandoned the FP
city to see the effect of it.Well I'm disappointed.My total
income went down by 100 gold/turn,but the abandoned city
generated 53 gold/turn.A lost of 47 gold/turn in the modern
age.That's neglectable.Most metropolises went down 1 shield and 1 or 2 commerce.
I like the new FP idea,but it has be clear how to use it.
 
I guess there is THREE problems in corruption from PTW to conquest and it seems people are mixing them all up. The three problems are

1) RCP Exploit
2) FP Rank Exploit
3) AI unable to use FP effectively, giving human a SUPER advantage. This is related to palace jump in some ways.

The fix for (1) Seems okay now.

The fix for (2) is what messes up things I think, but it could have been very easily solved by creating two rank list - one for Palace and one for FP. And I think this was what all of us expected when they said it is fixed in conquest. At least, I think that would be the most obvious fix. Apparently, they choose a complex solution and mess up everything twice.

(3), as many said is an AI deficiency, which I agree. However, we have to acknowledge that this does give human too much of an advantage especially for those who knows how to do a palace jump effectively. The ideal solution would, of course to improve the AI, which may or may not be feasible. The current version of code "accidently" fixed this issue, which some players actually likes it. Unfortunately, it also changes the fundamental game play which, as can be seen, upsets many people. At this moment, I do not know what would be the best solution. But if I am the developers, I would choose my solution in this priority.
(A) Improve AI to handle FP better leaving the corruption model untouched except for the fix for (1) and (2).
(B) Think of an idea which do not change the fundamental design and yet close the gap between AI and human usage of FP (This may not be possible)
(C) If above two are not possible, just fix (1) and (2) for the next release. Point (3) was never expected by anyone anyway. The improvement for point (3) can come later when given more time to ponder and perhaps as other suggested, open the floor to the community, before deciding what to do.
 
this does give human too much of an advantage especially for those who knows how to do a palace jump effectively.
VERY easy fix: disable the Palace Jump exploit.

1) If player disbands capital, gov't descends into chaos for 8-10 turns, and
2) If player disbands capital, palace moves to next nearest city or, if it exists, replaces the FP in the city where it exists.

Viola! Problem solved. That way, those of us who don;t cheat when we play the game aren't penalized at all.
 
Originally posted by Yumbo
VERY easy fix: disable the Palace Jump exploit.

1) If player disbands capital, gov't descends into chaos for 8-10 turns, and
2) If player disbands capital, palace moves to next nearest city or, if it exists, replaces the FP in the city where it exists.

Viola! Problem solved. That way, those of us who don;t cheat when we play the game aren't penalized at all.

I couldn't agree more! I have always thought the Free Palace Jump was an exploit, in addition to making NO sense. I have never used it except to test it out, until this most recent GOTM, where I felt the map was designed with that in mind. Even then, it just seems so counter-intuitive and just felt wrong. (Not to mention lack of historical precedent - Hey everyone, let's burn down our capital, and our cousins in the south will make an even better one for us!!). Losing the capital in any way I feel should trigger a period of anarchy, I had already suggested that once in another thread. Now if you decide to move the palace with a leader, or building it, that at least takes effort and trade-offs, but should still result in some kind of upheaval. Moving the capital of your civilization should not be taken lightly, most governments would collapse over it.

That said, the Rank Corruption exploit still needs to be fixed, there just needs to be two city rank lists, as many people assumed there was all along until the exploit was discovered.
 
That [Yumbo's suggestion] would help counter the Palace Jump exploit, yes. But you could still build the FP on Easter Island with a Leader. And fixing the bug cannot possibly hurt you anyway, if you don't use the exploit.

But you needn't use that to draw huge benefits from this AI deficiency; you need only build your FP at a decent distance from the Palace.
 
Of course that would also disable Palace prebuilds, which is another Strategy/[exploit] that the AI never uses. But I don't want to open that can of worms.
 
Someone indicated in another post that palace prebuilds were eliminated with C3C.

I'm not sure if this is true, but if so, I say good.
 
Well, I might be vilified by some for this, but I cannot agree with some of the thoughts thrown out here.

Some have suggested that the FP, as used by many to build a 2nd core of productive cities, is a player "cheat" and therefore the FP should be weakened, or changed to not allow this since it "gives the human player a signifgicant advantage" because the "ai cannot effectively plan the location of the FP or do a palace jump".

And the fact that players of all levels have used this tactic for 2+ years is irrivelant, its a "player cheat". Now some even call it an exploit. AHHIIIEEE!

(Those statements in quotes are not meant to be direct quotes or indictments of any poster, they're just summations of what I perceive some players feel. Note the plural.)

Well, if you think its unfair to the ai, DON'T USE THE "TRICK".

BUT don't insist that the programmers take away the use of a tool utilized by many for many years. IT does change the way MANY play and ENJOY the game. For them, this would probably be a NEGATIVE change.

Personally I never liked or used the palace jump in any form. I never used the Massive Pop Rush strat either. The both seemed un-natural. Building an adminstrative center to reduce corruption and govern an area away from the homeland does not. Since we cannot build "provincial capitol" (at a VERY HIGH COST), in any city we choose, or a limited number overall of them, we build the FP.

