Constitution Discussion : Article J

[Cyc]

Four hours is fine by me.

 

[Falcon02]

I do not see the t/c war being revived here. I was refering to a condition where say me, eyrei, cyc, and donsig were talking in #civfanatics, decided X was the right course of action posted it 2 hours before the t/c saw no objections in the forums, since few may have seen it, and thus determined that no one objected because everyone agreed.

My example had NOTHING to do with the "will of the people" in the t/c.

The Turnchat Instruction thread should be complete 1-2 hours before the t/c itself if possible. If that's what you're refering to as being finalized.

 

[Immortal]

ah thats the difference though, youve followed the law exactly, I would have absolutely no problem with this, it was done 2 hours before, and there were no objections.

In your situation, are your positions relevent to the changes youve requested? you arent governors who decided to change the science research were you>?

 

[Falcon02]

ah thats the difference though, youve followed the law exactly, I would have absolutely no problem with this, it was done 2 hours before, and there were no objections.

In your situation, are your positions relevent to the changes youve requested? you arent governors who decided to change the science research were you>?

A.) now objections can mean no one who had objections got a chance to see it based on relatively limited exposure to the forum before the t/c started.

B.) I'm not sure what you mean in your second portion...

All I'm saying is an opinion which hasn't been in the forums very long, which has not been objected (or at least seen numerous posts of support) in that short time can not be concidered a basis for determining the will of the people. Unless sufficient time is given to allow for objections.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I still think that 2 hours is fine, but feel free to tweak it. I defined this article a bit better so that a leader cannot just post their devious plans in a defunct Citizen Group thread and still have that action be legal. Plus it recognizes the TCI thread in our Constitution. What do you think?

Article J.  Elected officials must plan and act according to the will 
            of the people. The will of the people will be determined 
            through discussion and polls, formal or informal. If [i]pertinent[/i] 
            discussion is done outside the scope of the DG forums, then it must 
            be documented [i]in the Turnchat Instruction Thread[/i] 2 hours
            prior to the commencement of the turnchat [i]by the appropriate 
            leader[/i].

EDIT: added "the"

 

[Immortal]

okay falc, how long is sufficent time? 24 hours I think you said earlier?

I foresee a poll

 

[Cyc]

If you put the word "the" in front of the word "scope" it's fine by me. 4 hours would have worked also.

 

[Falcon02]

Okay what are we talking about here?

Defining what can be concidered "The will of the people" or setting a deadline for posting T/C instructions?!

I thought we were doing one, then started to address the other to be added on... Now I'm wondering if it's just one of 'em.....

Edit: Immortal I say 12 hours actually, 24 hours I see as a bit too long, not allowing certain things from being raised the day of the t/c 12 hours I believe gives sufficient time for that, and ensures that plenty of time is given for dissenters to view the thread and voice their opinion. Of course we could also just leave this out, and let the people use their best judgement. I just saw the previous version allowing for such legal claims of "knowing the will of the people" based on items which really haven't been discussed in the forums.

 

[Immortal]

Im talking about deadline.

 

[DaveShack]

Sorry, I did not mean to reopen the "turnchat war" -- on the contrary I was merely pointing out that the situation covered by this discussion is not the same thing.

I like a long advance warning "we're going to have a chat to discuss this issue", or even better just open a discussion on the issue.

As someone who often has trouble posting instructions a long time before the scheduled chat time due to collision between time zones and the baby's schedule of waking up in the middle of the night, I'm opposed to setting a long window for when instructions have to be finalized. Given a 4 hour window I'd probably have to post instructions the day before, even if the people haven't finished commenting on a subject.

 

[Cyc]

Okay what are we talking about here?

Defining what can be concidered "The will of the people" or setting a deadline for posting T/C instructions?!

I thought we were doing one, then started to address the other to be added on... Now I'm wondering if it's just one of 'em.....

Consider the WOTP a beam of light and Posted Instructions as a prism. The WOTP is transformed into action by means of the Instructions. We need to substaniate a time limit for posted Instructions to have documents justified as the WOTP.

 

[Immortal]

Okay, obviously there is a wide diversity amongst opinions as to how long timely is.

Would a poll suffice or can a compromise be reached? Id hate to have a rule for timely manner that causes community members like DaveShack from participating due to time contraints.

 

[Falcon02]

Okay, the wording of previous proposals confused me.

On the issue of a deadline for posting instructures, I'd say 4-2 hours before. Maybe with one or two "warnings" should the leader run late due to RL or such and so long as the instructions are posted by the time of the t/c. I can see someone getting stuck in traffic, posting instructions 30 minutes before the t/c and facing legal action as a result.

EDIT: My 12 hour time was for something unrelated due to my confusion from the wording.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Notice that currently the t-minus-2 hour deadline applies only to discussions held outside THE scope groucho of the forums. So maybe we can sidestep this issue after all.

Does a TCI posting deadline really need to be placed in our Constitution? Discuss.

ok, I am really going to bed now..........

 

[Immortal]

exellent point DZ. I think that may work for everyone.

Forums can have debate up until the very last minute. OUTSIDE conversations however must be done within 2 hours. If we agree on this note I move we extend that minimum amount of time to at least 6 hours.

 

[Falcon02]

OUTSIDE conversations however must be done within 2 hours.

See this is the part which confused me. Assuming this is refering to whether it can be determined an indicator of the will of the people, I think I could agree with 6 hours, though I still feel 12 hours might be more appropriate.

 

[Cyc]

This is great. We all understand each other.

Six or twelve hours is good for me.

 

[Immortal]

Ill wait until morning and see what other posters have to say about the length of time.

 

[Immortal]

Unless noted otherwise I will move forward with a 6 hour time minimum for outside discussions to be finalized.

 

[Immortal]

Ratification Poll Now Open:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=94837