Conquests Misgivings

[commodified]

I still don't own Conquests, but I was thinking of picking it up soon. Then I read Sulla's "10 Ways Conquests Went Wrong," and it's totally deflated my excitement. Lethal bombardment, in particular, seems crazy broken, and just one more way for the human to destroy the Artificial Ignorance.

I was wondering what people's thoughts are on C3C's changes to the epic game. Does the good outweigh the bad? Is there some way I can buy the game for the conquest scenarios but still play vanilla CivIII 1.29f when I want?

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Luthor_Saxburg]

Lethal bombardment, in particular, seems crazy broken, and just one more way for the human to destroy the Artificial Ignorance.

Not really, maybe this was C3C without patches. Lethal Bombardment works technically OK and I think that there are very few units who actually have them in the Epic Game.
In scenarios (where it is modable) the AI uses this feature, specially against ships. At least I've lost a few ships to the AI in scenarios.

Off course AI tends to be lousy at certain things (desembarks, offensive use of artillery, etc) but I think this was already there in Vanilla.
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I was wondering what people's thoughts are on C3C's changes to the epic game. Does the good outweigh the bad? Is there some way I can buy the game for the conquest scenarios but still play vanilla CivIII 1.29f when I want?

I think C3C is much better than Vanilla. More Civ's, more units, 9 fun scenarios, more victory options, etc.
There is only one thing I dislike, which is that Armies are too strong in C3C. I'd have prefered them to stay the way they were in Vanilla.

All in all, I would clearly recommend C3C. Besides, nowadays, I'm sure there are C3C available at low prices. You can always play Vanilla if you have it but you can also build a Mod where you define the options like Vanilla (but will give you some work).
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Thanks for your thoughts.

You are welcome.

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[Grohan]

IMO you should buy Conquests because there are so much more good thing than bad things like new units, new civs and better old civs, new govs (well they aren't that good but add variety) etc. And all new fanmade scenarios and mods are C3C only.
And if you don't like lethal bombardnement you can change that in editor.

You can change between Vanilla, PTW and C3C anytime you want. I think that someone created "old style Civ 3" mod for C3C so there isn't even a need to change between the CDs.

 

[oldStatesman]

Is there some way I can buy the game for the conquest scenarios but still play vanilla CivIII 1.29f when I want?

Thanks for your thoughts.

I bought C3Complete -it installs all three versions in separate directories so you can play whichever you want. I imagine that buying them separately you can do the same thing, have each version in it's own directory.

 

[commodified]

There's a mod which makes C3C like vanilla? Interesting...

Speaking of changes in the epic game, can anybody link me to somewhere that lists the more minor changes? I'm talking more about minutiae like upgrade costs being changed and how "Industrious" was changed. Obviously I know which civs were added.

Thx

 

[vmxa]

I did not read that thread on RBC, but C3C has so many improvements over vanilla. Just the interface changes alone make it worth it. Not many go back to C3 or PTW after C3C 1.22F.

Does it have some issue, yes and so does all the versions. I know some players were very unhappy with the changes, but to each their own.

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

I have PTW, and have been thinking about getting C3C. Problem is, I don't want to spend $40 on Civ 3: Complete, because I already have 2/3 of it. Is there anywhere I can get just Conquests for cheap? ($20 or so?)

 

[Turner]

I'd look at Amazon, there should be a link on the home page. Or ebay.

 

[Arathorn]

Speaking of changes in the epic game, can anybody link me to somewhere that lists the more minor changes?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104294

Conquests Additions and Changes. In the Conquests folder. Stickied at the top, even.

Arathorn

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Seriously, C3C has one real problem: The AI no longer uses leaders to form Armies. That is especially worse since Armies are a lot stronger in C3C...
Aside from that, C3C is a huge improvement. All complains about either derive from 'They fixed an exploit I always used', or 'I have to change my usual strategies', or quite often from flaw that have been in the game since the start, but were only discovered in C3C (e.g., the AI not attacking Armies - they never did that, but since noone used Armies to such an extent, (almost) nobody really noticed).
The AGR trait is near overpowered - but, it also is the strongest trait for the AI. No AI Civ was such a capable opponent ever than C3C Sumeria with a good start.
SGLs - why are they worse than (M)GLs for rushing wonders? And hey, if you don't like them, turn them off.

That said, C3C 1.0 was a nightmare. Bit 1.22 with the Barb fix applied is the best Civ3 ever.

 

[commodified]

@Arathorn: thanks for the link. I'd be interested to hear what a player of your stature thinks of all the changes, especially lethal bombardment, the unit-giving Wonders, and the crazy armies.

EDIT: And changing the contact and map-trading techs--what do you think of that? It seems like it must change the game quite a bit.

 

[.Shane.]

I have PTW, and have been thinking about getting C3C. Problem is, I don't want to spend $40 on Civ 3: Complete, because I already have 2/3 of it. Is there anywhere I can get just Conquests for cheap? ($20 or so?)

Just got on Amazon for $15 + shipping.

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

Excelllleeeeent.....

 

[vmxa]

Doc I never really notice the AI use armies all that much anyway, now they never seem to use them.

 

[Arathorn]

Lethal land bombard is easy enough to disable in the editor. I did that a while ago. That's a trivial issue.

The pushed-back maps and communications trading is great on the face of it. The AI doesn't handle it too well, though, especially on island maps. I think communication trading should maybe be pushed back earlier, just for the AI. It's nice to explore and meet people, but the AI doesn't handle it the best.

Armies... Oh, armies. They're the biggest issue. They're like a drug. You know they're bad for you (errr...the game), but they're just so cool. You can't put them down. You can tell yourself this time it will be different, but.... I think some sort of modding is the best way to deal with those, but I've not taken that plunge yet. The AI just doesn't know what to do with large hp opponents. The thing is, that's always been true, but it wasn't as expoitive as with C3C.

The unit-giving wonders are fine. Yes, there's luck in Statue of Zeus. Yes, whoever builds it has a significant advantage. But, you know what? Building Pyramids or other things can give a marked advantage, too. And having one killer AI (which is much more prevalent in C3C than previous incarnations) does pose an additional interesting challenge for the late game. I don't find them broken, at least not for single-player play.

The improvements are nice. The FP change is good for the AI. Yes, it's a reduction in strategy, but it's not overwhelming. The fixes to corruption are absolutely essential. The Conquests themselves are fun, IMO, and a neat change from the epic game. Some (most?) have balance issues, but they alone were worth the price to me. But I'm an old fogie with a real job, so I have a different perspective on that than many here.

For me, it was definitely worth the money. YMMV, of course.

BTW, Doc, the other legitimate complaint I've heard is "This has been broken since vanilla...why didn't it get fixed?" (e.g., war weariness). Were it not for armies, the game would be harder, too...so it's probably harder, a bit, for a peaceful builder than earlier incarnations. <Shrug> I think harder is a good thing, so that doesn't bother me at all.

That's my take.
Arathorn

 

[commodified]

Thanks a lot for your thoughts, Arathorn.