I DO like having two cores of effective city's because like many players, I LIKE to create big empires. Thats part of the pull that the Civ game series has for me and MANY of the people who shell out $$$ for the game. AND while I have never been a fan of the high corruption rate, I have adapted to it, and am somewhat reconciled to it. One of the things that allowed that adjustment is having essentially a "second palace", as the Civilopedia describes it, that allows an effective core overseas from the main empire- NOTE THIS INCREASES STRATEGIC CHOICES, LIKE *WHICH* CONTINENT FOR ITS LOCATION, OR, KEEP THE FP ON ONES HOME CONTINENT??

IF one feels that it (having a second core) is making the game to easy for them, go up a notch in the level. This isn't a problem unless we are all already playing at Sid level. I don't think that is the case.

Taking away the efficicy of the FP to generate a second core, IF PLACED PROPERLY, REDUCES the intricacies of game play, at least for me, and I would suspect many others that use it in this fashion.

And note that the ai has some advantages over the player, other than the obvious ones of the Difficulty Levels advantages. The ai never gets tired and makes foolish choices, nor makes excessively emotional ones (nor gets harassed to hurry up and get off the computer by their family!). Also, there is MORE OF THEM: keep in mind that often its the player vs. the rest of the world, in the sense that the ai's will all oppose you (if not actually ally with each other). And that by definition is an entire worlds worth of ai's. Finally, if you think the ai is so disacvantaged, play at higher level game levels. And don't build a second core.

Firaxis, here this plea. Let the FP continue to be used as it has over all of Civ3 up to C3C. MANY players like it like this. My impression here on the boards is only a small number want to lose the FP's current ability to BE A SECOND PALACE.

Just my $0.02 worth.
 
Less than a handful of players have voiced any wish to retain the 1.12 FP, and Firaxis has stated that it's a bug and will be fixed. I do not think there is any need to argue for the FP to be reintroduced in Rank corruption calculations.

(If you actually want the old FP back, that's another kettle of fish.)
 
Originally posted by The Last Conformist
I have a very good idea:

Tavis, you tell us, in some detail, how the FP is supposed to work in the next patch, and those who do not want to know the inner workings of the system simply do not read the relevant post.

What makes you think that he has the faintest idea about it ? :D

From what we have seen until now, the trend is to release the patch, then try to figure what FP does :D
 
Actually, the current implementation of FP is at least historically accurate. Assume you're studying a history book and you read somewhere that "Psionians had built a Forbidden Palace in one of their cities". Would you have any idea of what the role of that FP was ? No. Do you have any idea of what the role of the FP is in the latest patch ? No.

See my point ? :D
 
@Royfurr:

I have to agree to almost any of your points!

There is a strange habit here to tell any usage of the game rules being an "exploit". Even, if this would be true, this would only concern MP games. Or games, in which I compete with others, so the GOTM.
Well, in a MP anyone could use the "exploit". But, is an exploit used by anyone, still an exploit? And even if it were, what about the good old habit of the "gentleman's agreement"?
For the GOTM the use of this "exploit" could be forbidden in the rules.

And I have to admit, I still don't see the "exploit". Even not in the Palace jump issue, since it is allowed by game rules.

To be honest, I really find it being a strange behaviour to call the ones who plea for the "old" FP as being "whining", whilst those who are tearing their hairs about "exploits" consider themselves as being devoted to the game as it was concepted.
I for my part just think, they often enough jumped like others, but didn't get far with it.
 
Interesting. Yumbo sees the Palace Jumo as a 'cheat', and Commander Bello doesn't even accept it as being a mere 'exploit'. You can obviously not please everyone ...

This probably is speaking to a mixture of the converted and the deaf, but I'll defend my analysis of it as an exploit by pointing out it's faciliated by a bug; you certainly wasn't meant to be able to do it!
 
Originally posted by The Last Conformist
I have a very good idea:

Tavis, you tell us, in some detail, how the FP is supposed to work in the next patch, and those who do not want to know the inner workings of the system simply do not read the relevant post.

:lol:
 
Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Interesting. Yumbo sees the Palace Jumo as a 'cheat', and Commander Bello doesn't even accept it as being a mere 'exploit'. You can obviously not please everyone ...

This probably is speaking to a mixture of the converted and the deaf, but I'll defend my analysis of it as an exploit by pointing out it's faciliated by a bug; you certainly wasn't meant to be able to do it!

I don't see the Palace Jump as being an exploit, because then every wonder rushing would be an exploit, as well.
Since most people do not complain about being able to rush a wonder, rushing a new palace somewhere seems to be fine with me.
As I have to admit, I never used the PJ, but as far as I know it works like this:
build a city until it is second in size, then abandon your capital. The Palace will be automatically created (so, at zero cost) in the new city, right?

Well, if this is correct than it merely makes sense only when you can move your palace for a considerable number of tiles. But then, you should really have had a hard time in coddling up that second city.
After all, I don't see the PJ as being that important, but I will admit that I might miss some experience in this case.
 
I hope you guys understand here that the current version of code do not address Palace Jump at all. Thus, it is pointless to keep going to that point when we talk about the current problem.
 
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